svdude

iTrader: (3)

I'm not even really sure I have a problem but I figured I would throw it out to the masses.

Here's the deal: My buddy put 35's on his runner (with stock 4.56 gearing) and he still spanks me in the power department on driving around town and on the freeway. I'm floored in 3rd and 4th gear to try and even get 70mph, I feel like it struggles to get up to speed around town. I have 35's and 4.88 gearing, I should be able to keep up with bill all day long. I have a built 22re motor with the following:

8k miles on a new motor
Bored .030 on the cylinders
268 cam from engnbldr
engnbldr street rv head
LCE headers
LCE underdrive pulley kit
new flow matched fuel injectors
all new electronics under the hood (engine sensors, etc.)

According to the folks at engnbldr and LCE performance, I should have around 140-150hp and 150ish for torque. My motor falls flat on its face at 4000rpm (I guess this is normal for a 22re?).

But I should have more power than what I am feeling. I should at least be able to keep up with my friend in the get up and go department.

As soon as I rebuilt my motor I did a compression test and was at 180psi in ALL cylinders. That test was also at about 1000ft ASL (above sea level).

I just did another compression test and was a little disturbed with what I found. Keep in mind that I am now at 5500ft ASL.

#1 cyl was at 125 psi
#2 cyl was at 130 psi
#3 cyl was at 135 psi
#4 cyl was at 145 psi

I know that this isn't the overall determination of the health of my motor but I figured that I should be at least 150-160psi and have somewhat of an even psi per cylinder, not a 20psi difference.

I took a picture of my spark plugs. They are a hotter burning NGK plug. From what I can tell on my plugs is that I am not running rich or lean, the cylinders are burning as they should.

#1 and #2 Spark plugs:


#3 and #4 Spark plugs:


This makes me wonder... do I have issues with my piston rings or valves? What gives? I have a bunch of money in my engine and it's very frustrating. I know the 22re isn't a monster for power but it should still have more guts than what it has.

Any suggestions? I'm starting to think that I should pull the head and check out the valves and possibly hone and re-ring the engine. I am going through about 1qt of oil per 1500-2000 miles that I just found that I have a slight leak on the back of the valve cover.

I'm ready to blow up my engine and buy a supra or newer 4runner for a motor swap.

MaK92-4RnR

if you have a built motor and his is stock with 4.56 gearing. you have an issue somewhere. whats his have done to it?

svdude

iTrader: (3)

His engine and drive train is completely stock. He also has a 3inch lift which should work against him too.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

So your saying his stock 22rec engine with 456 gears just walks away from you.

You having a built 22rec engine with 488 gears .

Are you sure of your gear ratio???

have you measured the real size of the tires ??

Is the tread depth the same??

A new tire compared to a almost worn out tire can make a big difference in the final gear ratio.

You both have the 5 speed and you have the same gear oil in all the gear boxes.

It could be the rings just have not seated yet.

How do you have your timing set??

under what conditions did you get the uniform compression test??

Have you readjusted your valves since the initial start up of the engine since it all was new.

Did you run the cam in correctly ??

All kinds of interesting things could cause this issue try and eliminate the easy ones first.:jessica:

toyota4x4907

TOYOTA specs for engine compression are 141-171 PSI, with no more than 14 PSI between the lowest and highest.

What year is his 4runner? Since you say "stock 4.56 gears" I'm going to assume it is a '92-'95 with a 3.0L v6.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Could be many things, but that compression doesn't sound right at such low mileage. It's not LIKELY the Head but one or the other/head or lower end/ is causing your loss of compression... And something therein is also causing the 20# difference, which is outside of acceptable according to the rules, lol... Right? So before you pull the head, etc., ... why not do a leak down? This way you can pin point it to either "Bottom End", "Top End", which hole specifically and where/which side it's losing compression.. etc.

Have you gone back in and adjusted the valves since installing the head? Would try that as well before pulling the head... You could have a couple lashes have gone loosey goosey on ya...

Leak Down and Valve Adjustment is my recommendation for first steps.

My 22RE is built less, a lil bit, and I pull 90+mph.... I'm on 32's right now and 4.30 gearing.... With 35's, and even 4.88's, I might struggle a bit more to get even close to that top end.. But I would think I could do close to 80 in 5th, whining a bit at 3200-3300rpm with the 4.88's and 35's.

