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Land Usage & Off Road Responsibility Discussion pertaining to the education of proper land usage, closures, and responsible off road driving

In between a rock and a muddy place...

Old 08-22-2007, 11:25 PM
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If and I say if your gonna start limiting the pics of people mudding legal or presumed illegal then isn't that just another way of censorship and taking away someones freedom of speech???

Why not just let the picture in question be voted on by the members and if it reaches a set point that could be considered a majority then pull it but let the membership make that call not just one or two people make that decision.

I know that there are a few people here that pretty much run the site but if you let the membership decide then you may find there's a lot more here that are of the same mindset and will work as a majority not as a hierarchy.

This will also derail anyone claiming that they are singled out by the staff here and will make the membership feel more like we have a stake in this site as much if not more then the couple staff members still in charge.

Not to stir the pot but if I remember not long ago there was a huge uproar in the staff here over pretty much the same things so if its a majority rules then you will avoid a repeat of the same issues with different circumstances.

That said most people here know right form wrong and its not hard to see in pictures either, I believe that it will be handled be the membership just fine if givin the chance to make a difference here.

take that from everyone a you have a dictatorship and most people will start to look elsewhere for the sense of feeling they have a opinion that matters as much as the next person.

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Old 08-23-2007, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by olharleyman View Post
If and I say if your gonna start limiting the pics of people mudding legal or presumed illegal then isn't that just another way of censorship and taking away someones freedom of speech???
I do not see it as censorship so much.
If illegal pictures were to stay up here, we stand a good chance of loosing our Tread Lightly! partnership, as having those pictures up here looks like we are promoting and going on along with "illegal" activities.

It is illegal to tear up land like that, and believe me, there are groups out there saving these pictures to help in the battle to close mine/yours trails down.

And this is why this thread exists so the membership here can help with the policing of such illegal activity.
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Old 08-23-2007, 06:00 AM
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So let's clear up a couple of a couple of things...

The debate is not over whether photo of illegal activities will be removed, they will. The discussion is about how best to decide what is illegal and then how to deal with it. The option of leaving that stuff on here is not on the table. What we are looking for is a consensus as to the best way to go from there... Plainly there are shades of gray and the hope is to find a process for making the removal of illegal material as straight forward and predictable as is possible.

Keep in mind that it's not a matter of majority rules. Ultimately we are in Corey and Chris' house and they get the final say.

That leads me to another point that isn't directly a part of this thread, but it's been touched upon here, so I will address it in context...

Regarding "freedom of speech" and "censorship": People throw these words around without really understanding what they mean or how they apply. It's a classic case of a little knowledge being dangerous. These are legal terms, which means that there is a place where they apply and many places they do not. Both are freedoms that are not unlimited, even where they apply. The legal concept applies to the GOVERNMENT not limiting your speech or censoring you. However, even then, neither are absolute. You are not free to commit slander, perjury, or to yell "fire" in a crowded theater. The idea is that you are free to disagree with the government, but beyond that, there are significant limits.

Where the armchair users of those terms fall down, is that they latch onto them, wave them around and repeat them like a mantra and don't get that they don't necessarily apply outside of that limited scope. Sure, they are great concepts, but if there are limits on their scope even within context, there are even greater limits outside of that context.

For example. I bet I would not be allowed to sit in your living room for very long, if I started speaking in terms so graphic and so contrary to what you believe in, that you had to send your kids and wife out of the room and you were having difficulty not hitting me for the things I was saying. You would stand up and ask me to leave and call the cops if wouldn't. What happened to my freedom of speech there? Well, it conflicted with your right to enjoy your property and guess which won? We wouldn't have it any other way.

Now, keep in mind that this forum and most others are not run by the government. That means that you agree to certain rules when you join and remain. This not a "free for all". Even Pirate has rules you can break that will get you banned and they are pretty "flexible" when it comes to language. Go post a thread in "Off Topic" calling Roxy a lesbian, keep it up after you are warned and see how long you last...

The point is that we are all guests of the admins here. Period. The speech allowed here is what they say is allowed here. If you don't like that, find a forum where the speech you want to use is allowed. There are thousands of forums on the net for that very reason, varied interests. That is the case at ANY forum. I don't know of ANY where EVERYTHING goes... Not a one... We are in a "house" belonging to the admins.

