Wyo4Runner

1987 22RE 5sp.

Somewhere on this forum, I followed a reference to 4crawler.com/CheapTricks for checking TPS. My terminals, best I can tell, from top to bottom:

Vcc
VTA
IDL
E2

Supposedly, VTA - E2 closed should be 200-800 ohms and wide open throttle should be 3.3K - 10K.

My low is 1500, my high is 9500.

Anyone know if that's okay?

Here's the rest of the story, followed by a glamour shot of my engine. (It's just gold lipstick on a 296K motor. Temporary, just for fun.)

Over a year ago, driving along, sudden loss of power, muted throttle response, very rough idle. Like the timing is way off. Drove home, couldn't do more than about 40mph.

Parked her. Pulled her into the shop this November. Since then:
New plugs, wires, cap, rotor, oil, oil filter, air filter, pcv & grommet, egr delete. Simplified vacuum lines per this forum.
Chain looks fine to me but maybe I don't know what to look for. Seems tight.
Pulled intake plenum and throttle body. Thorough cleaning.
Injectors test normal ohms.
Cannot find any vacuum or air leaks.
Timing light looks fine.

NOTE: Added Rislone 1/2 hour before sudden power loss and rough idle. Wondering if I broke loose some gunk and it's trapped somewhere.

I feel like I'm missing something simple and obvious.

I've yet to check code because I just learned the paper clip method and didn't have a code reader before. Will have to check codes once I decide to keep the TPS or not.

Thanks!

kornhuskerwizard

Ive had a hard time w tps adjustments. I also go off of 4crawler. Look on my build thread for what i came up with on my specs for help.

Wyo4Runner

Wow! Looked over your build, read lots of it. Nicely done!

What a PITA with the TPS.

Thanks, you've given me some ideas.

Probably means I'll try a few things, scratch my head, try a few more, then be back with more questions.

Cadin

Can you isolate it to one cylinder? You don't mention cleaning the injectors or replacing the fuel filter. What is your fuel pressure?

Wyo4Runner

I may be able to, not sure yet. I didn't clean my fuel injectors or replace fuel filter. I don't think it's the fuel filter (but I"m not sure.) Haven't checked fuel pressure- never done that, not sure I have the tool. I'm learning a lot as I go. This is the deepest I've gone with diagnosing my 4Runner, I've always paid a mechanic. My skills start to fade after 1974 dual carb VW I built and tuned years ago. Fuel injection and emissions are Latin to me but I am learning through this experience. I"m planning to put the TPS back where it was and start from square one by reading the codes, then checking the timing belt thoroughly. I have to look for a good write up on timing belt diagnosis. It looked tight to me but someone told me that at high speed it could have jumped a tooth. I was playing with the distributor and got better (still poor) idle by advancing the timing all the way. Anyway, I'm open to suggestions. I'm far from expert when trying to diagnose.

Thanks!

Cadin

Well, the best thing you can do is download one of the many free Factory Service Manuals (FSM's) that people have links to on here. Timing lights are ~$25 at the Harborage of Freight or similar. Fuel pressure gauges should be of higher quality.

The electronics in these rigs are pretty robust, so I would focus on all the basics first. If you need to troubleshoot the electronics, the FSM is worth is weight in gold; being concise, detailed and easy to follow.

You can be as capable as any expert if you just follow the FSM directions, and with more data about the issue folks on here will be able to provide ample input!

(Don't worry EFI isn't really that scary, the principles are all the same; it's just that the dominoes are a different shape.)

Wyo4Runner

Thanks for the encouragement. I do have/use a timing light but not pressure gauge. Sounds like I should get one, especially with EFI on 4 of my rigs. The past few weeks looking over the EFI has taught me a lot. I'll take your advice and hunt down the FSMs. One of the most useful tools is the good advice I'm getting so THANKS!

Wyo4Runner

One small step:

Code 11 discovered.

I will mess with the TPS again, I think.

mldave

This chart shows code 11 as Signal switch and also ECU/ECM as in my post Signal Switch which has no replies so far.http://www.troublecodes.net/toyota/.

Cadin

In my experience, Toyota electrics are rarely partially faulty (it is usually all or nothing), and I wouldn't adjust or tinker without the FSM, as the FSM is very methodical and you will assuredly find the source of your strife.

Here is another Code 11 thread that sounds similar, I'm curious of what he found?

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116.../#post52151176

I mention it in the thread, but I chased a code 11 for around 3 years with a project, and it ended up being a fuel pump.

Make sure you have adequate fuel pressure first, and that the check valve keeps pressure; because the ECU will throw all kinds of codes and you can spend a lot of time and frustration troubleshooting downstream systems.

Cadin

You also mention adding Rislone 1/2hr before, and seemed to think it maybe broke gunk free, I would certainly check/swap the fuel filter; swapping them is a normal maintenance item. (I mounted mine to the fender)



Also the Rislone is likely just a witches brew

http://rislone.ca/system/pdfs/81/ori...pdf?1377284143

None of these ingredients are really impressive and is based primarily of powerful solvents.

A lot of what you find on the shelf of the stores is either repackaged kerosene or aggressive solvents. The profit ratio is huge, so it is certainly appealing to manufacturers.

