Before you start reading may I recommend the following actions to get into the same mindset and better be able to comprehend the document.



and now onto the fun




Mr. Rob Perin

Dear Mr. Perin:
I apologize for sending this via email, but I cannot locate a physical address to which I can send a hard copy.
We have received a number of comments about the “cancellation” of the Northwest Yotajam. First, it is not our policy or intent to deny legitimate use of National Forest System lands. Due to miscommunication, for which we will take full responsibility, we were unable to conclusively determine if the “Yotajam” was indeed legitimate in the time available to us. I apologize for the inconvenience our notification may have caused.

There are steps event organizers can take to significantly reduce the probability of situations like this one. Issuing a permit for a recreation event and many other types of special uses is much more rigorous than most proponents realize. Each proposal must be thoroughly evaluated for its effects on the environment and documented under the requirements of the National Environmental Policy Act. In addition, proponents must provide proof of required insurance coverage and a plan for addressing safety, sanitation and operation of the event. Implicit in the operating plan is identifying locations and times that avoid conflicts with other events or activities. We host a number of recreation events each year, including large motorized groups. It may be necessary to utilize alternate dates or locations to avoid schedule conflicts. We advise organizers to present their proposals a minimum of 180 days in advance of their event. We have a large workload and that allows sufficient time to complete the analysis and make any adjustments well in advance of the event. In this case, the initial contact with the district was far short of the 180 days; therefore, it is unlikely a permit could have been issued under the best of circumstances.

The website you referenced concerning the criteria for requiring a special use permit addresses the major items in making a determination, but is not an exhaustive list. Having a complete proposal allows us to confidently determine if a permit is indeed required. Even for events that do not require permits, an advance proposal provides us the opportunity to advise organizers of potential conflicts and offer suggestions to make their experience more enjoyable.

In this case, the initial telephone contact described a loosely organized, local event—a few families and friends coming to the district to drive trails. We responded that a permit was not likely required, but encouraged submission of a proposal for review. No proposal was received. The Yakima County Sheriff’s Office brought the “Yotajam” website/bulletin board to our attention on July 29 inquiring if this event were permitted. Our review of the website gave numerous indications of a well-organized event that appeared to require a permit. Your prompt response to our inquiry about the nature of the event was appreciated, but there was insufficient
Mr. Rob Perin page 2.

time to conclusively determine the permit status of the event. We then advised you of our opinion that continuation of the event would likely constitute a violation of Federal Regulations.


There are multiple hundreds of thousand recreation visits to the Okanogan and Wenatchee National Forests each year. Balancing the growing demand for recreation opportunities with maintaining the environment that supports those opportunities is becoming increasingly difficult. We recognize our role as stewards of these lands and resources for all citizens of the United States. Implicit in that stewardship responsibility is vigilance for activities that could adversely affect those lands and resources. Events involving groups of users have the potential to alter conditions dramatically and quickly. Consequently, we try to give them appropriate attention. Occasionally, our assessment of a situation is incorrect—we do make mistakes. Given more time to review the situation, it is entirely possible I would have reached a different conclusion in this case.

Again, I apologize for the inconvenience that resulted. I trust that we have addressed your concerns. We would welcome the opportunity to host a future event. Your cooperation in establishing early contact and providing complete information will help assure proper processing and improve the probability of a successful event on National Forest System lands.

Sincerely,

Randall D. Shepard
RANDALL D. SHEPARD
District Ranger

cc: Anthony Hanses
David Olson
Ben Stauffer
Matt Albertson
Wade Young
Eric Corwin
David Bienvenue

 

That thing reaks...Randy is well versed in BS.

He almost apologized...but then completely turned it around.

We certainly need a more cut-and-dry recipe for what necessitates getting a permit for an event. If you're planning 180 days in advance then that's pretty ˟˟˟˟˟˟˟ organized. But that's not what we need...we need other rules - like numbers of people, numbers of vehicles, etc.

