LOCOMOengineer

HI FOLKS, ( stock 1995 4Runner 3vze)

I'm new here and been poking around here for a few weeks and decided and stop lurking and start a thread myself.

I'd like to start by saying thank you for ALL of the awesome and sinightful posts the elders have made; as a result I'm NEARLY ready to venture on my own and tackle the task at hand!

OWK...my baby is stock with the exeption of the battle scars ive given her in overzealous adventures. So NO i dont have any suspension or body lift.

The beast is sitting at about 185k, has ALLEGEDLY had a head job ( hopefully he millededed 'em, new oil pump/timing belt/waterpump etc. For 2 years its ALWAYS had the typical slight clattery percussion that ALL my my TOYs (all 4cyls) have had - ESP under load.

in the last few months it has developed a BAD ( not missing/broken journal bad) but spooky rod knock during the first 3-5 secs during initial startup from cold. It subsides to a muffled clatter, then after she warms up a bit...and the oil loosens a bit more.. I end up with the same localized drivers side valve clatter it always had. As the engine and oil warms up, my oil pressure decays to the low end of the pressure gage. and stays there until everything cools down.

Im ASSUMING that the moderately loud clatter during start up is from the fact all the oil has leaked out around the journals on the main & rod bearings, and until the timing tensioner, cam bearings/ and evrything else charges, then it clatters like that. GIVEN THE FACT it has been overheated which required the P.O. to do a head job ( gasket & milll only it likely has had antifreeze in the oil at SOME point ( which im told would cause accelerated erosion of the bearing faces)

- I KNOW i should do a complete tear-down but im a bit broke & short on time. replacing ONLY rod/mains/thrust washers is a cop out, but its all i can do ATM. I saw that it seems the easiest way is to simply raise the engine to help the oil pan clear the crank - BRILLIANT IDEA!! Valve adjustment is AFTER this effort. BTW if the crank surfaces don't MIC to spec & reasonably round, Ill stop and have it turned ( my workplace rebuilds EMD 9, 12, & 16-645's. I THINK i can have a guy do it for free. Else Ill just BUY a frigging crank and smile I will eventually do a full tear-down and renew ALL but thats summer, and its a might bit chilly for a while yet ( not to mention Im pretty broke

- ANY COMMENTS, RIDICULE, ADVICE, PROGNOSIS, would be greatly appreciated!! THANK YOU IN ADVANCE!

~CHEERS, warren

thedrewski86

Just wondering, what oil do you run?

LOCOMOengineer

Full synth mobile 20-50, I added a quart of lucas last week, to help till I get this sorted out

thedrewski86

Dang! That's Harley oil! Maybe try some Rotella 5w40. Going 20 weight at startup could certainly create some noise. I have been running 10w40 since my 22RE rebuild with MINOR chatter and I'm thinking of going 5/40 syn in a bit. I don't know 3vze's though, it was just a thought.
I would try some simple stuff before a tear down. It IS running now right? No smoke?

LOCOMOengineer

it runs relatively smooth, no smoke, and decent power... BTW i just looked and its 1030, NOT 20-50 hehe DEHR

thedrewski86

Ooooooh, alright! 10/30 is a good oil so I don't think that would really pose a problem. I have heard using Toyota oil filters help w/ startup lubrication (because of the drain back checkvalve) but I'm no expert.
Have you popped off the valve covers to make sure your timing guides are intact?

EDIT: and mine was 10/30 as well, DERRP!!

LOCOMOengineer

i have NOT pulled the valve cover(s) my '95 V6 has a belt, and i "believe" a hydraulic tensioner-idler) - I might do that today as well simply pull the driver side valve cover to look for play/filings etc...AND I didnt think of a backflow preventor feature that would exist in ANY oil filter, I currently have an expensive K&N oil filter that came along as a combo deal with a 5Qt special. but YEAH if the filter allows oil to flow out, then it would have to fill it prior to going anywhere.

