To torque or not to re torque a 22re
12-10-2010, 06:10 AM
#1
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To torque or not to re torque a 22re
After a rebuild on a 22re motor,I'm getting mixed comments on to re torque the head after a rebuild.Using the Victor gaskets,I've been told to re torque the heads to 65 lbs at 500 miles,and using new head bolts.
Othere say there is no need to re torque the head.Any comments?
Othere say there is no need to re torque the head.Any comments?
12-10-2010, 06:14 AM
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I would love to hear the justification behind NOT re-torquing. IMO it couldn't hurt anything to make sure that the proper torque is still on those bolts and I fail to see any way it would harm anything by doing this. I can see where some would say that it isn't necessary but there are a lot of things that aren't "necessary" but are advantageous to do.
12-10-2010, 06:28 AM
#4
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re-torque them. What reputable person told you not to re-torque them? how much experience do they have with these motors?
I'd be almost willing to bet even Victor would tell you to re-torque them as well.
ENGNBLDR one of the most popular and highly respected 22r people on here even says to re-torque them.
The only type of headbolt I can think of that you might not want to retorque is TTY (torque to yield) ones in which the 22r does not use TTY head bolts. These are the type of head bolts where the threads are designed to stretch. These are easy to spot as the procedure usually has you torque them down in several stages to a certain value each time just like conventional ones but at the end you would turn then say another 1/4 turn past final torque value. That final 1/4 turn is to stretch the threads and basically lock the bolt in place. TTY head bolts are designed never to be reused. 22r head bolts can be reused however it's just better practice to change them out anyway.
I'd be almost willing to bet even Victor would tell you to re-torque them as well.
ENGNBLDR one of the most popular and highly respected 22r people on here even says to re-torque them.
The only type of headbolt I can think of that you might not want to retorque is TTY (torque to yield) ones in which the 22r does not use TTY head bolts. These are the type of head bolts where the threads are designed to stretch. These are easy to spot as the procedure usually has you torque them down in several stages to a certain value each time just like conventional ones but at the end you would turn then say another 1/4 turn past final torque value. That final 1/4 turn is to stretch the threads and basically lock the bolt in place. TTY head bolts are designed never to be reused. 22r head bolts can be reused however it's just better practice to change them out anyway.
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 12-10-2010 at 06:42 AM.
12-10-2010, 09:57 AM
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wait wait wait wait.
are we
1.talking about going back and making sure the bolts are still at the right torque aka putting a tourque wrench on the head bolt and making sure its still at 65ft/lbs
or
2.backing off the bolts then re-tightening them from loose to 65ft/lbs?
are we
1.talking about going back and making sure the bolts are still at the right torque aka putting a tourque wrench on the head bolt and making sure its still at 65ft/lbs
or
2.backing off the bolts then re-tightening them from loose to 65ft/lbs?
12-10-2010, 10:13 AM
#6
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never thought of that but I've seen people do either one. lol. Have to dig up a thread by ENGNBLDR to check what he had mentioned.
Personally I did the #1 on mine.
#2 would require you to reset the valve lash because the pressure on the valve stems by the rockers would mask true torque specs I would think.
Personally I did the #1 on mine.
#2 would require you to reset the valve lash because the pressure on the valve stems by the rockers would mask true torque specs I would think.
12-10-2010, 10:31 AM
#7
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back off 1/4 turn then re-torque, do not back off to 0 torque.
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showth...rue#Post528097
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showfl...an=&page=&vc=1
http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showth...rue#Post528097
>>>*Other than simple overheat, the #1 cause of head gasket failure is clamping force variations.
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
>>>*The "back off 1/4 turn and retorque in sequence" is a method I learned many years ago building engines for racing.
The reason had more to do with using new fastners, it helps to mate the thread pitch to the bolt hole pitch. I used to do that with connecting rod bolts, too, but now I just measure the bolt stretch on those.
When we can measure the bolt stretch, we know what the actual clamping force is. With any bolt going into a blind hole, there is no way to do that.
Clamping force is extremely important, even more important is uniformity. *How do we get to uniformity when dealing with a fastner going into a blind hole?
The answer is we actually don't, we guess....*LOL**.
By "guess", I mean we convert rotational force into expected clamping force using math. By following a correct sequence of tightening the fastners we can thus get pretty darn close to our best guess.
So when the manual says "58 lbs ft" that is a mathematical suggestion.
Up pops..questions. Is that WITH oil, or dry? Used fastners, or brand new? If new, what is the bolt made of? How do we assure close to zero frictionals at the thread contact point?
I remember wondering about that at a big event down in California, I was looking at the head on my own dragster, there was a neat little "V" shape cut into the head right between #2 and #3.
