New Engine Installed - Won't Start (22RE)
05-07-2008, 09:54 AM
#41
Registered User
Okay....I thought so. And, now I see what you're saying. Thanks.
05-07-2008, 10:37 AM
#42
Registered User
Thread Starter
Great input, as usual. Thank you. I will do this procedure. Quick question- since I will obviously have to have the valve cover off to check the rockers, wouldn't I be guaranteed that the engine is at tdc, compression if the cam sprocket notch is straight up 12 oclock?
Thanks,
Kyle
Thanks,
Kyle
I'm starting to think the best thing would be to pull and re-index the distributor.
Here's a recap of how:
0) key off, disconnect battery - terminal or coil wire to distributor
1) Turn crank to 0 / TDC.
2) Loosen and adjust the distributor so that it is near the middle of its adjustment range.
3) Check that #1 intake and exhaust valve rocker arms are not putting any pressure on the valves. If they are, rotate the crank 1 full turn. If you don't want to do that, you can go to steps 4 and 5, but do not move the rotor yet- if the rotor is +- 180 degrees from your mark, turn the crank 360 degrees then proceed with adjusting the rotor.
4) With the distributor cap on, make a mark on the distributor that corresponds with which terminal on the cap has the #1 spark plug wire connected.
5) Pull the cap off and look at the rotor- does the center of the rotor point directly at the mark? If not, remove the distributor and rotate the rotor/shaft until it nearly does, reinsert the distributor and recheck if the rotor aligns with the mark. Repeat if it's not, moving the rotor left or right, as necessary, one tooth until it is as close as you can get it. Alternately, if you can adjust the distributor within its normal adjustment range to get the rotor and mark to line up, do that. Just make sure you still have some room to adjust the distributor in both directions.
6) Replace the cap, valve cover, everything you may have removed.
7) Insert the unofficial 'Toyota timing test tool' into the diagnostic port, and prep your timing light for operation.
8) Start your truck and check your timing.
Here's a recap of how:
0) key off, disconnect battery - terminal or coil wire to distributor
1) Turn crank to 0 / TDC.
2) Loosen and adjust the distributor so that it is near the middle of its adjustment range.
3) Check that #1 intake and exhaust valve rocker arms are not putting any pressure on the valves. If they are, rotate the crank 1 full turn. If you don't want to do that, you can go to steps 4 and 5, but do not move the rotor yet- if the rotor is +- 180 degrees from your mark, turn the crank 360 degrees then proceed with adjusting the rotor.
4) With the distributor cap on, make a mark on the distributor that corresponds with which terminal on the cap has the #1 spark plug wire connected.
5) Pull the cap off and look at the rotor- does the center of the rotor point directly at the mark? If not, remove the distributor and rotate the rotor/shaft until it nearly does, reinsert the distributor and recheck if the rotor aligns with the mark. Repeat if it's not, moving the rotor left or right, as necessary, one tooth until it is as close as you can get it. Alternately, if you can adjust the distributor within its normal adjustment range to get the rotor and mark to line up, do that. Just make sure you still have some room to adjust the distributor in both directions.
6) Replace the cap, valve cover, everything you may have removed.
7) Insert the unofficial 'Toyota timing test tool' into the diagnostic port, and prep your timing light for operation.
8) Start your truck and check your timing.
05-07-2008, 10:49 AM
#43
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I don't recommend using the cam markings to set TDC for a couple of reasons- the chain can stretch and there is no oil pressure to the chain adjuster/tensioner so there will be slop in the chain and due to this can cause the crank to be off a degree or more. Also, since the ignition timing is set off of crankshaft position, it's best to use the crank marks to set up everything. You'll be in the ballpark though.
You may notice that I did write up something you could do if you don't want to take the valve cover off in step 3.
It basically involves identifying the #1 wire position on the cap and making sure the rotor points that general direction. If it doesn't, rotate the engine 360 and it should. But either way the crank has to be at TDC. IF it's not, you will have to pull the valve cover to make sure #1 valves are closed when the crank is at 0 then go from there.
You may notice that I did write up something you could do if you don't want to take the valve cover off in step 3.
It basically involves identifying the #1 wire position on the cap and making sure the rotor points that general direction. If it doesn't, rotate the engine 360 and it should. But either way the crank has to be at TDC. IF it's not, you will have to pull the valve cover to make sure #1 valves are closed when the crank is at 0 then go from there.