PS> Not related to compression as much, ... but can limit performance quite a bit.... have you checked into the CAT? Also, my buddy had some different than usual issues with top end when his PCV was heading south/sticking a bit at times.

Best wishes.

abecedarian

Does it run better if you disconnect the exhaust?
I.e.: without a catalytic converter in line.

svdude

iTrader: (3)

New development!!! I think my motor is absolutely fudged!!

I haven't really checked my oil in the last couple weeks. As a matter as a fact, I put a quart in it on the 4th of July. I not added 3 (yes, 3) quarts of oil in the motor and the oil is now showing up on the dip stick. Not only that, I have some metal deposits on the bottom of my dip stick.

I did the leakdown test on the #1 cylinder. It showed 100% compression loss. I didn't test the other 3 cylinders.

Between the fact that I lost 3 quarts of oil in one month, and the loss of compression in the #1 cylinder leads me to believe that either the piston rings are shot or the machine work on the cylinders weren't done right... or both!

FML!!! At this point I think that I need to tear apart my motor or drive it till it breaks.

I guess it's a good time for a motor swap??

Nate: If I do a motor swap, I'll still only have 6 spark plugs but I think that's good enough

blake.nemitz

2jzgtte would be a good sixer to get you there.

westjohns yota

7mgte

Kiroshu

Silly engine builders...

svdude

iTrader: (3)

So, I called and talked to one of the guys at engnbldr in Oregon. He suggested something that I never even thought about. I had the engine block decked about .010. I never had the timing chain cover decked with it. That .010 is just enough of a gap to destroy a head gasket and give me the compression numbers that I'm getting between the #1 and #4 cylinders. He is suggesting that the head is sitting high on the front of the engine because of that .010 gap and explains why I have a lower compression towards the front of the engine, #1 cylinder not holding pressure, engine using oil (oil galley near the #1 piston), and no power because the #1 and #2 cylinders don't have a very good seal around the head gasket.

Interesting... This gives me another avenue to investigate when I tear apart my engine.

BTW: For anyone considering using engnbldr.com, go for it! They have been extremely helpful for anything I have ever needed. Their customer service is phenomenal!!


Update:
So I have everything taken apart with the exception of the head bolts. I did just find out that either I put my timing chain on wrong or it jumped a tooth. I'm going to assume that I put it on wrong because I don't see it jumping teeth this early in its life. With the crank at tdc, the cam is also at tdc when it should be at the 1100-1130 position.





This would explain a little bit of a loss of power but not the ascending compression numbers not the horrible leak down test especially when I'm able to move the rocker arms when testing that associated cylinder.

I'm taking the head off soon and will take a peek at the head gasket and the pistons/cylinders.

__________________

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

You can move the rockers for a lil bit of a window, SV.... If you're skipped to where it's just 'LATER' on the rotation.... then the cam lobe just hasn't reached where IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE just yet/or is past it(?)... And thus you would have slop/not a proper, lash settable location of Lobe-and-Rocker.

Personally, I'm thinking you AT LEAST have to pull the cover, reset the chain and maybe take the cover in for a shaving...(YES, I think you CAN do it with them separate, IF you have a VERY SPECIFIC measurement of Pan to Head surface of the block.... Not measuring tape, IOW, hahaa... .But Micrometer measurement. If you can measure the amount between the block deck and timing cover portion that's risen.... I don't see why they can't shave that off PRECISELY to where you need it. SURE, it would BE MUCH better to have the motor out and in his hands(a machinist)... But at least give on a call, right? (this would involve pulling the head, obviously, to get the proper measurement of block deck height and timing cover height, right guys????)

Far as still having odd compression/especially so low for such low miles/... Could be that you've washed the piston tops/rings enough with steam(not enough to cause a cloud, but maybe enough to cause bad wear on the walls and OVER wearing of the rings/causing a gap to form, slowly, where you're losing compression?)... But yes, that's interesting for such a low miles motor to have such low compression all the way across... THIS IS WHY THE LEAK DOWN... And now, seeing that your chain is WAY OFF, ...that could be HUGE in causing lower compression, man... Think about it.. Let's say IT DID jump a tooth for some reason(maybe 2 teeth?)...... it could be that things are just open or closed too long and, eeeek... maybe making 'CONTACT'?? All it takes is ONCE for that valve to get slapped(Or all of them) and you could lose that '100% SEATING'.. right? You really need the cover off to at LEAST reset the chain.... I would take the harmonic off, too, and just BE CERTAIN it's not also what happened to me... My crank dowel had worn to where it almost sheared off! So I had what, a couple % points difference in where things SHOULD ACTUALLY be running, all the time...Bcuz the crank cog key being shaved nearly off allowed the crank to come around MORE than it would say on the 'timing marker portion on the oil pump... right?

