artemyk

Last Friday, I found coolant in the oil of my girlfriend's 1993 pickup 22re. Got a compression test done and one of the cylinders is not holding pressure. So it looks like the head gasket is blown.

I'm not much of a mechanic, but I have previously changed a head gasket on a 1990 BMW m20 engine. The procedure for the 22re looks similar, so I'm going to attempt it. I know there are several guides and FSM/Haynes out there, so I will try to avoid asking question regarding the basic steps.

However, I am wondering about a couple of miscellaneous questions --

1) To my surprise, I see lots of aftermarket 22RE assembled cylinder heads for like $200-250 including shipping. Is it true that these are more trouble than they are worth? I.e. better to machine the head, or buy an OEM rebuilt head (which I can also find for ~$250)? I know engnbldr.com has heads for ~350 (and I'd have to move my cam over -- I guess this is pretty easy?) but is more than I wanted to invest if possible. Would the standard recommendation be to avoid the aftermarket heads?

2) I see a lot of things about ARP heads bolts. What is the advantage of these versus regular (OEM or aftermarket) torque-to-yield head bolts?

3) I know timing chain guide problems are common. E.g. they can break off chunks. How likely is it that I'll need to drop the oil pan? I'd really like to avoid this if at all possible, seems like a PITA. Should I basically just check if the timing chain guides look OK once the valve cover is off? If they are broken, have to drop the pan?

4) I've seen random recommendations about applying sealant during the procedure. For example, some say to put black rtv on the corners of the block before putting the HG on. Is this correct? Any other weird places to put sealant?

Any other info about unusual surprises would be appreciated. If all goes well, this actually looks like a fun project ;-)

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

How many miles ??

Just how long has the coolant and oil been mixing they don`t mix well unless your using straight water.

Aftermarket heads I would trust Engine Builder I have never seen any of the others in person

Check your head for cracks and being straight unless your getting into the bottom end not much more you want to do.

Head coming off you really might want to do the timing chain

These are not Torque to yield head bolts It seems the back ones tend to sometimes get more effected by the heat a call one needs to make in person

There is some advantage to using the ARP Studs but with a engine putting out less then 150 horse power myself I can`t get excited now 500 horsepower would be quite different

The head bolts get torqued to 65 foot pounds seems the corrections never get to the owners of the FSM.

It is mechanical things can go bad real quick bolts break things round off.

artemyk

Car has ~ 180k miles.

Engine / coolant mixing -- I would guess it hasn't been driven more than 20 miles like this (some of it pretty intense uphill though). BTW, any special trick to clean up the sludge out of the engine? Talked to the guy who did the compression test, he recommended flushing the cooling system with some lightly soapy water, then regular water, then 50/50. Engine-wise he said to just put in regular oil, then do another oil change after 500 miles.

Yes, planning on doing the timing chain, plus h20 & oil pump, belts, etc.

arlindsay1992

iTrader: (8)

I'd check the head for cracks. You can send it to a machine shop and have them look it over but if you know what to look for there's no need. Look for cracks between where the valve guides are closest to each other and between the cooling passages and the combustion chamber. If it didn't overheat then you probably won't have any issues. OEM is best, obviously. I only had one aftermarket head and it came on my 4Runner. Thing cracked in 5 places. I put the blame on any brand, I have no idea who made it except that it wasn't a Toyota casting. Don't worry about the brand for most of the gaskets but make sure the head gasket is OEM Toyota.

There is absolutely no need for ARP studs. Just get new head bolts and save your money for something useful.

The guides are a common issue. Get a new timing set with the metal reinforced guides. Easy to do when the head is off. If yours are broken it's up to you if you want to drop the pan to clean up the chunks. Plenty of people leave the pieces in there and are totally fine. The hardest part is lowering/removing the front diff so you have room to work. Completely doable just not fun.

Sealant is required on the oil pan, one specific oil pump bolt (check a manual for which one), the distributor hold down bolt, the half moons for the valve cover, and just a dabble at the interface of the block, timing cover, and head gasket. Make sure you install the timing cover before the head. I'm not sure why people feel compelled to install the head first then the timing cover. That's just asking for future leaks and tearing gaskets. I'm sure it can and has been done successfully, but it's harder, wrong, and higher risk so I don't see the point.

Where are you located? If you're anywhere close by I'd be willing to lend a helping hand and some knowledge. Maybe spare parts too if you need some odds and ends.

artemyk

@arlindsay1992 -- that is invaluable information! I'm in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Unfortunately pretty far , thanks so much for the offer.

Engine did overheat, possibly badly. I will probably get the head checked for warp/cracks at the machine shop, I think they'll check it for free. They want $100 for milling (which seems good) and $300-400 for milling plus valve job, which seems excessive.

Is there any way to check if its not just a head gasket but also the rings are bad? I think there's a way to do it with a special compression test but I'm not sure they did that for me (will pick up the truck in a few hours). Can I tell visually once the head is off?

Any tips of where to find an OEM head gasket online?