Here's what I suggest...we all need to start putting in proposals to use the land next Spring...whether we're going alone or with a dozen rigs. We need to force them to see that they need guidelines...not this wishy-washy crap.

Jim

 

it upsets me that i got this letter....he just bull shooted his way through it....what a loser, he couldnt even spell my friggin name right...its wade youngs

not wade young... oh well

i think that we need to put in for permits every weekend in the summer for 100 people to 4x4, then if we want we can go!

later

wade

 

I included it in my earlier posting of the doc, but I will include it here as well...

If you think this thing reeks, feel free to speak you mind. Ranger Randy's personal email is; rdshepard@fs.fed.us

I will be following up with some of his superiors over the next couple days.

 

While I agree that the way the entire situation was handled by the forest service stinks, I actually thought Randy's letter was a good explanation and yes, a partial apology.

Speaking as a person who also organizes such events, I understand the complexity of what is required to get all this stuff underway. it's not as easy as getting everyone one together and say let's go - don't we wish it was.

The comment that concerns me is that he said (whether it's true or not, I don't know) that when he first spoke with organizers the event was described as a few friends and families getting together AND that a proposal was requirested. If that's true, then the event wasn't as it was proposed and a proposal wasn't submitted.

Let's all come out of this on a positive note. The orginaizers put on a great effort in getting this thing going and it would of been a huge success I'm sure, but, let's not burn birdged behind us. Sometimes you have to lose the battle to win the war and learn when to make a strategic retreat.

They've heard you now, IMO, it's time to stop. You'll do more good if you thank Randy for better explaning this now and ask to sit down with him now to set up next years event. Don't make the Forest Service the enemy by keeping them out. Try to make them your friend by inviting them along. I think the meeting that Rob and others went to was a fantastic success in setting a tone. We are pissed, but we want to more forward on making events like this work better. Ask what you can do for them that might help you get a permit ie scratch their backs a little. A cleanup somewhere or help ina project can go a long way towards getting things to sway your way. So can getting someone like Randy or his bosses, to feel like they have some ownership in the outcome. If you make them feel like they have a stake in this and they'l want to make it a go for next year.

You have a great thing going here, it's time to be adult. You've all done a great job at expressing your points and from what I've seen it's all been done very professionally, Don't let your anger about this cancelation get in the way of next years event.

BTW, Preacher Rob was a comment that I had a good laugh at!

 

Sorry Gibby, I don't think you're grasping the whole picture.

The whole idea of Yotajam was run past an official of Randy's...not once, but twice. Both times they concurred that the event was either small enough, or informal enough to not require a permit.

Out of absolutely no-where, Randy tells Rob to call off the event.

...and his reasoning...?

"Uh, it appears that this event is big...and uh, even though I have no factual/tangible evidence...uh, you should have gotten a permit from us."

We need rules and regulations, so every group who wants to have a gathering/event is treated the same. Not only groups who do cleanups, etc. Doing a cleanup, etc. is a totally self-less act, and all clubs should not expect special treatment in return. When it comes down to it, none of the clubs pay Randy's salary any more than the next. They just develop more of a sense of pride in the land.

(On a side note, I don't think a trail cleanup is a bad idea. In fact we should probably get planning since we'll need at least 180 days notice for such event.)

How can you say "...it's time to stop..." when it has only just begun?

Jim

 

I don't think I missed any part of the picture, but what's done is done. A choice has to be made on how to proceed forward, not how to complain about what's happened. I'm just giving my opinion abou two reach a goal. There's more than one way to get to an end point. My recommendation is to let bygones be bygones (sp?). Further complaining and arguing about what happened will do nothing to further the goal of improving relationships or getting this event underway next year.

 

It's hardly about relationships though. This is public land, and Randy is in a public office.

This is not his little playground where he can decide who gets to play with the shovel and bucket, and who can take a hike.

As long as everyone plays by the rules, they should all get a turn with the "shovel and bucket".

The problem is that there are no rules, at least not in writing. Permission to "play" seems to be at the whim of the Forest Circus...that's just lame.
Rules should be allowed to change over time (I won't argue that), but at any given point - we need rules and we need them to be followed.