LOTS can go wrong to cause compression issues... And it's either in the head or block, ya knwo?...... But, either way, I'd start with that timing cover/and resetting it. YOU CAN NOT go on like that, either way. Maybe then slap it back together and see if your compression numbers improve?(And if you pulled the head to do it per FSM instructions...*which I WOULD do, not pulling the cover without pulling the head... And also so you can see what measurement to have the t-cover milled to???* ... then you could at least have the head checked out to be sure nothing made contact/bent, right? )

svdude

iTrader: (3)

I understand what you're saying about the timing but that doesn't explain the fact that the #1 cylinder doesn't hold any pressure. If I can wiggle the rocker arms then that means the valves should be fully seated. If the valves are fully seated, they should be sealed. If they're not sealed then the head needs to come off either way in order to inspect.

I got all the head bolts off and there was a brown milkshake on the #8 head bolt. There wasn't any milkshake in the oil nor was I loosing any noticeable amount of coolant. To me that means that somewhere there was just a tad bit of coolant leaking into the oil passage in that area somewhere.

As for the timing chain cover being a little bit taller, according to the guys at engnbldr.com I can just get a file and shave it myself with a file as long as I'm careful. He said to get a straight edge and run it across the top of the engine block and file the cover until the straight edge moves evenly across the top of the block and the timing chain cover.

More to come

svdude

iTrader: (3)

So I took the head off and From a quick visual inspection, I don't see anything wrong. I did find a little bit of oil on the back of the head which makes me wonder if I had two separate problems that I considered one problem. Maybe I had a bit of an oil leak coming from the back of the head (valve cover maybe). But I wasn't dripping any oil on the driveway and the bottom of the engine is clean. After looking a little more carefully I did see some oil build up on the back of the transfer case. If oil is leaking on the back of the motor while the engine is running, it would make sense that the oil would make its way to the back of the drive train. The second problem is a lack of power which may have been caused by the mechanical timing being off a tooth or two. But this (in my mind) still doesn't explain why the #1 cylinder wasn't holding pressure while I am able to wiggle the rocker arms. I talked to one of the guys at engnbldr and he said that it's a far stretch to assume that the machinist messed up the machining in the #1 cylinder that badly because the piston would wobble around too much and would come apart well before 8000 miles.

Anyways, here are some of the pics of the pistons, head and head gasket.

#1 Piston:


#2 Piston:


#3 Piston


#4 Piston:


#1 and #2 piston valves (#1 on the right)


#3 and #4 Piston valves (#3 on the right)


The headgasket
#1 and #2 piston area (#1 on the left)


#3 and #4 (#3 on the left)


With the exception of what I would think is excessive black junk on the pistons and the bottom of the head, I don't see anything wrong.

I'll get the deck of the block cleaned up and shave the top of the timing chain cover a little bit and make sure it's smooth with the top of the deck of the engine. I'll replace the head gasket and reinstall everything. I'll adjust the timing chain on the upper sprocket, replace the seal around the valve cover and give the engine some fresh fluids. Then we'll go from there unless someone wise has any input.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

SV....

You're saying "#1 cyl rocker is wobbling away",... I understand that... The problem I'm getting at is not what's 'SUPPOSED' to be going on when that rocker is loose... It's that the timing is off by a tooth or more... which means at some point, when #1 piston is up on the compression stroke........ Isn't it possible that over time, it came up and made contact at some point, EVEN A LITTLE, and maybe bent the valve??? ...........#1 Intake valve(lil on #1 Exhaust as well) on your head is the only one I see that's saturated with Carbon streaking.... NO WAY am I saying 'that's likely'... I'm asking, "Did you send these pics to Tod?".... I would. Nope, I'm not a guru, but I know that when you have 20# less in a hole, it's either the 'head' or the 'hole', period.