Lately folks have been investigating fuel additives more and more, and it seems that the ingredient that really restores performance/removes deposits without being too aggressive or ineffective are Poly-Ethyl Amines (PEA's).

Check out the warning label on the bottle, if it says: "WARNING: Contains petroleum distillates" as well as "WARNING: Contains Amines" you should be golden, if you need an actual percentage the MSDS's are there. (I think gumout makes a product with a high percentage, as does techron and a redline product; IIRC)

If your timing is good, I wouldn't be surprised if your injectors or filter.

What does the dipstick smell like? If it smelly gassy, it could be excessive fuel impingement due to improperly spraying injectors.

What do your plugs look like after you idle for a bit? What do they smell like?

Gamefreakgc

Here, this will help: http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-buchanan/93fsm/

It's close enough to an 87, main differences will be stuff about the interior and body, not the engine.

I don't know where you got your readings from, but the range for VTA-E2 is 0.47k - 8.1k. That is just fine with a reading of 1.5k. The one that matters most is IDL-E2 outlined on page 201. If that doesn't match it needs adjustment: http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b...34throttle.pdf

Also, there is no code 11 on these rigs according to the FSM. That "Signal" response might be that you left your headlights or blinkers (or A/C) on when you pulled the code. *Edit* Your Neutral Start Swtich was on, or you pressed on the gas when you had E1-TE1 jumped.

Cadin

I don't think this is necessarily correct IIRC, it depends on whether it is single digit or dual digit OBD I.

Wyo, does it flash 11 times (single digit sys.), or does it: *flash -short pause- *flash -long pause- (Code 2, dual digit sys.)

Remember, if it flashes nothing but ones, e.g. flash, long pause, flash, long pause... That is a #1 and means that the ECU has no codes.


Does the problem change if you unplug the MAF (open loop mode)?

Cadin

If you cannot find the FSM, you can always sign up for the Toyota Info System.

FWIW, I paid ~$15 for 48 hours access and had every part of the manual and wiring supplement within a couple of hours.

(Saved as a .pdf, and use pdf merge to reassemble.)

RustBucket

iTrader: (1)

I pulled a handful of TPSs from older Camrys that should work in 22REs. If you need one PM me. They're not doing me any good right now.

4Crawler's TPS walkthrough is, in my opinion, more thorough than the FSM.

Wyo4Runner

Got the '88 FSM. Couldn't get the '87 download to work.

11 steady flashes, long pause, 11 again, etc. No starter switch, etc, just turned it to ON.

Rislone I used was oil additive, like we used to put in our big old v8's. Never again, though it may not have caused the problem. I thought it might have worked something loose in the pcv or egr.

Injector resistance numbers are good. Can they still be faulty?

I think I read your post about moving the fuell filter. So, that worked out okay? The engine heat isn't necessary for proper function?

Lots of ideas here. I better come up with some free time to follow up.

I really appreciate the help and the education!

Thank you!

I need to buy a fuel pressure gauge.

Cadin

Very True! (And his pictures and narrative are 100x better.)

I was more praising the FSM on being concise and thorough for the entire system, and having accurate pin-out diagrams for everything.

I especially like 4Crawler's idea to monitor the VTA and IDL inputs at the ECU. If you have long enough multimeter cables, you can even do it without the helper.

As far as the injector value's are concerned, that just tests the injector solenoid's coil, an injector could be clogged or be spraying improperly.

The Rislone as an oil additive is likely harmless, but remember these old 'Yota's are held together with their ancient grease, you don't want anything too aggressive in there! It seems odd that an oil additive would correlate with suddenly running poorly, I'd change your oil and consider it a cleaning.

Fuel filter doesn't need the engine heat, maybe in a diesel? I just mounted it on the passenger fender out of convenience. (I have also zip-tied it to the EFI intake, in a pinch.) Just make sure to use new crush washers (copper) and don't torque it too tight...

Wyo4Runner

Regarding the fuel filter: I'm glad to hear that's worked for you. I'll add that to my improvement list. After looking to change it once years ago as just another short routine maintenance item, like plugs or air filter, I took it to a mechanic instead. For some reason, I expected more from Toyota. Why bury a fuel filter so deeply? I guess they don't really care about what shade tree mechanics might want.

4Crawler's TPS walkthrough was the closest thing I've ever found to my favorite mechanic-ing book of all time: How to Keep Your VW Alive: The Compleat Idiot's Guide. (Muir) The complete opposite of a Chilton's manual.

Thanks, again. Hopefully, I'll have a progress report this weekend- though other adventures are calling!

Wyo4Runner

TPS reading: IDL - E2 measures infinity on all throttle openings.

So, instead of over-thinking or assuming that's wrong where all the other numbers are okay, I'm gonna assume that my TPS may be bad.

I'll replace and report back.

Wyo4Runner

Update:
Replacement TPS came tonight. I compared the old with the new and the difference was noticeable. The old didn't have a lot of spring tension. And, of course, the ohm readings were off. I replaced with the new (used), which tested fine, adjusted, but only the mildest improvement resulted.

My time is up. I need the shop space. I've had fun but am frustrated that I've run out of time to check a few more things. She's going to a professional now.

Will update when I know more...

Thanks to all who've taken the time to educate me. I have definitely learned a lot, despite not figuring out the problem yet.