We built another head in a nice man named Kay Sissel's shop in El Monte, he is the one who showed me the method I still use today. I happened to win the race the next day, head gasket held too. That was 1969, Winternationals at Pomona.
So I have installed new fastners the same way ever since. Is it best? All I can say is it works for me.
Gasket failures always have a cause, and the cause is seldom the gasket itself, that failure is normally a result. It can be everything from varying degrees of clamping force, to a difference in temperature extreme internally. The cooling system may do a fine job of keeping the AVERAGE temperature under control, but still there can be a hot spot under the head deck, the possible reasons are very lengthy...
*Any internal area that gets too warm causes localized expansion, guess what happens?.
So when you are climbing up a mountain with the wife, four kids and a load of Holsteins in the trailor on behind and the head gasket lets go?.
*Something in there got too hot....That can happen while she is idling in the yard to warm her up to go to work, too if one cylinder happens to be way lean for some reason........*EB
The reason had more to do with using new fastners, it helps to mate the thread pitch to the bolt hole pitch. I used to do that with connecting rod bolts, too, but now I just measure the bolt stretch on those.
When we can measure the bolt stretch, we know what the actual clamping force is. With any bolt going into a blind hole, there is no way to do that.
Clamping force is extremely important, even more important is uniformity. *How do we get to uniformity when dealing with a fastner going into a blind hole?
The answer is we actually don't, we guess....*LOL**.
By "guess", I mean we convert rotational force into expected clamping force using math. By following a correct sequence of tightening the fastners we can thus get pretty darn close to our best guess.
So when the manual says "58 lbs ft" that is a mathematical suggestion.
Up pops..questions. Is that WITH oil, or dry? Used fastners, or brand new? If new, what is the bolt made of? How do we assure close to zero frictionals at the thread contact point?
I remember wondering about that at a big event down in California, I was looking at the head on my own dragster, there was a neat little "V" shape cut into the head right between #2 and #3.
We built another head in a nice man named Kay Sissel's shop in El Monte, he is the one who showed me the method I still use today. I happened to win the race the next day, head gasket held too. That was 1969, Winternationals at Pomona.
So I have installed new fastners the same way ever since. Is it best? All I can say is it works for me.
Gasket failures always have a cause, and the cause is seldom the gasket itself, that failure is normally a result. It can be everything from varying degrees of clamping force, to a difference in temperature extreme internally. The cooling system may do a fine job of keeping the AVERAGE temperature under control, but still there can be a hot spot under the head deck, the possible reasons are very lengthy...
*Any internal area that gets too warm causes localized expansion, guess what happens?.
So when you are climbing up a mountain with the wife, four kids and a load of Holsteins in the trailor on behind and the head gasket lets go?.
*Something in there got too hot....That can happen while she is idling in the yard to warm her up to go to work, too if one cylinder happens to be way lean for some reason........*EB
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 12-10-2010 at 10:36 AM.
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12-10-2010, 12:21 PM
#9
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It goes against all engineering physics if there is a need to retorque a bolt after an arbitrary number like 500 miles. A bolt, after going through multiple heat cycles should actually get tighter through expanding and contracting, not looser. A bolt will tend to be pulled toward the direction of the heat source, in this case the block is at a higher temperature then the top of the head, thus creating the bolt to be tightened ever so much.
I just had an engine built for me by 22re performance and I asked Jim, the owner and head machinist if this was necessary after all the talk I heard on hear about needing to do it. He explained to me how a new engine, or even work after a HG job, needed to be broken in. After the cam break in, an engine needs to go through 5 or 6 heat cycles to "seat" everything. Heat cycles being, brought up to normal operating temperature and then shut off and cooled to the ambient temperature. If this is done, then those bolts are not going anywhere.
He told me if the engine was broken in properly, then there is no need to retorque the head bolts (studs for me) or redo the valve adjustments. I have put on about 700 on the rebuild and have no valve chatter or leaking head gasket.
So...I guess it depends on who you talk to and how much real world knowledge they have on the topic. Not discrediting Ted, but there is always two sides to every coin.
I just had an engine built for me by 22re performance and I asked Jim, the owner and head machinist if this was necessary after all the talk I heard on hear about needing to do it. He explained to me how a new engine, or even work after a HG job, needed to be broken in. After the cam break in, an engine needs to go through 5 or 6 heat cycles to "seat" everything. Heat cycles being, brought up to normal operating temperature and then shut off and cooled to the ambient temperature. If this is done, then those bolts are not going anywhere.
He told me if the engine was broken in properly, then there is no need to retorque the head bolts (studs for me) or redo the valve adjustments. I have put on about 700 on the rebuild and have no valve chatter or leaking head gasket.
