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To torque or not to re torque a 22re

Old 12-11-2010, 07:57 AM
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hmmm the why in the heck does the FSM say to retorque them? half of use still use the OEM toyota gasket and not many of us are using the perma torque or a full on MLS gasket.

The rock gasket is one that most likely needs to get retorqued as well it's more of a hybrid mls/graphite.

Sorry a head gasket is one of the few things I would not want to take shortcuts on according to the fsm.

Hard to argue with a guy that has been building these motors a lot longer than any of us on this or any other message board.

Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 12-11-2010 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 12-11-2010, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by JamesD View Post
I ALWAYS use some kind of oil on the threads of the bolt and oil under the washer and head of the bolt to prevent binding when torquing down the bolt.
unless you are spec'ed to add oil to the threads adding oil will change the torque spec more then you might think, I know for a fact you should never ever never lubricate a wheel nut just in case anyone didn't know.

The torque value is dependent on the friction produced by the threads and by the fastened material's contact with both the fastener head and the associated nut. Moreover, this friction can be affected by the application of a lubricant or any plating (e.g. cadmium or zinc) applied to the threads, and the fastener's standard defines whether the torque value is for dry or lubricated threading, as lubrication can reduce the torque value by 15% to 25%; lubricating a fastener designed to be torqued dry could over-tighten it, which may damage threading or stretch the fastener beyond its elastic limit, thereby reducings its ability to clamp a joint.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolted_joint
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:46 AM
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As for the loosening prior to retorqueing depends of tool used. A beam style torque wrench vrs a click style. Yes I will need to loosen and readjust valve lash to be accurate.

The FSM and my biulder say to retorque, so guess what'll I'll do I will also retorque from time to time simply do to my motor mount setup which causes significantly more vibrations that stock, love my modded yota.

Anybody who uses physic theory to try and argue a point of what happens in the real world really needs to go retorque their head bolts. This is not a personal attack. Please review the physics of a bumble bee and a Chinkoo helicopter then please feel free to go argue your physic theory logic with either.

This place is full of guys that have an IQ higher than a toaster please feel free to post accredited information that supports your ideas.

We live in a free country if your builder says don't retorque you have the right to listen to him or not. If you read the FSM it is your free choose to follow the recommendations or not.
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Old 12-11-2010, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by muddpigg View Post
Anybody who uses physic theory to try and argue a point of what happens in the real world really needs to go retorque their head bolts. This is not a personal attack. Please review the physics of a bumble bee and a Chinkoo helicopter then please feel free to go argue your physic theory logic with either.

This place is full of guys that have an IQ higher than a toaster please feel free to post accredited information that supports your ideas.

We live in a free country if your builder says don't retorque you have the right to listen to him or not. If you read the FSM it is your free choose to follow the recommendations or not.
not sure if this was about my comment or not, im a truck technician apprentice, and im just trying to share a little info that might help some people work on there own rigs with a bit more knowledge and info, because common sence sometimes works against us, not often but sometimes.
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Old 12-11-2010, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ilostmypants View Post
not sure if this was about my comment or not, im a truck technician apprentice, and im just trying to share a little info that might help some people work on there own rigs with a bit more knowledge and info, because common sence sometimes works against us, not often but sometimes.
No found your post interesting, l can appreciate knowledge that is less brand specific as my mechanical knowledge is very limited to my Toyota hobby/addiction and really only focused to 2nd gen trucks/1st gen 4rnrs.

According to the instructions that came with my Craftsman beam style torque wrench "the only way to get an accurate torque read is while the bolt is in motion." I opted for the beam over the click just do to requirements of calibration. I don't know if the click style torque wrench requires the bolt to still be moving for an accurate read. So the only way for me to get an accurate torque value when I retorque is to back them off and retighten to spec.
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Old 12-11-2010, 04:17 PM
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Beam style torque wrenches are somewhat impractical but are highly accurate when compared to clickers. I dare anyone to proove me wrong, because as a nuclear mechanic in the navy on submarines we were only allowed to use beam style not clicker style because the margin for error on those things was not MIL-Spec. However, good clickers are accurate enough to use in everyday automotive applications.

Noone on here that I know of has had any extensive physics/chemistry/heat transfer and fluid flow training more than I have had. Unless they had a nuclear engineering degree. In which I have basically took the last two years of that degree in about a year and a half.

If I did not screw up paying back my college loans before the military I would already have at least an associates degree, if not a bachelors in Nuclear engineering. I'd also have a much better paying job right now in a nuclear power plant if I were not on Felony probation on something stupid.