Ok, enough rambling from me...

Jim

 

Rules matter, no one disagrees with that. They have rules, you just didn't get to see them all. It's also very difficult in situations like this. Suppose a rule said that if you had over 100 rigs, or paid fee, or sponsors, or etc, Do you have to meet one or all. Who get's to decide and make the final decision. That's why we have judges in a court of law as well. There's a great deal of interpretation in any law or rule and you can't forsee and plan for every possibility. That's when it comes back to people and relationships. If you have a good relationship with the people you are working with, you're more likely to get a favor when you need it. If you don't have a good relationship, you're more likely to get shafted on a technicality that could have been overlooked.

 

I'll address these two comments, but otherwise, you guys have a great dialogue going and I don't want to interfere.

1. I can't say what Randy was told or even IF he was told about the event when I first contacted the Forest Circus. I spoke to "Mike", who turns out to be Lloyd Hiler, the guy in charge of the "special" permits office of the Naches Ranger District. When I described the event to Mike, I was careful to be painfully accurate. HE heard EXACTLY what the event eventually ended up being. A cooperative event among more than one clubs members, organized runs with trail leaders, a class in off-roading fundamentals, show & shine type events in camp AND the possibility of an RTI ramp. Etcettera, etcettera. There was NO confusion at the time of the conversation.

2. I have always thought I would make a good evangalist, but for one small detail. Perhaps I should look into whether I need a permit to start a cult instead... hehehhehehh

I now return you to our regularly scheduled discussion.

 

But But But Rob your the fuel to the fire were trying to keep burning under Ranger Dicks bottom side. Even if we play the game his way next year Randy will still find a way to keep us out. I see him making it hell for us to step foot with an invitation into HIS forest. He is not going to say "oh guys im sorry bout last year I want to make it up to you" He will hit us up with permit costs,insurance costs,not to mention if the day came we held an event his circus clowns on the trails writing tickets as we attempted having fun. Tickets he would write would be defective equiptment on some rigs that when in a city is perfectly legal. He makes up the law as he goes. We need to do everything the same as we did this year for next years event without asking permission. That is where I am hearing from many offroaders about what mistake we made. Many guy& gals go up there without asking and do so without issue ive heard. We have a year to plan for Yota Jam 2004 and we should carefully do it. I still think Ranger Randy is himself on this board or knows someone that is and that is how he gets his info. I do not believe that a deputy sheriff from Yakima County just happened to be surfing the web and "oh wow looks what I found, I better call Ranger Randy and tell him to get the calvary". Hes pointing fingers in a direction we would not likely look. He does not have courage to stand up for his the wrongdoing he has done to Yota Jam 2003. If the event cordinators want to do things by the book I suggest not asking permission from the Naches Station. I suggest calling the Cle Elum Station being I have heard they both control those mountains. I heard this from in a post on a different site and do not know this to be a fact so dont kill me if im wrong. Ok ive talked enough to talk myself tired. Later

 

I am still ticked off at this whole thing, as a lot of people put their time and effort into this, and the circus did not seem to mind fubaring.

Do we even have to tell them about next years event?
Everyone just show up at the date that it's planned.

We have had many runs, although they are small ones in the past when we get together at the Safeway in Enumclaw.
Those are preplanned and organized, as well as the YotaJam from two summers ago.

We have never checked in before with them to see if it's alright, and the last Fall Colors run we had quite a few show up.
I just don't think it's even necessary to tell them a thing, but I could be wrong.
After all, it's just a camping trip with some side activity of going on a few trails, right

 

I say we call it Jeep Jam then Ranger Dick will be nice to us. Damn that Jeep lover anyway. No offense Anthony, you know I like your Jeep.

 

why not just let everyone turn up on their own and not be an organised event , what can they do if youi all turn up seperatly?
if they ask just say it is a coincdent that you all just happened to pick that day to turn up. it is open to the public and thats just what you are, public just going about your own thing, it just happens that there is 100 of you doing it all at the same time.