THANKS already! wheew this forum is active

thedrewski86

Right, right, I'm still thinking 22RE! You have a belt.

I currently have a K&N on mine but I'm swapping to the OEM in a bit. The K&N is convenient because of the nut on the end but it does not have the drain back check valve (you can actually see it in the Toy one). Also, I can get a Toy filter for half the $.

Have you adjusted your valves lately? I adjust mine out of habit now! Ah, Toyotas....

LOCOMOengineer

Ya. That nut face is sweet in K&N. Ill goto ployota dealer tomorrow and nab an OEM filter

LOCOMOengineer

I asked the guy at NAPA about the "back flow prevention feature" and he said that the K7N HAVE that built in ... I took another look under the skirt of my girl... and decided that 3pm on a sunday ... with dropping temperatures wasn't the best time to start my bearing swap.

ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS as to WHAT my symptoms could be ASIDE from needing to renew my main/crank bearings?? ( LOUD clatter on start up - that quiets down..followed by eventual decay of oil pressure?)

combatcarl

If your filter has internally failed, it could still be a drain back issue, only way to see if that's the case is to replace and cut the old one open. If its localized to driver's side, could it be exhaust manifold gasket?

LOCOMOengineer

well the filter is BRAND NEW, and the problem was present BEFORE my last oil change, and made NO CHANGE with the fresh oil & filter. =/ could an exhaust mani-gasket cause (whats sounds like) rod knock? hadnt even occured to me.. there is NO exhaust leak whatsoever. - SHES exhaling like a champ! The other day even stuck my head as close to the underside as I could with the ability to turn the engine on, and immediately got within a couple feet of the oil pan... its DEFINETELY SOMETHING clattering under there! the sound dissipates in about 3-5 secs, then muffles, then slowly decays after the oil is nice and loose ( about 2-3 mins) ...then after about 10-15 mi on the interstate at 65mph, the oil pressure decays to the bottom of the scale =/ ( when it was above 1/2 way to pegged for 1st 5 mins of running. I SHOULD install a triple gauge regardless of any efforts!! i don't trust 17 year old stock dummy gauges /sensors - but the fact they are changing with reasonable levels - who knows. As I said, the quiet upper end tick is still present AFTER everything is totally warmed up and reached an ambient condition. - THIS would SEEMINGLY be rectified by a proper valve adjustment. ( OR perhaps worn cam journal bearings are the entire culprit all together?!?!)

- SO CONFUSED AND COLD AND FRIGHTENED lol **quietly weeps in the corner**
- I assume you might have thought the sound was a localized exhaust leak?

thedrewski86

Hmm, get a 22RE

onmyway

sorry first post. could it be as simple as a cracked exhaust manifold. something worth
checking. i'm always surprised how awful that sounds.

LOCOMOengineer

I took a makeshift stethoscope (as Ive been taught to use countless other times on other engines to find squeaks , squeals, bad bearings, ticks, etc) and the tick thats present after the engine is warmed up seems most pronounced over #4. today at lunch with someone to start it for me, Ill try the "scope" trick directly on the side of the oil pan or on the flange around the pan. AFTER work ill try it again DIRECTLY on the exhaust manifold to satiate the thought of a cracked manifold.

I never discount an idea even when IM SURE something ISNT the way i think it is. Ive been divorced 2 times LOL -- SO I CAN ADMIT WHEN IM WRONG =D !!! lolololol