I find it funny when someone brings up chemistry/physics to argue their point, because they have no idea of the schooling I have had through the military, in which has an 80% failure rate. Only 20% of the people who get in actually finish it.

Anyone who doubts me, I have proof upon request.

Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 12-11-2010 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 12-11-2010, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by xxxtreme22r View Post
Beam style torque wrenches are somewhat impractical but are highly accurate when compared to clickers. I dare anyone to proove me wrong, because as a nuclear mechanic in the navy on submarines we were only allowed to use beam style not clicker style because the margin for error on those things was not MIL-Spec. However, good clickers are accurate enough to use in everyday automotive applications.

Noone on here that I know of has had any extensive physics/chemistry/heat transfer and fluid flow training more than I have had. Unless they had a nuclear engineering degree. In which I have basically took the last two years of that degree in about a year and a half.

If I did not screw up paying back my college loans before the military I would already have at least an associates degree, if not a bachelors in Nuclear engineering. I'd also have a much better paying job right now in a nuclear power plant if I were not on Felony probation on something stupid.

I find it funny when someone brings up chemistry/physics to argue their point, because they have no idea of the schooling I have had through the military, in which has an 80% failure rate. Only 20% of the people who get in actually finish it.

Anyone who doubts me, I have proof upon request.
Think Joe Dirt (pronounced DirTe) said it best "Dang Robbie!" LOL
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Old 12-11-2010, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by snobdds View Post

Take an oil filter for example, I only put those on hand tight. Once the oil is ready for changing, that filter is on there tight enough that I need an oil filter wrench to get it off. There is only a rubber gasket on there? The reason it gets tighter is because of the heat cycles and the expansion and contraction pulling it towards the block, where the heat is. It's simple thermal dynamics.
Ask yourself what rubber does that graphite in a head gasket does not.

You guess it, rubber has an elasticity property that grahpite does not. When rubber is compressed it rebounds to almost it's original thickness. What's between the layers of most mls gaskets that do not require head bolt re-torque? You guessed it rubber. Nitrile synthetic rubber to be exact. A cometic MLS gasket is also covered in viton rubber.

Have a nice day.

Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 12-11-2010 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 12-12-2010, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by muddpigg View Post
As for the loosening prior to retorqueing depends of tool used. A beam style torque wrench vrs a click style. Yes I will need to loosen and readjust valve lash to be accurate.

The FSM and my biulder say to retorque, so guess what'll I'll do I will also retorque from time to time simply do to my motor mount setup which causes significantly more vibrations that stock, love my modded yota.

Anybody who uses physic theory to try and argue a point of what happens in the real world really needs to go retorque their head bolts. This is not a personal attack. Please review the physics of a bumble bee and a Chinkoo helicopter then please feel free to go argue your physic theory logic with either.

This place is full of guys that have an IQ higher than a toaster please feel free to post accredited information that supports your ideas.

We live in a free country if your builder says don't retorque you have the right to listen to him or not. If you read the FSM it is your free choose to follow the recommendations or not.
You keep forgetting WHEN the FSM was printed and the technology they had at the time. The 20R/22R has been around since the early 80's and the FSM has not changed but gasket technology has. Like I said before, it depends on the gasket you are using. Just because YOUR engine builder does it, does not make him 100% correct nor does it make him wrong either.

James
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Old 12-12-2010, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JamesD View Post
You keep forgetting WHEN the FSM was printed and the technology they had at the time. The 20R/22R has been around since the early 80's and the FSM has not changed but gasket technology has. Like I said before, it depends on the gasket you are using. Just because YOUR engine builder does it, does not make him 100% correct nor does it make him wrong either.

James
agreed. Its a free country. I just replaced the HG so I do plan on retorqueing, used the factory gasket.
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Old 07-11-2011, 05:37 PM
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Re-torque Procedure

INTRO: New to the forum, but I'm on my 3rd trek into my 22RE in 5 years. Bought my '94 4x4 needing a head job. Pulled the head and had it checked and milled and reinstalled. Burned oil on #4 until a full engine rebuild a year later. Head was milled again during engine OH at a shop. Lasted just past warranty before the head failed due to electrolosis. Bought a new head from LC Engineering and grounded it properly per LCE instructions. Had a wreck shortly after and installed a new radiator with electric fan. Lasted 40K miles and blew the head gasket. Never got hot that I saw. Have a manual and factory gauge. Just had the head checked/milled and reinstalled.

DILEMA: After much reading here, I have decided to re-torque my head after 500 miles. I did blow the bolt holes out with 110 psi compressed air and the head bolts went in until they touched the rocker assy. by hand, but I DIPPED the threads of the bolts in oil before installing them.

