Overheating... & more
12-26-2011, 11:16 AM
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Overheating... & more
Howdy folks, need some help. I read & searched on here and everywhere else (for weeks) until I'm exhausted.
1990 pickup, 2x4, 22rei, manual 5 speed... 238K miles.
In the beginning...
Timing chain guide broke, replaced it with one with metal backing.
While I had it apart I noticed the radiator and water system had red gunk, kind rust colored but oily feeling... looked kinda like real soft red paste.
Checked the oil... clean.
Checked compression around 160 on all 4.
Put everything back together with a new "orielly's" water pump & a used oem timing chain cover. (Mine was eaten by the loose chain.)
After flushing the coolant system out with the water hose, heater core lines radiator upper & lower hoses pipes on sides of engine... etc, until there was no signs of red gunk. I ran two bottles of radiator flush along with tap water for 250 miles.
Drained the system & flushed several time to get the "flush" out the filled with tap and ran for 250 miles. Installed new thermostat. Drained & flushed & filled with distilled water and antifreeze. (Burped the poopie out of it.)
Set the timing by letting it idle until warm then turned the distributor until idle picked up then back if off until smooth. Power is good / normal... etc.
400 miles later it starts to over heat. I check, low on coolant. No signs of a leak anywhere, no signs of water in exhaust, oil is clean compression is still good, flow in top of radiator shows flow when the thermostat opens but stops after just a couple of seconds, thought I may have RTV boogers clogging something up...
Went through the water hose flush / back flush again... saw some small flakes, tiny bits of RTV but nothing that looked like it would stop water flow. Hose flush indicated no blockage.
Topped off (with tap)... 125 miles... same.
Topped off (with tap)... 125 miles... same.
Topped off (with tap)... 125 miles... same.
Drove second truck while this one sat, for six months.
Thought maybe the O'Riellys water pump may have issuse with being a six vane, got an 8 vane... Also noticed the spark plugs had large chunks of white corrosion, almost like timing burn but big flakes looking chunks of stuff, replaced. Filled with tap, burped, drove... same.
Water getting red again, oil clean no signs of a leak, compression good, no water in exhaust.
Info that may or may not be relevant;
Cat is empty.
AC makes no change.
Heater makes no change.
Low speed seems to prolong overheat.
Without the thermostat the pump cavitates like crazy. Radiator will look like a super creamy foamy cappuccino.
Heck of a first post ehh.
I'd introduce myself with a name and pic and stuff... but I'm hiding in shame until I solve this riddle!
1990 pickup, 2x4, 22rei, manual 5 speed... 238K miles.
In the beginning...
Timing chain guide broke, replaced it with one with metal backing.
While I had it apart I noticed the radiator and water system had red gunk, kind rust colored but oily feeling... looked kinda like real soft red paste.
Checked the oil... clean.
Checked compression around 160 on all 4.
Put everything back together with a new "orielly's" water pump & a used oem timing chain cover. (Mine was eaten by the loose chain.)
After flushing the coolant system out with the water hose, heater core lines radiator upper & lower hoses pipes on sides of engine... etc, until there was no signs of red gunk. I ran two bottles of radiator flush along with tap water for 250 miles.
Drained the system & flushed several time to get the "flush" out the filled with tap and ran for 250 miles. Installed new thermostat. Drained & flushed & filled with distilled water and antifreeze. (Burped the poopie out of it.)
Set the timing by letting it idle until warm then turned the distributor until idle picked up then back if off until smooth. Power is good / normal... etc.
400 miles later it starts to over heat. I check, low on coolant. No signs of a leak anywhere, no signs of water in exhaust, oil is clean compression is still good, flow in top of radiator shows flow when the thermostat opens but stops after just a couple of seconds, thought I may have RTV boogers clogging something up...
Went through the water hose flush / back flush again... saw some small flakes, tiny bits of RTV but nothing that looked like it would stop water flow. Hose flush indicated no blockage.
Topped off (with tap)... 125 miles... same.