Last edited by abecedarian; 05-07-2008 at 10:55 AM.
05-07-2008, 03:28 PM
#44
Registered User
Thread Starter
I'm sorry if this is beating a dead horse, but- is the timing mark in the crank pulley supposed to align with the keyhole I'm the crankpulley, wherefore at TDC the timing mark on the crank pulley is at 12 oclock? Because on my crank pulley this is NOT the case.
05-07-2008, 04:00 PM
#45
Registered User
Yep. The keyway on the crank is set at TDC. Then, the keyhole in the pulley lines up with that, of course. No big deal, though. Just make you a new notch/mark on the pulley to distinguish it from the present one.
05-07-2008, 05:34 PM
#46
Registered User
Thread Starter
So I just spent 80 bucks on a new crank pulley that was just as messed up as my old one? That was a complete waste of money.
Anyway, moving on here...
Set the engine to what I felt was TDC. Determining whether the tension was off the valves was easier said than done IMO. I was able to feel just an inkling of play in the rocker arm and called that good, since I had the cam in the right way. I pulled the distributor and put it back in per directions (as I had made a mark with white out on the distributor where spark plug 1 was.
See pictures:
Cam:
Position of rotor before I repositioned:
Position of rotor after I repositioned:
Picture of the crank notch while supposedly at TDC:
So I bolted everything you see above back together and started the truck. It didn't run well. So I twisted the distributor as far as I could to the left and it seemed to run better. So I pulled the distributor out and turned the rotor one click to the right. Truck continued to run better and again I twisted the distributor to the left and it really idled better. SO once again, pulled the rotor out and turned it one more tick to the right. At this point the truck ran about the same, and as I twisted the distributor to the left it began to run badly and "load up". Too far to the left here and the truck dies. The unfortunate thing, is that despite all this, the truck runs the best (and I use this term losely, as the truck never runs well, the engine shakesa lot more than it should) when the crank notch is between the 2 and 4 oclock areas on the crank pulley.
Now about the truck not running well - I can't get it to rev over about 1500-1800 rpm. If I hold down the accelerator the engine pulses. Rev, idle, rev, idle, rev, idle... and so on. Any idea as to what this could be?
Headache continues...
I did get a quick youtube video I will post once loaded here in this post. I should also note that after I reset the ECU by unplugging the battery, I had no codes, and even after the truck running for about 20 minutes while I fiddled with the timing off and on, still no codes...
So - Here's the youtube video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nYTxCMxXrs
Sorry for the sorry camera work - From the bottom I am trying to show the timing mark looking down from the driver's side front. You can make out the mark eventually - that's the timing mark. From the top, I'm simply trying to show that the timing mark is not even visible, much less near the correct position.
I went upstairs and dug around and fortunately found a picture of my crank pulley (new) setting next to the old one. In both cases you will see that the keyhole does not line up with the timing notch. Are we certain that it should?
Anyway, moving on here...
Set the engine to what I felt was TDC. Determining whether the tension was off the valves was easier said than done IMO. I was able to feel just an inkling of play in the rocker arm and called that good, since I had the cam in the right way. I pulled the distributor and put it back in per directions (as I had made a mark with white out on the distributor where spark plug 1 was.
See pictures:
Cam:
Position of rotor before I repositioned:
Position of rotor after I repositioned:
Picture of the crank notch while supposedly at TDC:
So I bolted everything you see above back together and started the truck. It didn't run well. So I twisted the distributor as far as I could to the left and it seemed to run better. So I pulled the distributor out and turned the rotor one click to the right. Truck continued to run better and again I twisted the distributor to the left and it really idled better. SO once again, pulled the rotor out and turned it one more tick to the right. At this point the truck ran about the same, and as I twisted the distributor to the left it began to run badly and "load up". Too far to the left here and the truck dies. The unfortunate thing, is that despite all this, the truck runs the best (and I use this term losely, as the truck never runs well, the engine shakesa lot more than it should) when the crank notch is between the 2 and 4 oclock areas on the crank pulley.
Now about the truck not running well - I can't get it to rev over about 1500-1800 rpm. If I hold down the accelerator the engine pulses. Rev, idle, rev, idle, rev, idle... and so on. Any idea as to what this could be?