Finally, I see that the valve adjustments are supposed to be done hot. So is the idea to assemble everything, run the engine for a while, then stop, disconnect vacuum lines, pop open the valve cover, and do the adjustments before it cools down?

arlindsay1992

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, New Mexico is a pretty long drive from Virginia Beach. Figured I'd ask just in case you were close.

Free checking isn't bad. That milling price doesn't seem bad. I've always just lapped the original valves myself. You'll need a valve spring compressor and some time but it's not hard. Put new valve stem seals in and you're good to go. Saves you $300. Unless you actually need the valve seats cut a good lap job will do.

No way to check the rings for sure without disassembly. You can check if the cylinder walls are scored. If so the rings are probably shot. Was it burning oil or smoking before? If so the rings might be bad. Other than that a compression test dry then wet would tell you. Lastly you could pull the pan off, loosen the rod caps, and pop the pistons out just to inspect. If the cylinders don't look bad and it was running good before I'd honestly just take the risk and put it back together as is.

Order the head gasket from ToyotaPartsDeal.com.

Exactly. I set it to the warm setting before I start the truck. Start it up and set ignition timing etc. Check for leaks and such until it's warm then shut it down and set the valves to the same setting again.

artemyk

Truck wasn't smoking before, it's actually still not really smoking, and ran pretty well . It was going through quite a bit of oil but I think that was leaks. I'll check the sides of the cylinders and hope for the best, I guess.

Found some guy an hour away who'll give me a milled and valve job'ed head for $170 + my old one. Seems like a great deal, might take him up on it.

4RunnerFreak12

That's a great deal! I was gonna say before spending 3-400 on your old head just get a new one from ENGNBLDR they have stock replacement and street rv w/ bigger valves depending on your budget. Would def go that route tho 170 would be awesome. Make sure you look it over good and trade everything over (ie egr plate on back of head, lil plate opposite the dizzy, and rocker arms)

make sure it needs it tho- follow proper removal process so u have best chance and measure with straight edge.

Get a cam ($100) before arp head bolts! I just got new ones and called it good.

EDIT do compression test on that bad cylinder then squirt a lil oil in there if compression numbers stay bad it's probably valves, if it goes up probably rings

as mentioned get HD Timing kit w/ metal backed guides from ENGNBLDR

good luck

artemyk

@4RunnerFreak12 -- thanks for great tips!

I got the timing kit from Mizumoauto on Ebay. I know ENGNBLDR is very highly recommended, but $ is tight right now. Has anyone had a verifiably bad experience with the Mizumo version?

So, a cam makes a noticeable performance difference? (kind of new to this ;-) )

snobdds

Usually if water and oil are mixing on the 22re,. the timing chain has worn a hole through the water jacket on the timing cover. You may not even need a new head. The no compression could be a sticky valve.

Get in and tear it down to check. The 22re is the easiest engine in the world to work on. I usually just pull the engine every 100,000 miles and go over everything. The engine can be pulled in a morning working slowly. Just loosen the crank bolt before removing.

artemyk

Once I pull the head , is there any immediately tell-tale signs that I need a valve job?

toyospearo

regardless of what you might see on the head the only way to be sure of what is going on is to take it to a reputable shop and have it vacuum tested and checked for warpage. There's far too much work involved putting the engine back together not to have a shop give it the looksee.

4RunnerFreak12

Not really a crack more of a chip or ding

Like "Toyospearo" said take it to a shop and have them look it over especially if budget is very tight (who's isn't) if it's not warped or cracked might as well have them do a valve job and save the money for all the little things that add up fast.

My head looked like this after melting a piston so was easy decision for me- although maybe it could have been repaired I already had a new head tho. I thought it blew the head gasket so got a street rv head and 261 cam to help with performance (low end torque) Why you don't buy parts til you tear into it and see what it needs, I like to plan out my projects so try to buy what I can before tear down so less down time but hard to predict somethings.

artemyk

So there might be a twist to the story.

I should start by saying that the original compression test was done at Pep Boys. On the phone, the mechanic told me that the #2 cylinder was bad. We did not get into the specifics of the readings. When I picked up the truck the day after, they could not give me a report with the compression readings (I know, it's weird).

I started working on the car and got to the point where the valve cover is off. First off, the valves seem quite tight (have not adjusted them yet though). More pertinently, I found the timing chain very loose , the driver's side guide destroyed and that the chain had eaten into the timing chain cover. I haven't got the timing chain cover off yet, so I don't know how deeply it ate through it, but its fairly deep . (BTW, this truck has been making a chain-like rattle for a while now -- now I know what it is )

I was talking to a neighbor of mine who is quite mechanically inclined and described what happens with 22RE and also how I never got the original compression readings. He has a compression tester and said, "Why don't we do a compression test right now?" We did it a few times, and to confirm his readings, I ran over to Autozone and borrowed their newer compression tester. We consistently got:
Cylinders 1, 3 and 4 @ 125-130
Cylinder 2 @ 95-105
This was with the engine cold and the oil drained (yes, probably not good to crank the engine w/o oil, but I figured a few turns wouldn't hurt it).

