Ilovemountains

I need a hand, I have 300 miles on a totally rebuilt 1993 22RE and the top end sounds terrible. The engine had unknown miles or history, I bought it on Craigslist and took it to a local machine shop with a rebuild kit from Yotashop, all OEM parts. 20 over on the pistons 10 over on the crank, block looked good, I do not think the bottom end is the issue. They did a full valve job on the head and rebuilt it with new springs, however I re-used the unknown cam and rocker assembly during assembly. The oil is clean and its running good other than some pinging that I need to figure out but man the top end sounds terrible. I did helicoil a few cam bolts in the head but overall it looks good... Any ideas, could this be the cam or rocker assembly is just shot? Ive adjusted the valves twice, once cold to the cold spec, now to the hot speck, sounds didnt change. The valve cover is not tight, its barely on there and the entire timing set is new from Yotashop.

Timing is set at 5BTDC wtih the pins jumped and the idle does droop but if I rev it while jumped the timing does advance, Ive read that this isnt supposed to happen that jumping the pins is supposed to stop any advancement, Ive also read that jumping the pins alows the timing to drop to its lowest point aka removes any existing advancement.

Either way the valve train or something sounds bad and I dont want to risk a road trrip and have the cam come out of its bearings or similar, any ideas?

Bad head all together, rocker assembly? Cam is flat and trash, Cam bearings are just crap?

Link to video revving it, the bottom end sounds great with a stethoscope on the valve cover I hear a rapping but its not a rocker hitting the cover!


https://1drv.ms/v/s!Aql0J0OmxjKhiWRijiReBAOviH_v

Ilovemountains

I really dont want to pull the head but am ready to buy a new one and just swap it out all together! This is so frustrating.........

gsp4life

That sewing machine is way too loud!

Am I reading right that you never got to hear the engine run before the rebuild? Were the cam lobes measured? Do the rocker arms have any play if you wiggle them? Rocker shaft oil passages can get clogged with gunk. The outer surface of the shafts can become badly gouged and affect rocker movement. Too many variables too really know without going back in and inspecting/measuring the top end friction surfaces.

Ilovemountains

[QUOTE=gsp4life;52378571]That sewing machine is way too loud!

Am I reading right that you never got to hear the engine run before the rebuild? Were the cam lobes measured? Do the rocker arms have any play if you wiggle them? Rocker shaft oil passages can get clogged with gunk. The outer surface of the shafts can become badly gouged and affect rocker movement. Too many variables too really know without going back in and inspecting/measuring the top end friction surfaces.[/QUOTE

You are correct, I bought the engine 100% complete, already pulled. I didn't even think to discuss the cam or rockers. I assembled the engine, the cam and journals looked OK, never checked the rockers for oil flow.... I assumed the machine shop checked everything but I must have been wrong! I can't isolate it

anndel

[QUOTE=Ilovemountains;52378581]Exactly you got it! I have the same noise and traced it to the top end. rocker arms are loose and read the rocker shaft could be the source due to clogged oil passages. I'm still thinking if I should replace the head from 22RE Performance (with rocker arms, cam shaft, shaft rod, etc., already installed) or a rebuilt engine from them.

Melrose 4r

Be sure whoever built this engine used the correct cam followers for the cam.
I once had a 20r built by a reputable shop. I chose a Crane cam that required 22r cam followers. Yes, they are different in shape.
The shop put the original followers on it and they dragged the cam to death in a couple hundred miles by dragging against the lobes.
Look very closely to see that only the part of the follower that is suppsed to make contact with the cam lobe is making contact.
​​​​​​​

gsp4life

[QUOTE=anndel;52378586]If you're able to consider buying a $3-4000 engine, this may not apply, but for a lot less $$$ and wait time, this is what I did with good results: get an Engnbldr head and cam (I got the stock-level ones for $420). Get 22reperformance rocker shafts (more oiling holes, new set screws included) and new valve adjuster screws. Clean the hell out of your rocker arms, towers and springs inside and out. For a good-as-new stock head and rocker assembly you'll be out ~$550.

​​​​Or buy it complete from 22reperformance, but after shipping, you're gonna be in over a grand and have to wait months to get it. At that point, depending on the condition of your bottom end, it might make more sense to buy a complete engine from them.