Headache continues...
I did get a quick youtube video I will post once loaded here in this post. I should also note that after I reset the ECU by unplugging the battery, I had no codes, and even after the truck running for about 20 minutes while I fiddled with the timing off and on, still no codes...
So - Here's the youtube video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nYTxCMxXrs
Sorry for the sorry camera work - From the bottom I am trying to show the timing mark looking down from the driver's side front. You can make out the mark eventually - that's the timing mark. From the top, I'm simply trying to show that the timing mark is not even visible, much less near the correct position.
I went upstairs and dug around and fortunately found a picture of my crank pulley (new) setting next to the old one. In both cases you will see that the keyhole does not line up with the timing notch. Are we certain that it should?
Last edited by My99; 05-07-2008 at 05:58 PM.
05-07-2008, 05:58 PM
#47
Registered User
That white mark is the notch? And, that is where the notch is when the crank keyway is TDC? That's is f'in weird. The chances of two pulleys being off! Something's amiss here, and I'm not sure what.
But, let me say this......if your cam is at 12 o'clock while the keyway is at 12o'clock with the #1 piston at TDC on the compression stroke....and, and....the rotor is on spark term. #1, then you're issue is somewhere other than the crank/cam/rotor alignment.
Listen....if you don't have this figured out by Sat., I get off work at 2:30pm and can swing by.
But, let me say this......if your cam is at 12 o'clock while the keyway is at 12o'clock with the #1 piston at TDC on the compression stroke....and, and....the rotor is on spark term. #1, then you're issue is somewhere other than the crank/cam/rotor alignment.
Listen....if you don't have this figured out by Sat., I get off work at 2:30pm and can swing by.
Last edited by thook; 05-07-2008 at 10:23 PM.
05-07-2008, 06:06 PM
#48
Registered User
Thread Starter
Thanks for the offer Matthew. I may take you up on that. I'll gladly pay for your gas. Yes, that white mark is the keyhole. I put a dab of white-out on the notch because at first I was thinking that I just wasn't able to see the notch with the timing light. That turned out not to be the case. As you can see in the above picture I later added, the notch is nowhere near the keyhole.
I do know for SURE that I had the engine timed correctly when I put the chain on, with the crank and cam lined up correctly.
So now to the next problem - assuming I have the timing set correctly, what would make it run rough and not be able to rev above 1500-1800 and pulse like it does when I try to force it to?
Thanks,
Kyle
I do know for SURE that I had the engine timed correctly when I put the chain on, with the crank and cam lined up correctly.
So now to the next problem - assuming I have the timing set correctly, what would make it run rough and not be able to rev above 1500-1800 and pulse like it does when I try to force it to?
Thanks,
Kyle
05-07-2008, 07:23 PM
#49
Registered User
Thanks for the offer Matthew. I may take you up on that. I'll gladly pay for your gas. Yes, that white mark is the keyhole. I put a dab of white-out on the notch because at first I was thinking that I just wasn't able to see the notch with the timing light. That turned out not to be the case. As you can see in the above picture I later added, the notch is nowhere near the keyhole.
I don't know how to explain this discrepency. The keyway on the crankshaft is TDC. I went even went out when the rain broke and looked at my motor. The timing marker has the "0" mark right at TDC and lines up with the keyway. Given those two facts, the notch on the pulley must line up with the keyway so that you can tell when where the crank position is. Odd, odd, odd, odd, odd!
Since I'm perplexed, when the sun comes out tomorrow and after I'm done hauling hay, I'm going to take the PS/A/C pulley off of my truck and compare. I'll get back with you on that.
And, Kyle.....there is no need whatsoever for you to pay me for gas. I work right over in the Evelyn Hills shopping center. You know.....where Chucky Cheese is!
'Cept I don't work at Chucky Cheese....lol! I'll just need to know how to get to your place from there, okay?
05-07-2008, 07:57 PM
#50
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Valves opening at the wrong time limiting the amount of air getting in or exhaust leaving would cause that problem, kinda like a mechanical rev-limiter.
There's definitely something amiss here.
If you want to double check the TDC, there is a tool you can get that goes into the sparkplug hole and you turn the engine until it contacts the tool. You then mark the crankshaft pulley and turn it the other way until it contacts the tool again, marking the pulley again. TDC is halfway from one mark to the other.
