norville

Hey all, I've searched and I just want to make sure I didn;t miss anything before I have to ask the wife to use her side of the garage..

I have a 1994 toyota 22re 5speed reg, cab. And I think The starter just died. It happened once last week after I drove around and stopped . When I turned the key there was nothing but a single click from the passengers side foot well.. SO I bump started it and drove it for the last week or so with absolutely no issues.. I thought maybe I had a dead spot on the starter.. Then this morning I go the same thing.. Bumped it and tried it again, nothing....

I hear a single click but I can't find it easily, maybe behind the pas side foot well computer?? Things I've done to confirm this..

Checkd the battery 12v
I put on my jumper box on the batttery,, nope
banged it with a hammer no luck.
swapped the fuel relay with starter relay in the fuse box.. nothing.
held in the clutch bypass button ect..

This is where I'm confused...

Pulled the spade connector down by starter and reset.. should there be 12v there when starting?? I didn't read anything.. but I will recheck.. I did extend this wire to the battery with the key in the on and start positions . I just got a little spark but no start..

I tried using my trigger starter it didn;t work either.

So did I miss anything?


thanks
bob

Sturmcrow

The loud click you hear is probably the starter solenoid (assuming it is louder than the relays, which I presume are what you swapped, not solenoids). It is possible that the electrical contacts inside the solenoid are worn out.

Check this out, as it is described quite well.

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...er-fix-216099/

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

Have you ruled out a bad ground .

what sort of voltage do you get from positive battery terminal to to the engine block??

What kind of shape are the battery terminals and cables in?

12 volts is a little low for battery voltage

with the key in the start position you should have @ battery voltage.

your in trouble if you need to ask the wife too use her side of the garage!!!

norville

Yes Relay's not solenoids.. I was typing in a hurry... yes, I already got the look. Sorry the battery voltage was 13.4.. I have not ruled out a bad ground but I'll look into that. Terminals and cables have been replace and look fairly new along with the battery (less than 3yrs old). Terms are clean. Also the starter relay is like new.

That no start click noise is definitely coming from the pillar.

Now the trouble starts, I was rolling the truck down the hill to bump start it and I missed it 3 times, she just didn;t want to start. So out of habit I turned the key and it rolled over. IT chugged and spit and died. And I couldn't get it going.. I swapped back the relays in the fuse block and it finally caught I cleared it out and drove it into the garage.. I'm not saying it was a bad relay, I'm thinking I may have flooded a leaky cylinder from cycling the key so many times.. but it's running now. I'm going to change the plugs and oil since I'm in the dog house anyway. What should r could I look at.

I'm thinking it's solenoid or the starter locking up... I'm going to pull it and clean it up. the battery directly to the red solenoid wire should have turned the starter..

Sturmcrow

I am unsure what you mean by the "pillar." Usually that would be the structural supports between the body and the roof.

I have a feeling that the starter and fuel relays are not identical, though I do not know.

Are you saying that you basically jumpered across the solenoid and put power directly into the starter motor? I agree that it should spin then. However, if you just ran power to the normal 12v input, I do not think it would.

If you google something like "yotatech f116 starter" you will come up with a plethora of threads where people discuss how to fix the starter. Putting f116 in there will limit your results to this forum. Sadly, the yotatech search function is not as good as plain ole Google.

norville

Thanks again, I'll keep that search profile in min..

What I'm calling a "pillar" is the metal support right behind the passenger side kick panel. I can feel it in the metal when it "clicks"

I was able the replicate the issue by disconnecting the little red wire attached to the starter solenoid.

I have 13 and change volts at the battery and after making a good extension wire I was reading 12.45 at the solenoid.. this contradicts my first post. but I'm not sure if I had a good connection tot he "red" solenoid wire..

In my truck the relays for the "EFI" and the "starter" are the same.

Yes, I connected the starter solenoid wire directly the the positive battery terminal. I would expect that to turn the starter no matter what...??

Sorry for the mess of a post.. on a positive note I changed the plugs and it's running like never before..the old plugs were terrible.

I did not pull the starter for lack of time. I'm sure I'll get bit by this again.

norville

Just a quick update.. It's still starting fine, I've been parking in locations that I can push start if needed. This I'm sure will get me. I hate not finding the problem. It's like the spider you swatted at and missed.. ya know it's just waiting for to let your guard down..

I'm fairly certain it's not the starter. It's strong, no delay or dragging. I'm going to keep any eye on the battery. Maybe there was not enough voltage to actuate the relay??? Or maybe there's a loose wire somewhere?

thanks again for all the input.
bob

norville

One more point I thought of.. could it be the ignition switch? I know if I don;t remove the key a certain way the ignition thinks the key is still in the ignition.. I then have to put the key back in and it stops..

norville

I've been using "yotatech f116 starter" with the hint from Sturmcrow, and it's given me a lot of ideas. Thanks again.

I'm leaning towards the Starter relay mod. Once I find the relay. I'll have to look at the firewall down by the passengers side kick panel.. unless it's up behind the computer at kick panel..