Topped off (with tap)... 125 miles... same.
Topped off (with tap)... 125 miles... same.
Drove second truck while this one sat, for six months.
Thought maybe the O'Riellys water pump may have issuse with being a six vane, got an 8 vane... Also noticed the spark plugs had large chunks of white corrosion, almost like timing burn but big flakes looking chunks of stuff, replaced. Filled with tap, burped, drove... same.
Water getting red again, oil clean no signs of a leak, compression good, no water in exhaust.
Info that may or may not be relevant;
Cat is empty.
AC makes no change.
Heater makes no change.
Low speed seems to prolong overheat.
Without the thermostat the pump cavitates like crazy. Radiator will look like a super creamy foamy cappuccino.
Heck of a first post ehh.
I'd introduce myself with a name and pic and stuff... but I'm hiding in shame until I solve this riddle!
Last edited by cntryby; 12-26-2011 at 11:57 AM.
12-26-2011, 11:54 AM
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Today, bypassed the heater core thinking I may have some vapor lock if not burped enough... no dice.
Any of you guru's have any ideas?
Any of you guru's have any ideas?
Last edited by cntryby; 12-26-2011 at 02:00 PM.
12-28-2011, 07:13 PM
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(Disclaimer: I don't know what I'm talking about 
)
I think the original red gunk could have just been the original Toyota red coolant. It tends to hide in places and get flushed out over long distances. Unless one of your other fluids is red, that'd be my guess.
But the contents of the radiator has to be going somewhere - if they're not going into the crankcase oil, not leaking into the cab through the heater core, and not leaking directly off the engine or hoses, there's really only one place for it to escape: through the cylinders and out the exhaust. A slow leak in a head gasket would be hard to spot in the exhaust.
(There is an issue with radiators with integrated tranny coolers that can cause coolant and tranny fluid to intermix - look for "strawberry milkshake" on this site - but since you have a manual trans that would not seem to apply.)
Maybe you should pull the plugs and look for coolant fouling? I think you would see white "ashy" deposits.
)I think the original red gunk could have just been the original Toyota red coolant. It tends to hide in places and get flushed out over long distances. Unless one of your other fluids is red, that'd be my guess.
But the contents of the radiator has to be going somewhere - if they're not going into the crankcase oil, not leaking into the cab through the heater core, and not leaking directly off the engine or hoses, there's really only one place for it to escape: through the cylinders and out the exhaust. A slow leak in a head gasket would be hard to spot in the exhaust.
(There is an issue with radiators with integrated tranny coolers that can cause coolant and tranny fluid to intermix - look for "strawberry milkshake" on this site - but since you have a manual trans that would not seem to apply.)
Maybe you should pull the plugs and look for coolant fouling? I think you would see white "ashy" deposits.
12-28-2011, 08:33 PM
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That red crap tends to plug up radiators. It's really bad when when someone has used dex-cool extended life antifreeze. I's good that you have flushed the ˟˟˟˟ out of it,but that doesn't usually get that hard packed red crap out of the tubes in the radiator. When that red mud (or stop leak) gets in the tubes,it can be really hard to get out. When I rod a radiator out at work that kind of stuff gets so hard sometimes I can't even get the rod out tool through the tubes sometimes. And if I do,sometimes the tubes end up too weak to survive the rebuild process and end up leaking in the end and the rebuild ends up being junk. If you have a radiator shop nearby with a flow machine,pull the radiator out and have them do a flow check on it. If it's a typical 4cyl rad, then it should flow at least 15gpm+ typically. Of course there are a lot of variables in core design and flow machines so don't take that to heart. A simple flow test at home might tell you something too. Take the rad out,put a garden hose in the upper neck,and hold you're hand over the bottom neck to plug it off until the water comes out of the fill neck. Move your hand off the lower neck and let it drain out while looking in the fill neck. It should drain out fairly quick and you should not see any water standing in any tubes that you can see. If it's getting hot at idle,I would start looking into the fan clutch,and if you have a busted up/missing fan shroud too.