There's definitely something amiss here.
If you want to double check the TDC, there is a tool you can get that goes into the sparkplug hole and you turn the engine until it contacts the tool. You then mark the crankshaft pulley and turn it the other way until it contacts the tool again, marking the pulley again. TDC is halfway from one mark to the other.
05-07-2008, 10:17 PM
#51
Registered User
Abe and Kyle
The notch is definitely amiss. It's definitely supposed to line up with the keyway. Think about it. That's the only reference visual reference you have for the crank position once the accessory pulleys are on.Otherwise, you can't see the keyway and the keyway is what signifies the crank position.
The other thing.....which somehow I missed....is how you're setting the distributor in relation to crank position/TDC. Are you aware that the distributor is to be installed with the crank position at 5*btdc?
Read here....
http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b.../5distribu.pdf
I'm wondering if you're setting the distributor in with the crank at 0*TDC. Of course, how would you know with the timing notch being off, right?
The notch is definitely amiss. It's definitely supposed to line up with the keyway. Think about it. That's the only reference visual reference you have for the crank position once the accessory pulleys are on.Otherwise, you can't see the keyway and the keyway is what signifies the crank position.
The other thing.....which somehow I missed....is how you're setting the distributor in relation to crank position/TDC. Are you aware that the distributor is to be installed with the crank position at 5*btdc?
Read here....
http://personal.utulsa.edu/~nathan-b.../5distribu.pdf
I'm wondering if you're setting the distributor in with the crank at 0*TDC. Of course, how would you know with the timing notch being off, right?
05-07-2008, 10:27 PM
#52
Registered User
After re-rereading the thread carefully, I do believe what I've mentioned above is your only two problems. Make these changes and see where that gets you, Kyle. If nothing's improved, I'll come by Sat. Hell....I'd like to, anyway, to make your acquaintence.....if that's cool with you. Then, you can see my rusty piece of Japanese metal and tiger striped seat covers....
05-07-2008, 10:37 PM
#53
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thook-
For any reliable setting, you need to have a reference point for an ignition event to occur and be measured. This is why I said to set the distributor and rotor to result in a spark event occuring as close to 0 degrees as possible. Given also that I stated to set the distributor to the center of its adjustment range, this allows, once a repeatable baseline of 0 degrees is acheived, for the distributor to be rotated with finer resolution than the gear on the end of the distributor shaft allows, until the desired timing setting is reached.
It's not that I'm aiming for 0 degrees, but rather trying to get the distributor shaft as physically close to optimum as possible and allowing fine tuning of the distributor to acheive the desired result.
Was that last sentence redundant? Must be the transition from rum to whisky.
For any reliable setting, you need to have a reference point for an ignition event to occur and be measured. This is why I said to set the distributor and rotor to result in a spark event occuring as close to 0 degrees as possible. Given also that I stated to set the distributor to the center of its adjustment range, this allows, once a repeatable baseline of 0 degrees is acheived, for the distributor to be rotated with finer resolution than the gear on the end of the distributor shaft allows, until the desired timing setting is reached.
It's not that I'm aiming for 0 degrees, but rather trying to get the distributor shaft as physically close to optimum as possible and allowing fine tuning of the distributor to acheive the desired result.
Was that last sentence redundant? Must be the transition from rum to whisky.
Last edited by abecedarian; 05-07-2008 at 10:38 PM.
05-07-2008, 11:27 PM
#54
Registered User
Okay.....I think I understood that. Maybe I need some rum....
Yeah, I know you need a reference point. That's why he needs the notch/mark in the right place so the true crank position is known and can be gauged against the timing marker accurately.
But, if the distributor is installed in the head with the crank positioned at 0*TDC, will that not result in the rotor being off and the timing consquently retarded by 5* no matter what the timing marker and notch alignment reflect when using the timing light? That is, if you compare what you're suggesting to what the FSM recommends......setting the distributor in the head with the crank at 5*. It's a 5* difference, there, and the cam/distributor drive gear will be in a different position. It seems to me that the rotor will also be sparking the #1 terminal at a different/wrong time, as a result.
Yeah, I know you need a reference point. That's why he needs the notch/mark in the right place so the true crank position is known and can be gauged against the timing marker accurately.