 

Folks, you can't just have everyone show up, or it WILL be disorganized, not just unorganized. If you want to get people out, you have to advertise. If you advertise peopleyou don't want to find out. will find out. Unless you decided to restrict this to Yotatech members only and limit the board viewing permissions to registered members only, AND preapprove all members personally after having them sign a waiver that they are not Ranger Rick and that they will not turn anyone in to Ranger Rick, then they are going to find out. It's already red flagged.

You have to get over the issue of being pissed at the Forest Service and learn to work with them, not against them. They are the controling body. If you are organizing an event your are going to require permit fees, insurance fees etc. If you don't have insurance and something happens - your screwed. We all know that waivers are virtually useless. The organizers of the event can personally be sued because someone rolled down a hill. On top of that it might take a year to figure out insurance plans - it's not easy getting insurance for something like this, trust me. It cost me $1200 for one day's coverage for our July 4th Obstacle course and that was for 200 rigs and 500 people, maximum.

I don't know how many of you have to deal with negotations in real life (Is there a real life outside of wheeling? Oh yeah, that's how we pay to go wheeling ). You cannot approach this with the attitude of he's a idiot and I'll show him. You can recognize that he's an idiot and use that to your advantage. Recognize the strength and weaknesses in your opponents. Some strengths you'll want to take advantage of, i.e he's very honest and willing to work with us - that would be a strength you take advantage of. Others... he's a powerful salesman and knows how to make you think that he's right even if you know he's wrong. This is a strength that you want to work on trying to avoid. A weakness such as... he's a enviromentalist whacko and doesn't like 4 wheelers. This could be used both ways. Appeals to his desire to preserve the environment by doing things outside of the event to show that you to care about the environment (BTW, these should not ever be seen as conditional on event approval as he will see right through it and use it to his advantage.) and at the same time, avoid that weakness by making sure you don't bring up issues that might offend his personal views.

I know I'm rambling but I want to make my point, and then you can do with it, what you want.

I give one last example, look at the last presidential election that went to the Supreme Court to finally get a victory for the good guys (OK, it's out of the bag, I'm Republican.) With the exact same evidence in front of them and the exact same laws and rules to examine, the vote basically went along party lines. Even at that high a level, personal beliefs and relationships with the people involved (through their political association) was the determining factor. If you burn the relationship with the Forest Service this will event never happen and if you try to have the event under the radar, you'll get a repeat in 2004. Given the current warnings and information that you've been given, this could even result in charges being filed against the organizers since now they can't say that they didn't know.

 

[prattle on]

Just so Gibby isn't standing alone here, I have to agree (loudly) that barking at someone you *will* need later, even if you are right, is never in your best interest.

Moving forward, before you send any message, ask yourself "Am I trying to make things better for next year, or am I venting my spleen because I'm still p**sed off? "

As someone who has had every kind of bad communication on earth in business, I'd offer some guidelines to think about:

1. Never send email when you're ticked off. Tell them in person first, or on the phone if you can't do it in person. Notice that email isn't in that list anywhere!

2. Never, EVER use an obscenity or insult in any business communication. They will immediately throw out your communication, or totally dig in their heels to cause you pain and suffering. See rule 1. You probably wouldn't say it to their face, don't put it in email. (Any sentence that includes the word "sucks" or "I think you're..." are good candidates for review here! )


Now, up to this point, I think Rob and Co. have done an outstanding job of representing our interests, in a totally professional way. Keep this up, and we'll have a very high credit rating with these folks.

Right now, I imagine Ranger Randy would probably be pretty cooperative if we started working *with* him on next years event, since a) he know's we were seriously inconvenienced, and b) noone has called him a <insert normal yotatech comment> in any communications (as far as I know).

And it may be an even *bigger* pain for the organizers, but why not just go into next years event shooting for a "organized", permitted event. Yeah, it'll cost us all some bucks, but I bet it'd be even a better event for it. (If that's possible!)