Any successful forum admin will go out of their way to accommodate the wishes of their members, within reason. That is how they build successful forums. But, there are limits and those limits are not necessarily set by "majority rules".

So, when you throw around terms like "censorship" and "freedom of speech", please understand how they apply or don't apply to a situation and keep in mind that while we all hold those ideals dearly, they are not a free pass to do what you want when you are in someone else's house. The mods are here to enforce the wishes of the admins, although we try to do so with an eye toward the wishes of the membership at the same time.

Sorry that got so long, maybe it should have been it's own thread, but people kept throwing the terms around and I started typing...

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Old 08-23-2007, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by olharleyman View Post

Why not just let the picture in question be voted on by the members and if it reaches a set point that could be considered a majority then pull it but let the membership make that call not just one or two people make that decision.

Becasue laws aren't arbitrary. You can't let the majority decide whats right and wrong, with the immoral state of todays society that wouldnt make much illegal. Laws are not arbitrarily defined, they are set standards of right and wrong, you can't decide what is right and wrong, they are not open to interpretation, they are STANDARDS. You can't get a bunch of people together and vote on a 10 inch stick and say it is a foot long. Its not a foot is 12 inches standard.

Look up standard in the dictionary.

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Old 08-23-2007, 07:06 AM
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As a private enterprise, this site can censor whatever the hell it wants. As Rob pointed out, only the government is restricted by those laws.

As I stated, you are going to piss people off. Who cares? They can go elsewhere. I think they will find that many sites are cracking down the same way. TreadLightly is being taken seriously everywhere, even Pirate.
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Old 08-23-2007, 02:58 PM
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Anyway, What about the people on this thread who are trying to come up with solutions to this problem????? There are some good ideas that have surfaced(my idea included ) . Isn't this thread about trying to solve the issue of how to deal with pics of illegal wheeling??? Or do the controllers of this site already have an agenda, that they will follow reguardless fo what we say here??? I'm just wondering, because now that some people have brought freedom of speech up, It has pretty much shut down any constructive ideas on how to go about solving this problem. Any other ideas on how to solve this issue?????????
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:05 PM
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Yes, I have a hidden agenda.
You will hand over your title to your rig to me at once.

Seriously, we want to hear your ideas.
That is what this thread is for.

As far as Rob saying that illegal pics will not remain here, that is our focus here right?
We do not want the pictures falling into the wrong hands, threads being saved as ammo against ALL offroaders thus spoiling it for all.

Whether you want to admit or acknowledge it, there is a war going on to shut down our trails.
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Old 08-23-2007, 03:37 PM
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How about all pictures of vehicles off road must site the trail name/location? If you are wheeling legally, I would think you can easily provide the location and some kind of identification of the trail. If some one really wanted to, they could track down the exact trail and verify the legality of it.
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Old 08-23-2007, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Turbo4Runner View Post
How about all pictures of vehicles off road must site the trail name/location? If you are wheeling legally, I would think you can easily provide the location and some kind of identification of the trail. If some one really wanted to, they could track down the exact trail and verify the legality of it.
I think the idea has some merit, but let me play devil's advocate...

First, how do we enforce that? Delete posts that don't have info?

Second, suppose I go to the Rubicon trail (legal), but then post pictures of me in the closed zone near spider lake (illegal)? My point is that if people are wheeling illegally, telling a lie on a message board and bending the truth or outright lying about where the pics came from isn't going to be a stretch for them. We could still end with pictures of people doing illegal things in illegal places, but it would get left up because they said it was in their own yard...
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Old 08-23-2007, 04:52 PM
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Whew, it's been a long read here.

I'll be brief in an effort to minimize the time future readers will spend catching up.

Self-policing via users reporting suspect pics\vids\text is the only way it can be done without admin's spending an inordinate time doing the policing (the automated protections suggested can be easily bypassed).
Admins will then question the posters after receiving a report and make a determination.

I approve of your efforts to lessen the "ammo" available to people and organizations opposed to off-road vehicles and I will support the site however the new rules are implemented.

That being said, I would hope that every time I posted pics\vids of me or mine busting down trees or plowing around in the creek, that I wouldn't be questioned. All my pics\vid are from private property (miobi.org) and so all the damage is legal. Or, more accurately, not illegal.

