L33T35T 4Runner

I was looking at some offroading pictures and somebody said they had to climb a rock on their second gen backwards because he didnt think the IFS could handle it

first off, what is IFS?

what's bad about it?

what's good about it?

why cant it climb rocks and big things?

thanks for the info...

joez

1.)independent front suspension

2.)no articulation, weak links, like cv joints, and more moving parts.

3.)?

4.)no articulation in comparrison to a solid front axle, also weaker.

hope this helps a little

rimpainter.com

1. Independent Front Suspension

2. Lift limits (really expensive vs straight axle, going BIG anyway)

3. Handles bumps better, vehicle doesnt "wander" as much, better for a stock vehicle

4. It cant? I would say lift (lack thereof)

L33T35T 4Runner

ok

thanks for the info

Toyota Punk

A really good example of the difference in offroad prowess of IFS versus solid axle is the set of videos Steve Schaefer made of his runner going up a hill and a Taco w/SAS. I used to have them on my computer, but no longer do. I wonder if anyone still knows of the links for these or has them... or even knows what I'm talking about for that matter. Anyway I think that would be an excellent visual aid for L33t3st.

Corey

iTrader: (1)

I have seen the same vids.
IFS is great for fireroads and trails where you don't get to catywampus.

The solid axles can walk over rocks easier because the cab can stay level while the axle gets articulated.

One of the best SAS jobs I have seen where the rig stayed level playing in the rocks is Leonel's '89 truck.
His pics with Image Station are not working now.

Firefyter-Emt

Ok.. a little myth dispelling here..

The IFS shafts are in fact quite strong, and stronger than a birfield..
Yes, the wheel travel stinks..
If you brace the rear of the control arm with a IFS brace.. It is really quite a sturdy suspension which does work very well.. I have wheeled mine pretty hard and other than wheel travel I have never had a lot of trouble with it..

Unless you are going for bicg rocks, or tires over 33".. Run the IFS.. You are going to spend $2500-$3000 for a SAS.. a 1" body lift and some tweeking will let you Run 33" tires.. ( a very good all around tire size with re-gearing for these trucks)

Flygtenstein

If I am thinking of the same video that Steve has, what was wrong with the IFS rigs vs. the Solid axles? They all made it up the hill in the end.

There are some good pics showing an IFS CV vs. a solid axle Birfield on ODW. Pretty gosh darn close when you look at them.

If you want to go big, over 35's, then you need a solid axle because it is easier to lift.

It is amazing what dual lockers and the right gears will do with 33's. Things get even better with a crawler.

Are you nuking CV's left and right or constantly in need of realignment after wheeling? Ever blown an IFS ring and pinion?

In my humble opinion, the strongest justification for a solid axle is ease of lift and consequent articulation. A front locker can make for lack of flex to some degree.

Steve and Jeff do some pretty challenging trails with their runners and still drive the thing every day. Yeah, IFS blows!

joez

i was speaking general. yes, birfields blow(no pun intended), but throw on a set of longfields and you can handle 36"+ tires with real hard off-highway travel. i really dont think that the ifs system on a toyota could handle that with a front locker. for regular weekend warrior duty, a front and rear locked ifs toyota with little to no mods will go almost everwhere a comparribly equipped sfa rig, it will just require different lines and more careful driving. but the shafts being stronger than birfields? i dont know about that. i have wheeled my 83 hard, and have yet to have any problem with my front end, and thats with the 32's on it. does ifs work? depends mostly on the driver. get a person who knows what they are doing and they will go just about anywhere, whether it be in a subaru or Tiny. i am in no way knocking ifs, it is a reliable suspension, and at times i wish i had it, i get sick of feeling every bump on the road shoot through my spine. but thats the price you pay.

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

1. Inferior Front Suspension

2. There is everything bad about it. It is useless offroad, reason being that the control arms can only travel from the mount point, to the end of the arm. The arm has less travel radius (up/down) than a solid axle does. Solid axles have the travel spread from spring to srpinf, and opposed to mounting point to ball joint. Almost every comoant makes a drop bracket lift. All this does is add a spacer to the spindle, and drop the diff. It gives you NO additional ground clearance, or suspension travel. Only a few companies such as Downey have been able to make true lifts with long travel links.

3. it does ride much softer. But, install the right seats and bushings in a solid truck, and you can hardly tell the difference.