I would rather the journal bearings were NOT worn out with the possibility of even having to renew the crank. - I tend to try NOT overlook the obvious when I can; once I pulled an engine from a SAAB 900 turbo that - after a full head job I did (IN MY FRONT YARD lolol), - engine swinging from a cherry-picker a freind looked at a bolt on the front (which faces the fire-wall) of the engine and said...." what is that?!?! - turns out its was a "spring loaded graduated orifice poppet style oil pressure regulator" that was stuck OPEN - causing no oil pressure... I had been to 3 SAAB dealerships, numerous forums, and NO ONE thought to say, " did you check the oil pressure regulator located adjacent to the oil pump"

abecedarian

My 22re rattles and knocks at startup (have 260K+ miles) if I use 5wXX or 10wXX oil, but doesn't rattle at all if I use 20w50. I live in SoCal where it rarely gets below freezing, and oft exceeds 80-90F, so I've no issues running 20w50 all the time.
In the instances where I've been in colder climates, I blend oils- 1-2 quarts 5w30 and the balance 20w50, and once even 1/2 qt Dexron III ATF and the rest 20w50 (don't ask why ). That's worked fine for me over the past few years.

But if you've narrowed down a loose rod bearing as a culprit... not really sure how you could do that with a mocked up stethoscope... it's time to Plastigauge them all. That will set your mind at ease, and should help with at least part of your oil pressure issues, but it's normal for oil pressure to drop after the oil warms up, so take that how you will.

LOCOMOengineer

VERY interesting indeed... Never even occured to me to make a special blend for my particular engine's " point in life"... I just always used GOOD appropriate ( or so i thought) oil for the season and figured I was ahead of the pack of drones that actually PAY someone to change their oil, let alone do all the work on their chariot themselves.

The 10-30 full synth for winter and 20-50 full synth for summer is about as far as Ive taken it. I should likely try switching to 20-50 AND add 20-40% of LUCAS and see what happens. or at least add another 20% of lucas to the oil I JUST changed with less than 500 miles ago. HECK, i know a guy that had a worn out big block that he put 50% 90W into just to get it quieted enough to sell to some jerk that he hated LOL

PLASTIGAGE = yes yes yes!! On saturday - I will start as early as possible and jack up the engine, slip the pan off and do some plasti-nspection I already have all the bottom end consumables to do a quicky bearing change SO LONG as the crank hasnt been turned or is out of spec. btw what is the acceptable "out of round" tolerance for the crank? .002?

If I find NOTHING on the bottom end, ill change out all the bearings anyway and start looking at the top end. If iwasnt so thick headed (and broke ) id just get a full teardown kit and do the deed all proper-like

IM HOPING the bad clackety goes away and leaves me with the orginal tick in the valve-train ... WHICH I know will be a PITA to fix... but make me smile and dream of the day when I GET TO work on my truck because I want to, not HAVE to because I simply cannot afford ( OR TRUST) to pay someone.

COULD worn cam bearings / worn cam cause a bunch of clatter? seems possible, but TBH Ive never even had the valve cover off of this specimen and like to use exray vision, and the force to diagnose prior to tearing into ANYTHING.

thanks for the responses so far guys!!

abecedarian

keep in mind that if you do plastigauge it, and find things out of spec, you'll need to mic the journals so you know what size bearings to get.
And even then, you're not out of the woods: the little end will be worn too.

LOCOMOengineer

so ESSENTIALLY... under a worn journal condition its likely sounds reasonable to assume and commit on the onset to doing the crank & cam bearings, shim the buckets and maybe just maybe ill end up turning the crank & or cam. - and turning ( I realize) means oversize bearings


:wabbit2: i should plan this whole thing better. perhaps even PURCHASE an entire rebuild kit... and just get jiggy with the thing. Ive got access to a cherry-picker & engine rack. I MIGHT just be better off investing a deeper commitment... lil more money and do the damned thing the way a real pro would do it, long block mounted nice and accessible, flippable on a rack and just PLAN to ride my bike to work and tell the landlord what im planning because this thing aint likely to happen in a few hours LOL.

Moustache

Check your valve clearance on the exhaust valves. Its one thing suggested over and over to people doing head gaskets on 3VZ's so obviously its an issue. I can imagine if they were out of spec, you would hear a great deal of noise through the plastic valve covers on the 3VZ.

I'm no expert, just an idea and something that can be checked before you pull the motor out completely.