EIL_V8

Hi guys, I have a bit of a problem.

UZZ31 Toyota Soarer from 1991.

Just had timing belt + water pump installed by Australian mobile mechanic company "Lube Mobile".

Worst job ever! DO NOT TRUST THESE CLOWNS WITH YOUR VEHICLE!
Mechanic put water pump gasket on wrong, couldn't work out timing, had to call 3 other guys to help him, then broke a distributor, shorted my starter motor and smoked my battery - now car will not crank.

• Mechanic had started the car 3 times with timing out of sync and left the fan bracket resting on crank whilst starting it, leading to horrible scraping noises which did not seem to bother him. I had to yell at him to stop.
• After I installed new ignition parts and started the vehicle a week later, I found water seeping from thermostat housing, water pump, and between engine and transmission.
• The water pump gasket failure had flooded the intake valley (in between the V of the 2 heads where the starter motor lives), and the coolant had shorted the starter motor - and started seeping out the rear of the valley through the transmission and engine drain hole (at flywheel).
• The negative battery terminal was also producing smoke for the 10 seconds it was trying to crank when the starter motor was shorted out which may have screwed my battery and be the cause to this non crank issue; The battery reads 12.5v though...
• Mechanic came back a week later and replaced starter motor with some kind of crap generic unit with the name of "OEX".
• I am not happy about this. My factory Denso motor was whisked away and I was left with garbage.
• I do not know what further damage has been done, all I know is the car will not crank now.

Anyway.
Here is the issue I need help with.

Car eventually got started after a new starter motor was installed and we went for a 5 minute test drive to local shop and back.

Upon returning home, turning car off, and turning it back on, it will not crank.
The dash lights short out when key is trying to crank, but come back on when key is released.
"Lube Mobile" refuse to send another mechanic and are refunding me for the initial job.

I have no alarm or immobilizer.
I've had battery on and off many times with zero issue in the 10 years of ownership.
The battery terminals appear tight like a toiga. I am getting 12.5v.

Can anyone lend me any advice? I do not wish to call another mobile mechanic.

Thanks all, appreciate it.

Edit: Posted in wrong area, sorry!

2ToyGuy

The battery reads 12.5 VDC when under no load. What does it read when the key is turn to START? You can take it to nearly any auto parts store, and get it load tested. Most will do it for free these days. I'll wager when they shorted the starter, they shorted a cell or two in the battery. A load test will tell the truth about your battery.

Good luck!
Pat☺

EIL_V8

Hi Pat, thanks.

I am leaning on a bad battery also...

What I wonder is, the car did start after the starter was installed with same battery.

When we started car, it was 12.4v when off, then upon arriving home 5 mins later it was 12.5v when off, so did charge slightly.

After turning car off, it will no longer crank when key's turned, and dash shorts out...

Do you think it is a bad battery/shorted cell if it reads 12.5v when car is off? From what I've been reading, if a battery has a shorted cell it will register as 10v, not 12 for example...

millball

No load battery voltage is a worthless indicator. It will give absolutely no indication of a batteries ability to deliver current.

What does the voltmeter read when the key is turned to crank, and the lights go off???

I'll wager the reading is near nothing.

Have you made any effort to charge the battery with a battery charger??

Co_94_PU

iTrader: (-1)

Checking the voltage between posts isn't a bad idea. You should.also check the voltage drop across the FL and body grounds.

EIL_V8

Hi, thanks for replies!

I have no battery charger til the weekend and cannot get another person to help me check volts when trying to crank til then either.
Wires are not long enough, and cannot really head down to the local car store to get longer ones whilst the car isn't working - having to rely on lifts.
I'm stuck for now. Luckily the weekend is only days away.

Was hoping to find a loose cable or Earth or something from battery, but all seems good by eye...
Where do the positive and negative cables from the battery attach to the car? From battery, where do they run to?

I know I sound like a fool right now, I'm flying blind without jacks and tools!
Will keep thread updated when new info arrives. Will return to tell the result of auto elec too!

I hope it's a fried battery...

2ToyGuy

The negative battery terminal goes two places: The body ground, and another runs down to the AC compressor mount, providing the engine ground. There are 4 primary grounds. The battery to the body, the battery to the engine, the head to the body, from the rear hoisting hook on the head to the firewall, and the alternator to PS pump bracket. Make sure they're all in good condition, clean, bare metal where they bolt down, wires in good shape. No cracks in the insulation, no broken strands.. The wire from the battery to the body and engine should be about a 1-0 or 2-0, pronounced "one-aught or two-aught", wires. All the others can be 12GA or 10GA.