So...I guess it depends on who you talk to and how much real world knowledge they have on the topic. Not discrediting Ted, but there is always two sides to every coin.
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FoRunnerFun91 (10-27-2019)
12-10-2010, 12:35 PM
#10
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this might be true with something that does not have a gasket in between two components. The problem is as the metal heats up it expands yes. Guess what happens with the gasket when those two metals expand? It gets squished. Guess what, that gasket does not rebound like metal does. So what happens with the head bolt torque when effectively you have just removed the tension on the two surfaces provided by the gasket? You guess it, they loosen. Guess what happens when they loosen? You guess it, blown head gasket.
So hows that for a physics lesson for you?
Now mind you it looks like EB recommends that you go in there after initially reaching operating temps. I haven't seen where actually had said to retorque them after that. But you should be going in there and checking valves anyway after so many miles. It wouldn't hurt to check them. After all they were put on by a human and not a Factory's Robot.
Now another thing that acts like the head gasket is the header/exhaust manifold bolts. Most times you have to get back in there and re-torque those as well. Why? because there is a gasket in between them.
So hows that for a physics lesson for you?
Now mind you it looks like EB recommends that you go in there after initially reaching operating temps. I haven't seen where actually had said to retorque them after that. But you should be going in there and checking valves anyway after so many miles. It wouldn't hurt to check them. After all they were put on by a human and not a Factory's Robot.
Now another thing that acts like the head gasket is the header/exhaust manifold bolts. Most times you have to get back in there and re-torque those as well. Why? because there is a gasket in between them.
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 12-10-2010 at 12:40 PM.
12-10-2010, 12:58 PM
#11
Registered User
this might be true with something that does not have a gasket in between two components. The problem is as the metal heats up it expands yes. Guess what happens with the gasket when those two metals expand? It gets squished. Guess what, that gasket does not rebound like metal does. So what happens with the head bolt torque when effectively you have just removed the tension on the two surfaces provided by the gasket? You guess it, they loosen. Guess what happens when they loosen? You guess it, blown head gasket.
So hows that for a physics lesson for you?
Now mind you it looks like EB recommends that you go in there after initially reaching operating temps. I haven't seen where actually had said to retorque them after that. But you should be going in there and checking valves anyway after so many miles. It wouldn't hurt to check them. After all they were put on by a human and not a Factory's Robot.
Now another thing that acts like the head gasket is the header/exhaust manifold bolts. Most times you have to get back in there and re-torque those as well. Why? because there is a gasket in between them.
So hows that for a physics lesson for you?
Now mind you it looks like EB recommends that you go in there after initially reaching operating temps. I haven't seen where actually had said to retorque them after that. But you should be going in there and checking valves anyway after so many miles. It wouldn't hurt to check them. After all they were put on by a human and not a Factory's Robot.
Now another thing that acts like the head gasket is the header/exhaust manifold bolts. Most times you have to get back in there and re-torque those as well. Why? because there is a gasket in between them.
12-10-2010, 01:08 PM
#12
Registered User
ok so maybe i didn;t word it right for a noob, it provides a space between the two components if that space gets smaller because the gasket got squished or "shrunk" then the bolts will loosen up. "tension" is removed from the bolts because there is effectively a smaller space between the block and head.
Make sense now?
on a side note, I do not believe ARP studs require a retorque. I believe they are also typically a higher spec than a factory head bolt as well. Which leads me to believe this squishes the headgasket more than a regular bolt. So the above mentioned issue is not present with the arp studs. Which is probably why 22re performance told you not to retorque your head studs. Not because you don't need to and it's against "physics" but because they are torqued higher than factory specs and do not require it per ARP.
Make sense now?
on a side note, I do not believe ARP studs require a retorque. I believe they are also typically a higher spec than a factory head bolt as well. Which leads me to believe this squishes the headgasket more than a regular bolt. So the above mentioned issue is not present with the arp studs. Which is probably why 22re performance told you not to retorque your head studs. Not because you don't need to and it's against "physics" but because they are torqued higher than factory specs and do not require it per ARP.
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 12-10-2010 at 01:17 PM.
12-10-2010, 02:51 PM
#13
Registered User
According to your theory, we would have to retorque the head bolts down every 500 miles. If there is always this, "squishing" of the gasket because of this "tension" as you put it, what makes it go away after 500 miles? Does it just stop magically?
I'll let the newbie comment slide, only because it's a little presumptuous and I don't need to resort to personal attacks to prove a point.
I'll let the newbie comment slide, only because it's a little presumptuous and I don't need to resort to personal attacks to prove a point.