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Old 08-23-2007, 05:23 PM
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I pulled all my pics of offroad activity from yotatech. Some how I feel like we've already given up here without a fight. Well, without what I'd call a fight. I truly feel defeated. How much more should we give(not give)them? I suppose this is o.k. to let our site be misused in such a way. Let's not stand up and tell these Eco-Terrorists where to go. By all means let's not do that. We only outnumber them many thousand times over. We don't stand up for our cause here, we hide it shamefully in the closet know. Now WE are to accuse each other lest they get the chance to do it first. What do we win there? More power to them it looks like. We should all chip in and send them a huge golden trophy worth an inscription that reads "Congratulations! All "Mudding" is now illegal".

Ah well, doesn't keep me from doing the thing I do. Just "makes" it a crime, because someone with a particularly skewed view "could" see it that way. Not because law enforcement/or a land owner has informed me of such. Or because my fellow offroad enthusiasists have demanded such in an effort to weed out the trouble makers. Just becuase they say it is wrong and back it up with a load of cleverly arranged propaganda(BUKU BS LEFT-WING EXTREMISM, PUHLEEEEEASE. Talk about get a clue). Or is it really because you guys think I'm some kind of criminal? I must be the VERY intimidating type then, because NOBODY wanted to confront me personally with any questions regarding the "right&wrong" of any of the pics I've posted. Hmmm....maybe most of you think that it shouldn't be questioned. Or like I said, maybe I've instilled some kind of fear.

From the book "Sometimes A Good Notion" by Ken Kesey(of "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" fame) I'll quote:
The Stamper Family Motto
"Never Give An Inch"
They've taken the mile. Said they'd be back for more soon.

Now ban me, I guess. Pretty well ashamed of all you guys at this point anyway.

Last edited by MudHippy; 09-04-2007 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 08-23-2007, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MudHippy View Post
We only outnumber them many thousand times over.
That is where you're SORELY mistaken. On a nationwide scale, the greenies greatly outnumber the 4wheelers. If you take all the drunken rednecks (I don't mean that as a derogatory reference to rednecks) which are giving us a bad name due to abusive practices, out of the 4wheeler group, the gap is even more profound.

It is critical that each of us support Tread Lightly, Blue Ribbon Coalition, Stay the Trail, etc if we want to continue to enjoy access to our natural spaces.
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Old 08-23-2007, 06:06 PM
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"True wisdom is less presuming than folly. The wise man doubteth often, and changeth his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubteth not; he knoweth all things but his own ignorance."

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Old 08-23-2007, 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted by MudHippy View Post
I pulled all my pics of offroad activity from yotatech. Some how I feel like we've already given up here without a fight. Well, without what I'd call a fight. I truly feel defeated. How much more should we give(not give)them? I suppose this is o.k. to let our site be misused in such a way. Let's not stand up and tell these Eco-Terrorists where to go. By all means let's not do that. We only outnumber them many thousand times over. We don't stand up for our cause here, we hide it shamefully in the closet know. Now WE are to accuse each other lest they get the chance to do it first. What do we win there? More power to them it looks like. We should all chip in and send them a huge golden trophy worth an inscription that reads "Congratulations! All "Mudding" is now illegal".

Ah well, doesn't keep me from doing the thing I do. Just "makes" it a crime, because someone with a particularly skewed view "could" see it that way. Not because law enforcement/or a land owner has informed me of such. Or because my fellow offroad enthusiasists have demanded such in an effort to weed out the trouble makers. Just becuase they say it is wrong and back it up with a load of cleverly arranged propaganda(BUCHU BS LEFT-WING EXTREMISM, PUHLEEEEEASE. Talk about get a clue). Or is it really becuase you guys think I'm some kind of criminal? I must be the VERY intimidating type then, because NOBODY wanted to confront me personally with any questions regarding the "right&wrong" of any of the pics I've posted. Hmmm....maybe most of you think that it shouldn't be questioned. Or like I said, maybe I've instilled some kind of fear.

From the book "Sometimes A Good Notion" by Ken Kesey(of "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" fame) I'll quote:


They've taken the mile. Said they'd be back for more soon.