Also, even with that step at the timing cover/head/block corner.... I don't see any major washing of the piston, no more than any other.... So again, I wouldn't THINK that's 'causing' your compression loss... But Tod would know far better on that, no doubt It could VERY WELL be losing compression at #1 simply due to that step being there, causing a MICRO bit of seepage of compression/'reading a loss' in compression there.

I'm just a 'better safe than sorry" kinda guy that would rather be dang sure about everything before slapping it back together only to have wasted 60$ on gaskets and fluids again, .......only to have to tear it down AGAIN... Not trying to be too speculative... Just trying to throw another angle in there......

And, any good machinist could test that head for any possible seating issues.. But I understand if you don't see anything dramatic... "what's the point" perspective, too.

Best wishes, ... I'll be watching and loggin this into the 'problem' and then 'solved' category, hopefully soon, SV

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

PS> I didn't remember anyone saying so.....but LOVE the thread title! hahaha.... I cracked up first time reading it........ still chuckling even several times later, checking in! hahah.

svdude

iTrader: (3)

You bring up a good point chef. I'll take the head to a machinist who can check it out and let me know for sure. I'm not an engine guru either. I know what the FSM tells me and what I hear from other good mechanics like Ted or Tod at engnbldr or the guys at LCE performance.

What did kind of strike me as weird is that the compression is ascending as you go further back in the engine which is why the guys at engnbldr thought of the timing chain cover being a smudge higher than the deck of the block. But the fact that all of the pistons and valves on the cylinder head ALL look the same. Neither one of them looks any worse or more carbon saturated than the other.

engnbldr

>>>*Morning! Sorry I haven't been around much, but I see this site is filled with folks who know as much as I do and probably more, glad to see you all hopping in and trying to help.

I am almost 70 now and trying to keep up with running my ranch, this "retirement" stuff kind of keeps this old man busy. 350 head of Sheep and some young black Angus dropping calves, so far the wife and I have had to assist several times, that is interesting. Hard to think about Toyotas much when your arms are inside a 1200 pound Cow up to the elbows and she ain't happy with the situation.

+++

Anyway. The pic shows something isn't right there Yep, she won't go like that, plus all sorts of other problems crop up. For one, the cylinder cannot vent properly, the result is she collects heat on the exhaust side of the cylinder head, (similar to when you do not have enough ignition advance).

That creates things like "defective" head gaskets, it's tough on rings, pistons, etc. About the worst thing a person can do is run an engine in an out if tune situation. Plus yep, flat on her face around 4K and altitude does not help one bit, I would be surprised if she can put out 100 ponies running that way.

That cam timing will be correct when at TDC the top marked tooth is just left of 12 O'clock. Common mistake, the 22RE has that curved passenger side guiderail and tensioner pad, that presses the chain inward and effectively makes the distance from center to center shorter on the passenger side.

So. The actual timing marks are not opposed when correct, the top mark is slightly left of 12 O'clock as you face it. The eyes are almost drawn to that cam dowel when installing the top gear, something I know about having done the exact same thing myself way back. (Don't tell anyone..*LOL**...)

She will run there, poor power, hard to get the ignition timing right. One problem is relying on the dampner marks to find TDC, best to use the bottom gear mark. When correct, all three marks, top, bottom, and ignition zero mark should align.

Now, on that timing cover. Normally the cover being high will not fail the head gasket right away, but it sure will reduce gasket service life. At around .020" up it can bend the head enough to wipe out #1 cam journal.

I have fixed a few of those with a very sharp, very large file but it's not real easy and I have pretty good hands after 50 years as a machinist. But I am also lazy, so I would take her apart and do it right.

Best to bolt the timing cover on and then deck the block and cover as a unit, then she will fit properly.

On compression, at 5500 feet in the air, the numbers are going to be down a tad because there ain't a lot of air up there. That's part of why we like to increase the compression ratio when operation is to be at altitude. One neat trick is to aim for zero deck or as close as you can get for the piston, even if you need to shave the block a tad extra. Sticking out the top around .006" doesn't hurt any either. Nice tight quench that way and a happy cylinder.

Another thing to consider is that a longer duration cam will vent cylinder pressure, again reducing the actual cranking speed numbers. So we ignore the actual physical number unless it is awful and look for balance, best is within 5-15 lbs of each other.

Thanks for the compliment, we do try, and nice to hear that my son Tod is doing his best to help too......*EB

engnbldr

>>>*I meant longer, sorry, still on my first cup of coffee here....*EB