Remember, in politics (and dealing with any other human *is* politics), right and wrong don't matter. Civility and personal opinions are far more important.

(I've obliquely been on the "winning" side of a lawsuit where we were technically right, but I assure you, law or no, we came out the losers in the end.)

[end prattle]

 

There's some interesting points being made in this thread and there is a lot to think about.

I understand the "you'll catch more flies with sugar than you will with vinegar" sentiment that is being expressed and to an extent I agree with it.

On the other hand, this IS public land and thus I believe that access should be equal opportunity and the rules should be available and published so that you know what you are up against.

Personally, I have a problem with ranger district becoming someones own little fiefdom, where the rules are subject to the whims of the person "in charge".

Further, I don't feel it is unreasonable to ask that rules in individual districts be consistent with the rules in other districts and that these rules be equally applied for all.

I DO have a problem with making nice simply because someone may have something I may want later. I believe that public servants should be accountable for their actions and I believe that when they make a bad decision, it is my responsiblilty as a citizen to call them on it.

I have no intention of making this in anyway personal, but I do believe that the decision by Ranger Randy was arbitrary and I believe that he thinks so too.

There is nothing I can do about YotaJam 2003, the moment has passed. But, I CAN do something to ensure that when others try to plan an event in the Naches district, they encounter regulations that are consistent with other districts and that are equitably applied.

 

Rob, correct me if I'm wrong...but one of the aspects of YJ2k3 was to keep costs down - or even non-existent if possible. That was the idea of having a small gathering, where no permit would be required, no insurance necessary, no entrance fee, and no Honey-Bucket rental. It was, in essence, just like any normal 4x4 run - with more participants than average.

Gibby, it must be nice to have the deep-pockets of your church behind you...to fund this type of event. I think the spirit of the event was to continue with the Spirit of Yotatech and WA-TTORA...and keep this thing absolutely free. For some reason when Randy read the information about YJ2k3, he assumed it was a fee-based event. There was no evidence to support this.

It's true, we will have to work with them...as even they cannot make up their minds about the rules. That's the plan, to get them off their lazy bums and draw up a few regulations. All they need is a basic pamphlet stating: "If your event meets any one of these criteria, then you need to submit a proposal to us."

At this point all I can assume is that you need to submit a proposal even if you plan on driving up alone to ride some of the FS roads. That will take me quite some time to draw up a proposal for every single weekend next season, so I won't have to worry about being harassed if I'm up there.

Jim

 

That is entirely correct. Neither club charges dues and as such, it was the organizers goal to make this a completely free event. Any costs that were involved were personally covered by the organizers themselves, along with their time. Signage, web hosting, etc., it was all personal expenses. We had originally planned on having Sani-Cans out there, but the cost was going to be WAY more than anyone wanted to eat, so I had arranged with some friends for them to bring their motorhomes out so that we would have a way of keeping T.P. "flowers" from blooming everywhere.

The essence of the event was just like any WATTORA or for that matter, YotaTech, event. Some friends getting together to enjoy our public land. It just happens that both clubs were holding their get together at the same time and because of the co-club nature of the event, we had some people on the list who don't ordinarilly make the journey to the smaller day trips.

The event was;

1. Non-commercial in nature, with NO money changing hands.
2. Small in size, (only 48 rigs RSVP'd
3. Self contained (the restrooms were taken care of)
4. Educational in nature (lots of newbies, lots of training planned)

 

Why should we kiss his butt? Its public land, were the public and have every right to be there. If we started planning out tomorrow for next years event he would do everything exactly the same. He would say "yeah yall come on out here with your event. no permit required no money needed". He would turn around three days before that event and say "uh I never said no permit or a free ride you need to file 180 days prior". How can we trust this clown now? He has earned our DISTRUST! He lied to us, he ruined a weekend of fun,and threatened us that even if we did show up we would be slapped with federal fines. How can you trust someone that did that to you? I do not see kissing his a$$ at this point or any point in the future just so we can camp under the BIG TOP.