My neighbor was saying he would not start messing with the head / head gasket / etc. with readings like that (obviously I will replace the timing chain, tensioner, etc.)

- Given these readings, is it possible that the HG is fine and this is a timing chain cover issue?
- My neighbor suggested tightening things up by slightly loosening the head bolts and then retorquing them to spec. Is this a bad idea?
- I'm still puzzled by why I saw coolant in the oil shortly after the car overheated. My initial thought was this definitively means blown head gasket. But now I'm thinking -- if there was a tiny passage where the timing chain ate through the cover, and the coolant got very very hot, i.e. high-pressure steam, may that's when it would force itself through the passage.

Anyhow, I'm more confused than ever now. I would of course prefer to not replace the head gasket, mill the head , etc. if thats not even the problem.

Advise really welcome! ;-)

4RunnerFreak12

Don't loosen the bolts if anything maybe torque them to 65 ft/ibs (in sequence)

Although should be no more then 10% variation between cylinders and being under 100 psi isn't good

Inspect timing cover to see if it went thro and determine if it needs new one if so might as well get new water pump and oil pump.

Otherwise plan to do head gasket sure you could do Timing chain and cover replacement with it on but much easier with it off and don't have to stress pinching the head gasket when your installing the timing cover.

break the crank bolt loose NOW before removing anything else

artemyk

Will definitely inspect timing cover. Already have a new water pump and oil pump on the way, so will change those no matter way.

Got the crank bolt loose already. This actually gave me a scare -- tried the 'starter trick' with a breaker bar + regular 19mm socket and it started stripping the bolt. Finally got it off with the starter and a 3/4" impact socket, which gave a much snugger fit.

Was looking at http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...ingChain.shtml and it seems like changing the timing chain w.o taking off the head was pretty doable.

4RunnerFreak12

Oh yeah that site is great! Awesome info and great ideas for things (i.e. Seat lift kit!)

Yes it's certainly doable can use feeler gauges to help hold the HG up while you guide the timing cover in place

clean the parts good tho don't want gunk/oil from the head dripping down while installing timing cover- kinda over exaggeration really just wanna be sure no oily residue on anything the FIPG needs to stick to the surfaces. I like brakleen red can that stuff is awesome I use it in everything (Its the best thing for cleaning wasps nest!)

Have you talked with anyone else about those compression numbers? Maybe don't stress it but I would try to ask a few ppl and verify the tolerances.
Or did you retorque the head and re compression test yet? Would try that before tearing down too far so you know if your HG is good or not

artemyk

From looking around, 100 seems low indeed.

However, I'm not sure if I'm trusting the compression readings. I tried it with two different testers -- one from my neighbor, one loaned from Autozone. The one my neighbor has is really old, and the one from Autozone came with a faulty hose (it was reading a lot lower than the neighbor's, until we switched the hoses!). I've also torqued the head bolts to 65 ft/lbs (most didn't move, but 2 did) and the compression stayed the same or went down.

What I should have really done is -- before disconnecting anything at all -- gotten a good compression tester, and then did a dry / wet test myself with the engine warmed up. Or really , a leak down test. Now the engine is half apart & oil drained, no way to warm it up, don't want to crank it too much without oil, battery probably slowly losing power ( I would imagine power to the starter could affect compression results?), etc etc. So, yeah, live and learn.

At this point I'm just going to pull the head. Hopefully I'll see that its a problem on top (HG has clearly failed, or a valve looks bad, etc.) or , not hopefully, bottom (scoring on the cylinders, clean edges on the piston heads, etc.). If the latter, I'm not sure what to do, I don't have resources/time to pull the engine and rebuild . Maybe will scrap the car :-( How long can a 22RE run with a good head and crappy rings?

Making slow progress due to day job, but head should be off tomorrow (fingers crossed). Will post pics ;-)

(I must say I expected Haynes & FSM to be far more helpful than they are)



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4RunnerFreak12

Low battery won't matter

I would tear it down and see if it's just the head gasket and timing cover/chain (which is super common) in which case would be worth fixing. Much deeper and its debatable especially for someone without many tools or resources. Overall it's pretty easy tho and you can find a ton of info here to do it. A full rebuild kit is $138 on rockauto w/Pistons so pretty reasonable. Heck the head gasket is only $8 so really hard to go wrong.

I would not plan to run with bad rings knowingly why bother doing the head work and all just to break a ring and have it take the engine out at the worse possible time? Just see what it needs and go from there.

ATLEAST Plan to do it right!

Go buy a torque wrench that's the most important thing. And a timing light. Other than that should be able to replace HG with basic tools, can borrow a lot of tools from most auto parts stores.

You got the crank bolt loosened that was the hardest part for me!

Probably the EASIEST engine you could LEARN to rebuild (worse case) Heck I am doin it!

artemyk

Great tips, 4RunnerFreak.

Got the head off today! I posted pixs and update on a new thread, titled "Head off (w. pix), help me diagnose compression problem" ;-)