The positive leads:: One directly down to the big terminal on the starter, again, 1-0 or 2-0 sized wire. The other is the fusible link that goes directly to the fuse box in the engine compartment. Right behind the battery on the fender well. Bolts onto the bottom of the 80 amp fuse.

It's a good idea to use what's called "Marine terminals" on the battery. A terminal that goes on the battery post like a normal terminal, but with a bolt sticking up from it, with a wing nut for holding wires on, rather than a clamp to attach the wires to the battery terminal directly. You can easily clamp a ring terminal on the end of the wires that go onto the battery, that will slip down onto the vertical bolt. It helps reduce corrosion a LOT, and any is easy to see and correct. They also make changing out the battery more easy. Just unscrew the wing nut, pull the wires up and off, and voila, the battery will come right out.

Another hint: Replacing the battery with the Optima, or "gel-cell", type, is a very good idea. They never get corrosion on the terminals from battery acid, unlike a "normal" battery. They can't leak acid. The cells are sealed, and no liquid. They can be mounted up-side-down, sideways, right-side-up, etc.They also work better in cold weather. More cold cranking amps.

Hope this is a small help...
Pat☺

EIL_V8

HI again!

Tested battery when key should be cranking engine and it reaches 12v.
When car is not cranking it is 12.4v.

Does this suggest a bad battery?

- We tried jumping car the other day with the current battery in the car, attached to a jump pack, and also another battery after that.
- Car will not crank.
- Relays click in engine bay when key turned to "on".
- Dash lights turn off and car won't crank when key turned all the way to "ignition".

Thanks for the replies, appreciate it!

Co_94_PU

iTrader: (-1)

This is completely reasonable to assume it's the same bad starter system design as the known bad 4runner and pickup.. A design choice that routes the starter solenoid current through the Ignition switch instead of a relay.

There is a good write up by Rad4runner, I'm to lazy to link.. In short observe safety, unplug starter solenoid wire and replace with a spade bit on a wire long enough to reach battery, touch wire to battery + while key in start position, assume the engines going to turn and run don't be in the way of spinning bits or in front of it. Then proceed to wire it correctly..

This cost cutting step saved Toyota millions but the engineer that did it deserves a kick in the shin (if not higher..)

EIL_V8

The UZZ31 Toyota Soarer has a starter relay in the engine bay fuse box. It appears to click when key is turned, but when trying to crank the dash shorts out and nothing happens til key is released, then dash comes back on ...

Co_94_PU

iTrader: (-1)

Just because it has a relay doesn't mean it's wired in a sane way.

Read and follow the directions HERE as best you can, if you have questions ask..

EIL_V8

I had an auto elec here today who tested relay in fuse box and found no power at starter.

He claims a wire is off at starter, or starter is likely faulty.

Did not take intake manifold off. "I'm not a mechanic, I'm an auto elec. You have to get it towed to a garage, noone will do this job here in the drive way".

So... Would he be correct then? Would that be the first place to look on this vehicle? No other smoke and mirrors hiding any starting thingos?

The issue he seemed to have is why the negative battery terminal smoked when the old starter stopped working... He said coolant would just cause open circuit, not make negative terminal smoke.

So right now I'm still screwed and without a car, looks like the intake has to come off again and a new starter purchased or wire put back on in best case... Unless there's another test/trick?

2ToyGuy

Well, first would be to see what wire is off the starter. Is it the small wire (10 or 12 GA) from the ignition switch down to the starter solenoid, or is it the bigger, heavy wire (1-0 or 2-0), that runs directly from the battery + terminal down to the actual starter motor. There's only those two. The small wire has a female spade terminal on it where it mates the starter, the big, power wire has a ring terminal, and goes on a bolt sticking out of the starter. Should have a rubber boot on it. A quick look in through the wheel well is the easiest way to see the two wires, but you can look down from the top to see it as well. You can easily trace the heavy, power wire from the positive battery terminal straight down to the starter.