Now ban me, I guess. Pretty well ashamed of all you guys at this point anyway.
What?

Perhaps you missunderstand the problem here. We may "outnumber" the "ecoterroists" as you put it, but we don't care. As you said, Tread Lightly has no place in oregon. So, while we have thousands more, and you can tell them where to stick it, they have money, and lobby power far, far exceeding ours.

Are you willing to step up, create a lobby, and go to your state and local Gov't and provide them with campaign contributions, and a voter base that will sway them into keeping our trails open? If so, awesome. But, i doubt it.

I'm not sure where this "fight" is that you think we have given up on. It seems you feel that we should not police ourselves, should not watch out for our own kind, and make sure we are responsible. Rather, it seems you want to "take on" the greens, although I have no idea how you would do that.

This war is being fought on a political stage, and the other side has all the money and power, and we've got very little. Because people don't care. They feel it is their God-Given right to 4wheel, and maybe it is. But the environmental lobby could care less.

Your attitude really suprises me. You have built a sweet truck, wheel it a lot, yet seem to think that any internal regulation is bad? All the money you spent on mods is going to be pretty cool when you are regulated to only driving on the street.

If we could all obey the rules, and keep our own on the trails, and not doing resource damage, then it would be very difficult to shut trails down. But we provide so many reasons, so many infractions, that we basically shoot ourselves.

I've put many thousands of dollars into my pile. Most of my friends fight like hell to keep roads around CO open. And so far, we've been sucessful. We have an organized, active, and finacially sound system of 4wd clubs that help to keep trails open for trucks, atv's, dirt bikes, etc...

But it is still a HUGE battle, becasue for every responsible wheeler, we have 5 douchebag dumbsbh!ts that screw it up for the rest of us by driving all over, tearing up the landscape, and otherwise wrecking the hard work that we go through to keep our trails open. It enrages me.

Anyway, this post isnt meant as a personal attack, or an attack at all. Its more of a rant. Sorry if it comes across as completely directed at you, its not. I just don't understand your view point, and it is upsetting. But i respect your right to hold that view, and hope that things go well for you. Sorry that this thread has upset you as much as it has.
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Old 08-23-2007, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tc View Post
That is where you're SORELY mistaken.
Around here we just fall trees on the tree-huggers when they get in the way.

Sorry, don't know what's common practice where you live. AND NO, there aren't a vast number of them with the nerve to "start" somethin'. So we have little trouble from them.

Working solution, or NOT?

They are the JOKERS. If my attitude isn't the consensus where I'm from, let me suffer any and all repercussions. Certainly TREAD LIGHTLY could only fuel the flames by playing their game with them. Instead of COMPLETELY disregarding them as we do.

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Old 08-23-2007, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by MudHippy View Post
Pretty well ashamed of all you guys at this point anyway.
i guess i am not clear on what is so shameful about being responsible with our trails. i'm not sure what you are hearing in this forum muddhippy, but i'm not sure it is the same thing that other people are communicating. i was born and raised in washington, along with a fair amount of other people on yotatech, and grew up wheeling in and round washington, oregon and idaho with guys from all over the northwest. in all that, i'm not sure how you could live here and not be aware of what is going on. there are plenty of people here trying to shut trails down, and there are plenty of people fighting under the guise of tread lightly and other groups to keep things open (albeit, those trying to shut us down have the political power of the western half of the state). if you are ashamed of trying to keep places open to wheel, then, by all means, be ashamed.

i'm not sure anyone is saying that pictures of wheeling are wrong, in fact, the exact opposite. we all want to post our wheeling adventures and we all want to see each others exploits. the deal is we can not afford to have those adventures turned against us if/when they are illegal (ie labeling posts is crucial). none of us are ashamed to wheel or to show it off, but we are ashamed to see our fellow wheelers showing off their illegal activities.

an additional point must be made here however, and i believe it may be at the heart of your post. it does not matter how much explanation a picture has, if it looks bad, it can be construed as being bad. a perfectly legal wheeling adventure, captured on film and taken out of context can be just as condemning as an illegal one. however, despite what other people may choose to do with it, we have done our part to be legal and forthright. the onus at this point is not on us to be moral people, the onus is on others.