Sturmcrow

Glad I could help

I agree that if the clicking sound is coming from behind the kick panel instead of in the engine bay, it might not be the starter solenoid contacts. Still, I think I will change mine out sometime this year. It sounds like you can cut new contacts out of some copper pipe fittings, if you have some skill with hammer and hacksaw.

norville

Well it happened today at lunch. I was not able to troubleshoot it as I needed to get back to work. Thankfully someone helped my push start it..

I'm still at a loss , it's working fine now but I cannot live like this. I need to figure this out. To the best of my knowledge on my 1994 a low current 12v signal is to a a starter relay. Then the relay sends 12v to the starter solenoid that is attached to the starter.. I hear a pronounced "click" when I turn the key and it is not coming from the starter. It's coming from the cab kick panel are near the fire wall. I'm assuming it's the "starter relay" trying to send 12v to the starter solenoid. Is this logic right?

If 12v was getting to the solenoid but the starter is not turning, then I would say it's the starter solenoid acting up. I think I read someone bypassed this by adding a "ford" starter solenoid to the inner wheel well.

Could the "starter relay" be bad? can it "click" but not send the signal?

any other thoughts?

thanks
bob

Sturmcrow

When you say that the click is coming from the kickpanel, have you verified that from outside of the cab? In other words, if you are standing with the hood open looking at the starter and have someone else turn the key, does it still sound like its coming from inside?

The reason I ask is because your problem still sounds like a starter solenoid to me. Just in case you do not know, the solenoid actually has two major functions. The first is to push the gear out on the starter so that in engages with the flywheel teeth. The second is to act as a huge relay that allows power to flow directly from the battery to the starter coils.

The click you hear is probably the solenoid doing its first function, pushing the gear out. However, these things are very well-known to stop performing the second function. The copper contacts on the inside wear out over the course of 20 years and current stops flowing.

If you had any other problem, it would not be so intermittent. The fact that this comes and goes points to it being bad contacts inside.

If you have the skills to pull the starter, its a $10 fix. Follow the link I posted before for directions. You can get the contacts from here http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...OnlineOrdering

norville

Yes, the "click" is coming from inside the cab.

I pulled the starter and it's was obvious to me that this may have been an issue for a whiles. The motor was rebuilt 60K miles ago.. the body has 180K. All the bolts had anti-seize on them and the solinoid wire looks to have been played with..

I popped to top off the solenoid and examined the contacts. I first noticed the solenoid side lug was worn crooked one edge was higher than the other(uneven wear) this I can guess was from a PO over tightening the battery cable. The starter side lug only had wear at the points . That seemed odd to me. I would have expected both copped lugs to be worn the same. Even if one was off. I straightened the lugs and cleaned them up and also buffed the "ring" just to make it smooth. Everything else seemed fine.

I guess the only theory I can think of is if one of the lugs was not making contact with the solenoid. I understand that why you would hear the "click" near the motor but I not hearing that although I'm doubting myself more ... I'm not truly convinced it's the starter solenoid. Is there another reason that the solenoid would not get the 12V???

bob

norville

crappy sell phone pic

Cyberman

Hard to tell from that pic as to how worn/thin those contacts are. They look like they should be replaced, and while you still have it in your hand, you might as well. Contacts are pretty cheap.

norville

ya, sorry about the pics quality. The motor side is like new, with little to almost no wear, just at the points or tips. The battery side is worn uneven from new to 1/2 thickness, if you were to look at it from the side. I'd almost say this was rebuilt or changed when the motor was rebuilt.

Sturmcrow

I read somewhere that what you are describing is pretty common. I think it was on the 4crawler site. He said that battery side wears down more, so that you can almost get away with changing just that side.

It makes sense that if one side is worn down appreciably more than the other that you will not get a good connection. The high side will keep the ring from going down far enough to engage the low side.

Supposedly you can get away with making a new contact out of a copper fitting. You would probably want to do both sides, so that the thickness is the same and they wear at about the same rate. Personally, I would only do that if I did not have the time to order and wait for new contacts.

norville

Another update, I've ordered new copper contact lugs for my starter. I've also found the source of my click. This happens when my truck fails to start and also when I pull the small 12v source wire to my starter solenoid. The red wire right next to the starter.. It is some sort of relay up next to the heater. It's not the heater relay I can see it and the fuses.

SO what is it?? can it be a source of my problem or just a result of the solenoid making bad contact.. The truck has been reliable starting so I cannot verify 12 v going to the starter solenoid.. It's easy to get to now that I know where it is..

Cyberman

I can't read the writing on that module. But based on where it is, isn't that the circuit opening relay?

Sturmcrow

That would be my guess too.

If that is your click, which makes sense, I worry that something is more wrong with your starter solenoid. Normally they make a very pronounced "clunk" "click" or whatnot. If the solenoid is not clicking when you turn the key, the problem could be elsewhere. You may want to price out how much a starter relay is and consider swapping the old one out.

Can someone back me up on this? I have not yet had my own starting problems, so do not know if the toyota starter solenoids are as loud as other ones I have had. I do know that the toyota starter is a slightly different design than many starters.