As mentioned above, you can easily make up a solenoid test wire. Just take 3 or 4 feet of 10GA wire, put a female spade terminal on one end, and just strip the other. Make sure, absolutely certain, the truck is neutral on the transmission AND the transfer case, and make certain there's no one and nothing in front of, or behind, the truck. Pull the positive battery terminal off, but ensure the negative terminal is connected properly. Plug the female spade terminal into the starter solenoid. It's pretty obvious where it goes There's only one place it can connect. Once everyone, including the tester, is out from in front of, or behind, the truck, touch the other end of your test lead to the battery + terminal. You should hear a loud "click" from the starter solenoid. Do NOT leave the wire on the battery for more than a second or two. You're just seeing if it makes the click when the wire touches the battery + terminal.
If you do, the solenoid is probably OK. If you want to be certain of everything, put the battery + cables on the terminal, turn the key to ON, or run, and repeat your test. If the starter turns, ie cranks the engine over, the starter, and solenoid, are both good. Remember, do not touch the test wire to the terminal for more than 1 or 2 seconds!

If the starter, and solenoid are both good, your problem is in the wire from the ignition switch (the "key") to the starter solenoid, the ignition switch, or the wire from the fuse box to the ignition switch. The circuit is long, but not complex. Two 10 or 12 GA wires, and a switch. Oh, and a spade terminal on the end of the wire where it connects to the solenoid. It's quite easy for the female spade terminal on the wire to break where it's crimped to the wire. It can LOOK good, but not allow enough current flow to energize the solenoid. Corrosion can also build up on the metal of the terminal, either on the wire end, or the starter end, with same effect. That can be a dirty, oily, place, and it can get into the female spade terminal, and lower the current it will allow sufficiently to not allow the solenoid to energize. The switch can also develop a build up of corrosion, again preventing enough current flow to energize the solenoid.
It's a poorly designed system. The key switch SHOULD control a RELAY that then applies +12VDC from the battery directly to the solenoid when the key is turned to start. There is a modification in the sticky area, that will install such a relay. It's an easy, relatively cheap mod to make. IIRC, about $25.00, and maybe an hour's work. Maybe an hour, if that.

Sorry, I'm long winded. Hope this helps a little, though...
Pat☺

EIL_V8

Hi there, thanks for the helpful reply!

I have no idea what the issue is til a mechanic takes the intake off, but in the meantime will check some youtube vids to see the process.
Might just go get some tools and do it myself in the end.

What I am wondering is the following...

Is there anything else what so ever that could cause the fuse box starter motor terminal thing to not activate the starter when jumped? The way I understand, Is that it's a direct wire from the starter relay in fuse box to the starter motor itself. When terminals are jumped, it should make the starter move. But it doesn't.

Is there anything that can cut the starter relay out and prevent the jump from supplying power to starter?

When the thing is jumped, nothing happens you see. One side of relay terminal has power via test light.

I have a "30" or "31" ECU in the car, which replaced a "29" ECU, but have had no issues when taking battery off or similar ever before, so do not think it would be an immobilizer issue or so on. Do not have factory alarm or similar either. Do have non working factory remote locking with a button on the key.

2ToyGuy

All I can think would be if the fusible link from the battery to the fuse block is burnt open. Or even the terminals on the ends of FL. It IS possible for wires, including the FL, to break inside the insulation. It LOOKS perfectly fine, bit no current through it. A multimeter can be used to ohm it out in seconds. Just be certain to remove both battery terminals before ohming wires out. It doesn't take much to burn up a multimeter in "ohms" mode.

Also, the brushes, as well as the plunger, in the solenoid, can wear down to uselessness. Often, it's just ONE brush that's worn beyond operability. The solenoid can be removed and repaired without removing the whole starter assembly. There are kits out there for replacing the brushes. If it's the plunger, quite often it's just a build up of corrosion on it. You can polish it up nicely with some really fine grit sandpaper.

If the ring terminal that's on the heavy gauge wire, going directly from the battery and bolts directly to the starter, or the terminal on the starter it's self, are dirty or corroded, that can cause such difficulties. That's a dirty, oily, area.

Dirty battery terminals, or where the wire is clamped onto the terminal, can cause such problems, too. A lot of time, especially with the factory type battery terminals, battery acid can get down into the wire, inside the insulation, and corrode through the wires. That's why I strongly recommend switching over to marine terminals, with ring terminals on the wires that go onto them. When you clamp the ring terminals onto the wires, it's a simple step to apply some heatshrink to them at the same time. Use what's called meltwall, or FIT-300, heatshrink. It has a inner liner inside, that melts and flows when the heatshrink is heated up to shrink it. Fills in all the little nooks and crannies, and keeps battery acid out of the insulation.