CHOICES:
1) Do I back the bolts off a 1/4 turn and tighten back to 58 ft lbs following the proper torque sequence?

2) Do I back the bolts off a 1/4 turn and tighten to 65 ft lbs following the proper torque sequence?

3) Do I back all of the bolts off following the proper torque sequence, make a cleaning tap from one of my old head bolts and clean out the bolt holes before lightly lubricating the bolts before reinstallation?

ANY feedback will be greatly appreciated!
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Old 07-11-2011, 06:09 PM
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Im not a nookuler injuneer,nor a convicted felon,but I do work in the heavy truck field {sorry I dont feel like posting my resume}.Dont overthink this,as many experts are going to explain to you how to do.Free advise is usually worth what you pay for it.If you feel the need to retorque,bump it up to 65.Dont back off anything.I torqued my head to 58 with a rock gasket and forgot about it.That was 25k ago.Im sure some eggspurt will explain how this was impossible and I will blow my headgasket and get cavities and my car insurance will go up....a lot of xspurts here are just parroting what they get from some other source.Hell I wonder how many engines a lot of the know it alls have built.But I digress,just being a noob and all.Some ninja wrench will be along shortly to tell you the top secret right way to do it...
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Old 07-11-2011, 06:44 PM
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I was told to torque to 65 and check & retorque if necc by a guy who has been building these 22r's for longer then tim a. has probably been alive. I have rebuilt 1 22r with a rock gasket and have had none of the issues alot of guys on here have had with that gasket. Why? Who knows. All I know is that all I did was follow the advise and did not take shortcuts when rebuilding my engine. ie new head and a resurfaced block, not just slap a new head on and leave the block alone, nor re-use the old head and not have it checked/decked etc etc. You don't have to have built 50 million engines if you have the common sense to follow the instruction given by either manuals or someone who has been building the engine you have been working on for 30 some odd years.
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Old 07-12-2011, 11:22 AM
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Let me ask this, with every Toyota truck with the 22R to roll out of the factory door, how many of the heads were retorqued? I would safely say none and many of them are still on the road today.

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Old 07-12-2011, 11:31 AM
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re-torque

I agree with the comment on the factory built motors.Whats it take to pull the valve cover and chek the head bolts?
I ran my new rebuild past the re-torque spec by the builder, blew the compression seal on the head gasket.
If the builder says re-torque, than its for a reason.
My custom built 3.0 V6 last week,16,000 miles on it destroyed the timing belt,water pump and idlers.Reason was the builder used the old idler tensioner. Guess what? it was locked up when he installed it,and never put the right adjustment on the timing belt.To go back and check a simple thing a the torque spec on a head could save you a bit of time and money.

Last edited by iselloil; 07-12-2011 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 07-12-2011, 11:32 AM
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I can safely say as well headgaskets today aren't the same as head gaskets 20 years ago including the "OEM" ones.
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Old 07-12-2011, 11:43 AM
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re-torque

Just re torque the bolts, dont back them out.
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:49 PM
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Angry

Thread from the dead...

I still stand by my earlier comments of :

Head bolts should not need to be re-torque. Period. If they do then some other force has acted upon them to not seat properly, like dirt or other foreign objects in the bolt hole. If I needed to re-torque the head bolts after a HG job, I would question if the holes were cleaned properly to begin with.

My two cents
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Old 07-12-2011, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by snobdds View Post
Thread from the dead...

I still stand by my earlier comments of :

Head bolts should not need to be re-torque. Period. If they do then some other force has acted upon them to not seat properly, like dirt or other foreign objects in the bolt hole. If I needed to re-torque the head bolts after a HG job, I would question if the holes were cleaned properly to begin with.

My two cents
ONLY retorque if the gasket is designed that way. Most gaskets made today do not require to retorque. Also our technology of fasteners improved as well. The reason why the FSM says retorque is because of the bolt is stretching out of spec and it is loosing the correct clamping force. So be sure to find out what the manufacturer of the head gasket recommends and not the service manual! If a factory Toyota head gasket is used you still need to check. Many factory head gaskets have changed to a torque once application and there may be a TSB on it so do not assume anything.

James
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Old 07-12-2011, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ilostmypants View Post
unless you are spec'ed to add oil to the threads adding oil will change the torque spec more then you might think, I know for a fact you should never ever never lubricate a wheel nut just in case anyone didn't know.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolted_joint
It will give you a more accurate reading. If it was done by a calibrated machine then maybe. When they mass produce engines, it is a calibrated machine torques them down and can adjust for the difference of torque values your manually operated torque wrench can not.

James
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