12-29-2011, 10:46 AM
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ummm... set the timing how? turned the distributor...
rule is you warm the engine up then insert the jumper in the diagnostic port. if the idle changes, you check and set the timing. if the idle doesn't change, you make sure the jumper is actually jumpering the connections and if it's jumpering, the tps is keeping you from adjusting the timing so you then check and adjust the tps.
rule is you warm the engine up then insert the jumper in the diagnostic port. if the idle changes, you check and set the timing. if the idle doesn't change, you make sure the jumper is actually jumpering the connections and if it's jumpering, the tps is keeping you from adjusting the timing so you then check and adjust the tps.
12-29-2011, 10:50 AM
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That red crap tends to plug up radiators. It's really bad when when someone has used dex-cool extended life antifreeze. I's good that you have flushed the ˟˟˟˟ out of it,but that doesn't usually get that hard packed red crap out of the tubes in the radiator. When that red mud (or stop leak) gets in the tubes,it can be really hard to get out. When I rod a radiator out at work that kind of stuff gets so hard sometimes I can't even get the rod out tool through the tubes sometimes. And if I do,sometimes the tubes end up too weak to survive the rebuild process and end up leaking in the end and the rebuild ends up being junk. If you have a radiator shop nearby with a flow machine,pull the radiator out and have them do a flow check on it. If it's a typical 4cyl rad, then it should flow at least 15gpm+ typically. Of course there are a lot of variables in core design and flow machines so don't take that to heart. A simple flow test at home might tell you something too. Take the rad out,put a garden hose in the upper neck,and hold you're hand over the bottom neck to plug it off until the water comes out of the fill neck. Move your hand off the lower neck and let it drain out while looking in the fill neck. It should drain out fairly quick and you should not see any water standing in any tubes that you can see. If it's getting hot at idle,I would start looking into the fan clutch,and if you have a busted up/missing fan shroud too.
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12-29-2011, 07:05 PM
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It can idle for an hour and not get hot. but if I get out on the highway for a little while it gets hot.
In cooler weather it doesn't get hot until I come to a stop after being out on the highway.
Of course, If I stay on the highway to long it will always get hot.
One thing that keeps eat'n at my feeble brain... why the heck is there massive cavitation with no T-stat in the circuit?
I've taken a water hose to the radiator and it seems to be coming out as fast as I can put it in, in either direction.
How bad are the tubes on the sides of the engine at rusting out or producing & letting go of scale? I had the T under the intake get a pin hole a couple of years ago right in the seam of the T.
O'Riellys lifetime rad...$115
O'Riellys lifetime heater core... $100
I just can't make myself spend that kinda money for a "maybe".
The timing thing has been bugging me due to the highway speeds being when I see the most overheat situations... & the white plugs... but it's not consistent with the lean, advanced timing problems I've seen in the past. (other vehicles.) i.e. The white plugs are big flakey looking, not burned with with eroded electrode.
Perhaps a combination of problems?
Maybe I created more problems chasing the original problem?
In cooler weather it doesn't get hot until I come to a stop after being out on the highway.
Of course, If I stay on the highway to long it will always get hot.
One thing that keeps eat'n at my feeble brain... why the heck is there massive cavitation with no T-stat in the circuit?
I've taken a water hose to the radiator and it seems to be coming out as fast as I can put it in, in either direction.
How bad are the tubes on the sides of the engine at rusting out or producing & letting go of scale? I had the T under the intake get a pin hole a couple of years ago right in the seam of the T.
O'Riellys lifetime rad...$115
O'Riellys lifetime heater core... $100
I just can't make myself spend that kinda money for a "maybe".
The timing thing has been bugging me due to the highway speeds being when I see the most overheat situations... & the white plugs... but it's not consistent with the lean, advanced timing problems I've seen in the past. (other vehicles.) i.e. The white plugs are big flakey looking, not burned with with eroded electrode.
Perhaps a combination of problems?
Maybe I created more problems chasing the original problem?
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