4. It can climb some big things, though not many. Once your truck reaches the bump stops and thre rear is fully articulated, the truck lifts off the ground, thus increasing the rollover possiblity. The more travel you can get the better, as it allows the wheels to stay in contact with the ground. Just my $.02

Corey

iTrader: (1)

Here are some very good vids of IFS rigs playing in the rocks.
It can be done setup right.

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...=&postid=65862

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...&threadid=8125

It's best to right click those vid links and save them to your PC.
If you don't have Win Media Player 9, you will need to DL the codex and update your player if you run Win 98 like I do.

Use the link on the far left of the page if you need it.
http://www.divx.com/divx/

Plays_with_Toys

Have you guys heard of Total Chaos? They have 12-13in travel kits for IFS toys 4WD's, not prerunners. And watching the AZrocks video that was on another post here, it seems like IFS toys can handle the rough stuff.

The website for Total Chaos is www.chaosfab.com

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

They are fairly capable to a certain point, but you'll pay a premium for half the travel at twice the cost. Total Chaos is a great company, as is Downey.

Brown

I've been keeping an eye on TC, and they look like they have some great stuff. I would love to do that to my truck-- especially if I lived in the desert. That pic above isn't 4 wheel drive though, but here's another one with 4 wheel drive from their website:


Both pictures are the "Caddy" kit, but the 2 wheel drive one gets another inch of travel I believe. The 4 wheel drive kit requires different CVs, such as T100 CVs. A lot more info on that website, and plenty of cool pics, too!

Sporin

http://www.widowmakeronline.homestead.com/liveaxle.html

Solid Axle vs. IFS Offroad

http://www.off-road.com/toyota/tech/solidaxle

Toyota, solid axle:



Same Toyota, same place, before the swap, IFS:



I disagree with some above that "IFS is useless offroad." But if you want to go really big and start doing some serious rock crawling, a solid axle will be stronger, cheaper, and better overall.

I bet 90% of weekend light wheelers would be just fine with IFS, good tires, and proper skidplates.

Just my 2¢

Darren

I think that the IFS illustration is off the wall if its trying to make a point that there's less clearance on the arms or the diff and that it would hit before a straight axle would. The pumpkin on a live/straight/solid axle hangs down lower. But those aren't the main issues when comparing the 2. As we all know, they forgot to include the body and the rear axle of the vehicle in the diagram to show the real comparison.

Just rambling though.

Flygtenstein

Darren, you are exactly right. Given identical tire size, an IFS right could have more clearance driving over the same rock.

Congratulations on posting Geiger's pic. Both times the runner will get over that rock.

Get a couple of lockers, adequate protection and the correct gears, then come back and talk about how much IFS blows.

Take a rig, get it on 33's. Wheel the gosh darn out of it. You will have tons of fun in something that you can drive everyday. I know lockers don't look cool, but what they do is pretty impressive.

Brown

BTW, I shaved my bumpstops that limit droop the other night, and got a whopping 1/4" more of droop travel out of it!!!


I've already stored the sway bar in the closet for good.

I agree that you can do a lot of stuff to an IFS truck and have an awesome weekend warrior and still drive to work on Monday. I get sick of the IFS vs. straight axle stuff sometimes, because to me, an SAS is just a future mod for a lot of people the more hardcore they get into this sport. It's like adding lockers, sliders, etc. It's just a progression, and some people don't feel the need to be able to climb cliffs in their vehicles, like others-- so they don't need a solid axle up front.

Personally, there's a lot of things I want to do to my truck before I even consider a solid axle up front. There's plenty of things I just want to try to make better on my vehicle instead of complaining about it-- like that Total Chaos kit..... mmmmmmmm.

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

My main point is the cost. To add all these things to an IFS truck is big bucks. Likewise it is relatively cheap to lift solid axle trucks, plus take this example: For the same amount of moneym, you get double the articulation, so why not go that route?

oly884

Ive got a 4" lift on my truck, along with 33's. I didn't bother paying someone to put the lift on so a friend and I did it. I saved about 4-5 hundred bucks. It only took 12 hours to do it also Anyways, my friends have 85's and mine is a 90. I've seen first hand the differences. I can say that there is a difference, but unless you plan on going places that require a significant amount of wheel travel then a sas isn't as useful as it may seem. If you get a locker in the rear with ifs in the front, then you'll be fine if you're going to do some trail riding. Of all the times I've been out, I've never been stopped by the ifs, but not having a locker did stop me. This was with my friends with 85's also. Unless you plan on getting into hardcore rock crawling or stuff like that, don't get rid of the ifs.