back on track...when will the general yotatech population be made aware of these policies? sounds like the staff has their game plan in hand.

my granddad used to have a saying...when you are working on something in the shop and you are at the point where you've been stuck for awhile and there are several options on the table and you don't know which on to pick..."sometimes you've got to do something even if it s wrong...standing here won't get this done." you can always go back and change policy, but it sounds like it is time to move forward.



thank you staff/moderators for putting this thread up and hearing us out...all of us...even those who didnt agree with you.
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Old 08-23-2007, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Corey View Post
Yes, I have a hidden agenda.
You will hand over your title to your rig to me at once.
Thats not exactly what I mean... Should I UPS the title, or FEDEX it to you? jk. Anyway, does anyone have any SOLUTIONS???
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Old 08-24-2007, 06:47 AM
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A couple of clarifications:

The staff DOES have an agenda, but it's not hidden. It's been expressed in this thread several times. It is: "photos of illegal activity will not be permitted on this forum and will be removed". We've been pretty clear. It's the how that we are trying to decide.

There's some good feedback in this thread and it's being discussed by the staff, but we have not made up our minds, so additional discussion is welcomed. There's a lot of pros and cons to consider and we want to "tread lightly" in our actions. (pun intended)

Paranoids and conspiracy theorists, please take note... Please keep in mind that I have a personal opinion on this matter and it might (does) come through in my posts. That does not mean it's the only one and even I don't claim it's the perfect solution for the whole forum. So, keep in mind that if the staff had our minds made up and were going to patently ignore feeback from the members, we wouldn't ask for it in the first place. That ploy would become pretty obvious when we rolled out a policy that was way out of line from what was discussed here. We honestly do want the feedback and really are considering it in trying to make the right decision for the forum and membership.

We want to do the right thing here, first by the sport/land and second by the forum/membership. That decision will integrate feedback from this thread, but it might take a bit of discussion to decide on the course of action. Even then, it's not set in stone and as someone pointed out, we can "fine tune". Please continue to toss in your thoughts as you have them. We do value them. Even from those of you who are wrong... Just keep it civil.
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Old 08-24-2007, 07:13 AM
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This may have little to do with this thread, other than to illustrate my opinion as a climber, mountain biker and four wheeling enthusiast on why it is important to do what we can to preserve trail access, but here goes...

"First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up,
because I wasn’t a Jew.

Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up,
because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me." - Martin Niemoller



If we do nothing, then we will find ourselves with nothing.

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Old 08-24-2007, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by WATRD View Post
I think the idea has some merit, but let me play devil's advocate...

First, how do we enforce that? Delete posts that don't have info?
...
Yes, exactly.

Originally Posted by WATRD View Post
Second, suppose I go to the Rubicon trail (legal), but then post pictures of me in the closed zone near spider lake (illegal)? My point is that if people are wheeling illegally, telling a lie on a message board and bending the truth or outright lying about where the pics came from isn't going to be a stretch for them. We could still end with pictures of people doing illegal things in illegal places, but it would get left up because they said it was in their own yard
You can't stop people from lying, but you can stop them from putting up pictures that would raise question about YotaTech. I think TacoClimber nailed it when he said there is a personal and a corporate issue here.

Corporate: YotaTech only supports legal wheeling and the forums must represent that fact.
Personal: YotaTech wants to educate people about Tread Lightly! and its message and encourage the users of the site to wheel responsibly to ensure we all have a place to wheel.

If you provide some details about your trip that support the legality, and it is a known legal trail, who is going to debunk it? I doubt the 'greenies' will be hopping in their 4x4 trucks to drive up and down trails to compare the pictures to the scenery. If they did they might end up liking it.

You can put hard controls in place about #1. Posts with off-road shots must provide trail details or its removed, no ifs, ands or buts. (That's plural 'if' not people with IFS)

We can only encourage people to actually Tread Lightly! through our actions - not by force. But you can create rules that are easy to administer that protect YotaTech.

This isn't an imposition on freedom of speech, this is society evolving and no longer accepting behavior that reflects negatively on us all, and I'm all for it! If anything this thread shows how free we are to speak in this forum. If we weren't free to speak, they would have just come up with rules and implemented them without discussing the idea with the user base.
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