12-10-2010, 02:52 PM
#14
Registered User
how far can you squish a stack of newspapers? Till they become the same thickness as a single page?
do yourself a favor and look to see how many people re-torque head bolts and how many do not. And I am not just talking about toyota's either. When you do make sure those motors are not TTY head bolts.
I agree in your situation your not gonna want to re-torque yours. You also do not want to re-torque TTY head bolts either.
The real question is here is whether or not to re-torque once after your initial break in and just check them or re-torque them 500 miles later.
Seems as though from what I have read so far it's just after the initial break in.
do yourself a favor and look to see how many people re-torque head bolts and how many do not. And I am not just talking about toyota's either. When you do make sure those motors are not TTY head bolts.
I agree in your situation your not gonna want to re-torque yours. You also do not want to re-torque TTY head bolts either.
The real question is here is whether or not to re-torque once after your initial break in and just check them or re-torque them 500 miles later.
Seems as though from what I have read so far it's just after the initial break in.
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 12-10-2010 at 02:57 PM.
12-10-2010, 03:09 PM
#15
Registered User
The FSM does say to re-torque the bolts but it does not say to back them off. I Never retorqued head bolts on the 22R and I never had any issues even after 85k miles. The sealing technology of today's gaskets are far superior than when the service manual was written that is why Fel-Pro came up with Perma-torque head gaskets.
James
James
12-10-2010, 03:11 PM
#16
Registered User
James and those Perma-torque head gaskets are designed not to "squish" as much as an OEM gasket correct?
"There are multiple solid layers of heat-treated stainless steel separated by a very thin rubber coating, and the layers are either active (absorbing motion between the head and block) or shim layers (giving the gasket its correct compressed thickness)."
"There are multiple solid layers of heat-treated stainless steel separated by a very thin rubber coating, and the layers are either active (absorbing motion between the head and block) or shim layers (giving the gasket its correct compressed thickness)."
Last edited by xxxtreme22r; 12-10-2010 at 03:15 PM.
12-10-2010, 07:39 PM
#17
Registered User
It all depends on the gaskets you are using. Some require retorque others do not.
http://www.federalmogul.com/en/After...s/Permatorque/
Most aftermarket quality head gaskets require only torquing the head once. By retorquing a gasket that is designed only to be torque once could damage the gasket and cause leaks. I ALWAYS use some kind of oil on the threads of the bolt and oil under the washer and head of the bolt to prevent binding when torquing down the bolt.
James
http://www.federalmogul.com/en/After...s/Permatorque/
Most aftermarket quality head gaskets require only torquing the head once. By retorquing a gasket that is designed only to be torque once could damage the gasket and cause leaks. I ALWAYS use some kind of oil on the threads of the bolt and oil under the washer and head of the bolt to prevent binding when torquing down the bolt.
James
12-10-2010, 07:54 PM
#18
Registered User
Re-torquing the head IS a good idea. If you installed the bolts correctly, they will NOT move. If they do move, no big deal, just make sure you torque them in the proper sequence. This is much more important than the final toque rating, which should be around 58ft/lbs
12-10-2010, 10:16 PM
#19
It all depends on the gaskets you are using. Some require retorque others do not.
http://www.federalmogul.com/en/After...s/Permatorque/
Most aftermarket quality head gaskets require only torquing the head once. By retorquing a gasket that is designed only to be torque once could damage the gasket and cause leaks. I ALWAYS use some kind of oil on the threads of the bolt and oil under the washer and head of the bolt to prevent binding when torquing down the bolt.
James
http://www.federalmogul.com/en/After...s/Permatorque/
Most aftermarket quality head gaskets require only torquing the head once. By retorquing a gasket that is designed only to be torque once could damage the gasket and cause leaks. I ALWAYS use some kind of oil on the threads of the bolt and oil under the washer and head of the bolt to prevent binding when torquing down the bolt.
James
12-11-2010, 06:18 AM
#20
Registered User
I agree also, if there is a need to retorque a head bolt then its either because the hole was not cleaned out properly and there is still gunk in there or oil was not used in the inital seating of the bolts.
Take an oil filter for example, I only put those on hand tight. Once the oil is ready for changing, that filter is on there tight enough that I need an oil filter wrench to get it off. There is only a rubber gasket on there? The reason it gets tighter is because of the heat cycles and the expansion and contraction pulling it towards the block, where the heat is. It's simple thermal dynamics.
Take an oil filter for example, I only put those on hand tight. Once the oil is ready for changing, that filter is on there tight enough that I need an oil filter wrench to get it off. There is only a rubber gasket on there? The reason it gets tighter is because of the heat cycles and the expansion and contraction pulling it towards the block, where the heat is. It's simple thermal dynamics.