Ilovemountains

Thanks for the info. The engine is all new inside with the exception of the cam and rockers, which at this point I think its safe to assume is my issue. I guess Im going to tear it back down and replace the cam and rockers, man this sucks. I spent quite a bit of time building this thing and honestly never put any thought into the cam and rockers, no sense in running it anymore either and risking ruining the bottom end... Frustrating to say the least!

Melrose 4r

Before tearing it down, just remove the valve cover and take out each lock nut and adjuster on the rockers. Inspect each one for even or uneven wear. You may just have to replace a couple of them.

gsp4life

I know the feeling, went through a similar thing recently when I stripped a head bolt threading during a hg retorque mishap.

It's a good amount of extra work to tear back down again, but at least the block can stay on the bellhousing and motor mounts this time. I had mine back on the road again in 3 weeks and I stripped down and repainted everything again including the block because I used crap paint the first time and hated how quick it was rusting and wearing off.

You'll know more once you're in there, but you probably need a new camshaft, (the rocker arms might be ok, inspect and measure them), valve adjuster screws, and a head gasket set. Not the best news, but not life-crushing either.

Btw, I have to ask: what kind of assembly lube and oil did you use to break in the new engine? I know it's not as critical with a reused cam, but I think it still matters.

Ilovemountains

Thanks again, I used Lubriplate from Napa to assemble everything and used Maxima racing oil 2x zinc 10w30 break in oil, which is still in the engine. I guess the good news is the noise hasn't changed, Im going to pull the cam cover and the adjusters out and see if I can visually identify anything. The machine shop did put my new OEM stem seals in with new springs but reused the old valves and retainers when they rebuild the head for me. Id love to find a few worn out adjuster screws and be done with this, when I put the rockers on nothing felt out of place but I didnt measure anything, I still cant wrap my own head around why with all the time and money Ive put into rebuilding this engine and transmission I didnt just put a new cam and rocker assembly on it, or even a complete new head for that matter!!!

gsp4life

Melrose 4r has a good point: it could be as small as problem as a few worn out adjusters. Even if they're all worn badly, real easy fix but would make for a lot of extra chatter.

I've been through a number of catastrophic issues on the 22re, so my thoughts tend towards glass half-empty with them. That said, keeping the original camshaft is sometimes a good idea because Toyota made them out of harder metal than newer castings as far as I'm aware. The rocker assemblies are durable parts, but can use a good cleaning during a rebuild and the rocker shafts will wear out before the arms (steel losing to aluminum, go figure!). We'll see how your adjusters look soon.

millball

Steel loses to aluminum because hard grit embeds itself in the soft metal and stays there, abrading the harder metal over time.

This phenomenon was observed in watch and clockmaking over 500 years ago.

Clockmakers saw that their brass wheels were largely undamaged after long service, while the steel pinions were badly worn away.

gsp4life

That's a good history lesson, thanks. Also makes me wish I had inspected the inner bearing surfaces of my rocker arms more closely. I cleaned them really well and didn't see anything obvious, but time will tell...

mattyboi

Mine sounds pretty similar. I readjusted the valves, and although it did quiet it down some, the annoying tick is still there! I'm thinking of getting getting a new rocker arm assembly, (maybe a camshaft too) and keeping the original head.

Should I avoid driving it in the meantime? It seems every time I bring this up, half the people say it's fine...that's what an old yota sounds like! And the other half say it's a ticking time bomb.

millball

I say its fine to drive. Ticking time bomb??? What do you think can catastrophicly fail???

Nothing, is the answer, provided that the noise is actually from the cam and rockers and not timing chain, or other source.

superex87

What did you set your valve lash to? The Manuel calls for .008 intake and .012 exhaust HOT. I found this to be much too loose on my 22r, engine was clacking like a diesel. I just adjusted mine to COLD intake .007 and .011 exhaust. Engine is as quiet as a brand new modern engine and runs awesome as well. Everyone will want to debate wither they should be adjusted hot or cold. Give the cold adjustment a try and report back with your findings.

mattyboi

.008 and .012 hot and it sounded like a diesel. More of a clacking. Cold .007 and .011 made it quieter but theres still a noticeable tick.

mattyboi

Here is what mine sounds like. Idling fast because I just started it but the ticking doens't go away after warm up. Could this potentially be rod knock?

Melrose 4r

Hard to tell much from that vid but i dont hear any rod knock.
With rod knock or cracked piston you can put the plug wires one at a time
and the sound will go away on the bad cyl.