Instead of jumping the terminals on the starter relay in the fuse box, it's a much better idea to make the jumper to run direct from the battery to the starter solenoid. It eliminates, or indicates, all the wiring, any corrosion, and relay(s) between the battery and starter. Quick, simple, easy to make, as I indicated above. If the starter turns when it's applied, it's not the starter. It's something before it. If the starter does not turn when the test jumper is used, either the solenoid or the starter is bad.
Alternatively, most auto parts chain stores will test your starter for you, if you pull it off and bring it in to them.

It sounds to me, and I'm not there to look for myself, obviously, like when the battery smoke checked, the fusible link going battery to fuse box may have burnt open, as it's designed to do. Easy to check with a multimeter. Alternatively, the smaller wire feeding the starter solenoid from the starter relay, essentially the "control" wire, may have burnt open.
Again, making the test jumper I mentioned will tell the tale. It will tell you if it's the starter, the solenoid, or the wiring/relays before the starter.

As far as I know, you shouldn't need to pull the intake manifold off to check the starter with the test jumper.

Does all my rambling help any?
Pat☺

Co_94_PU

iTrader: (-1)

The soarer is what we got as a sc400.. It's starter is buried under the intake between the cylinder heads..

Sound like a great idea!

OK so the closest your getting to that starter is the junction block (fuse box under the hood).

You said this relay is clicking if I recall, this is good news because it means the anti theft ECU hasn't disabled it. However it doesn't mean the relay is functioning properly.

Take the relay out. Set your multimeter to 20v DC. With your negative test lead on battery negative, check the connector. One of these is always "hot" and connected to the battery. One of these is hot when the key is in start position. Another connects to the anti theft ECU and provided ground for the START signal. The last one connects to the starter solenoid.

Once you've identified the constant and switched hot you've got a 50% chance of hot wiring the starter.. If I'm looking at this correctly it's likely the one directly across, that's typically how relays are played out..

Connect pin 4(?) and pin 2(?) and the starter should crank the engine over. If it does your starter is good and connected and your battery is good also and it's maybe the relay. If it doesn't there are a few things to try.

First bypass the fusible link by running a wire from battery positive to the "not hot" terminal you connected to earlier. If it cranks now your problem is the fusible link wire burnt out when the start was stuck on... This one's highly likely since the active duty cycle of the starter system is about 10% (one minute on, nine minutes off). A related issue is the melted(?) Ground wire, again this is low duty cycle about 30s/5m or 1m/10. Either one of these wires when over heated and damaged are going to cause enough voltage drop to prevent the engine from running and basically shutting down everything they are connected to.

If it doesn't crank you could have a bad ground. Connect your jumper cable between the negative battery post and some metal bit of the engine near the starter or where ever the big negative battery lead goes and try again. If it works this time you've found a bad ground.

..
If none of that works you're probably pulling the intake to fix a bad solenoid wire but on the upside you know how to test its working before you bolt the intake back on.

EIL_V8

Hey thanks for the replies guys, I'll be checking a few things later this afternoon or tomorrow when rain stops.

Recapping: Have a 1991 Toyota Soarer UZZ31 from Japan, the USA car is a little different and has alarms and all that, but not mine apparently - so immobilizer can be ruled out as far as I know.
That said, car is running an SC400 ECU apparently after a recap of the UZZ31 ECU allegedly went wrong and I never saw it again.
Had battery off many times though, never an issue - so the problem must be starter, or wire to, or bad Earth, etc.

Starter motor does not make noise when terminals are jumped in fuse box - have not tried wire from battery idea yet.

EIL_V8

Hello again.

I had a look at wiring and all seems good outside of intake valley.

Question:

When jumping starter relay terminals in fuse box, does this bypass all other systems such as neutral start switch and ignition?
For example, the USA cars have immobilizers.
If immobilizer is active for whatever reason, will jumping the relay terminal in fuse box for starter motor cause the starter to try start car, or can something stop the jump from working?

When I try jump the starter terminal in fuse box, there is no noise at starter motor. Relays click (2 or 3 times I think) when key is turned to "on", but nothing happens when trying to crank and dash shorts out til key is released.

Auto elec claims open wire underneath manifold, or wire to starter is off, or starter is faulty... But he only checked the starter relay terminal thing in fuse box, no ignition or shift test, etc.

Thanks guys!

EIL_V8

I've ordered a new intake gasket set which will be here by the 5th of Jan, and organized a mechanic to come visit.

Will update thread accordingly. Don't expect much news for around two weeks.

Thanks for ya help!

EIL_V8

Just a quick question if anyone can help, cannot seem to find it online...

What is the correct part number for the top idler pulley on a 1uzfe engine (for uzz31 toyota soarer 1991).

Pulley is grooved.


Thanks!