But, if the distributor is installed in the head with the crank positioned at 0*TDC, will that not result in the rotor being off and the timing consquently retarded by 5* no matter what the timing marker and notch alignment reflect when using the timing light? That is, if you compare what you're suggesting to what the FSM recommends......setting the distributor in the head with the crank at 5*. It's a 5* difference, there, and the cam/distributor drive gear will be in a different position. It seems to me that the rotor will also be sparking the #1 terminal at a different/wrong time, as a result.
Last edited by thook; 05-07-2008 at 11:35 PM.
05-08-2008, 12:23 AM
#56
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nope- no soft top. tis a factory hard shell on there in me avatar.
On the other hand, the distributor itself can only be installed within the range of its adjusting slot and bolt. Where the rotor sits inside the distributor is another matter altogether though. The distributor housing itself only has about 30 or so degrees of finesse while the rotor/distributor shaft can be positioned anywhere its gear will let it land.
If you also consider that the spark plug wires can each land in any one of 4 different terminals on the distributor cap... the rotor could be anywhere and the #1 spark plug wire could be on any one of the 4 terminals on the cap.
that makes me think- that no matter what else, wherever the rotor ends up at, that cap terminal must be #1 and then clockwise must be #3, #4 and #2, right?
Have we been chasing our tails all this time trying to get the timing right when the wires weren't right?
On the other hand, the distributor itself can only be installed within the range of its adjusting slot and bolt. Where the rotor sits inside the distributor is another matter altogether though. The distributor housing itself only has about 30 or so degrees of finesse while the rotor/distributor shaft can be positioned anywhere its gear will let it land.
If you also consider that the spark plug wires can each land in any one of 4 different terminals on the distributor cap... the rotor could be anywhere and the #1 spark plug wire could be on any one of the 4 terminals on the cap.
that makes me think- that no matter what else, wherever the rotor ends up at, that cap terminal must be #1 and then clockwise must be #3, #4 and #2, right?
Have we been chasing our tails all this time trying to get the timing right when the wires weren't right?
Last edited by abecedarian; 05-08-2008 at 12:28 AM.
05-08-2008, 04:46 AM
#57
Registered User
Thread Starter
well guys I did label the spark plug wires when I removed them from the plugs and I didnt remove the wires from the distributor cap at all, so unless you see something obviously wrong, I think those are correct.
Matthew- as stated if I get the rotor stabbed in at TDD I hve more than enough room to rotate 5 degrees in either direction. Remember 1 cam revolution = 2 crank revolutions.
I really think I have the timing set as close to accurate as possible with the distributor even though the keyhole on the crank pulley is not aligned with the timing notch. Grrrrr.
So do you think that simply adjusting the valves (a valve job was done on the head) would help clear up my rough-running issues?
Anyone have a good reference page for this? I need to look at my PMs as I know Matthew has given me some good direction on this process in the past.
Matthew- as stated if I get the rotor stabbed in at TDD I hve more than enough room to rotate 5 degrees in either direction. Remember 1 cam revolution = 2 crank revolutions.
I really think I have the timing set as close to accurate as possible with the distributor even though the keyhole on the crank pulley is not aligned with the timing notch. Grrrrr.
So do you think that simply adjusting the valves (a valve job was done on the head) would help clear up my rough-running issues?
Anyone have a good reference page for this? I need to look at my PMs as I know Matthew has given me some good direction on this process in the past.
05-08-2008, 09:53 AM
#58
Registered User
Hey Kyle,
Yeah.....I was just taking a stab at the timing thing. I've never really understood how all of that worked...distributor placement, etc...just knew to follow the directions...lol!
However, I talked with Don Clark for a bit this morning and he gave me the whole run down on that. It's not nearly as complicated as I was thinking. Isn't that how it is, though? Blankey-blank looks complicated because you don't know....lol.
About the valves....did you not adjust them when you got the head back and the rocker arm installed?
Yeah.....I was just taking a stab at the timing thing. I've never really understood how all of that worked...distributor placement, etc...just knew to follow the directions...lol!
However, I talked with Don Clark for a bit this morning and he gave me the whole run down on that. It's not nearly as complicated as I was thinking. Isn't that how it is, though? Blankey-blank looks complicated because you don't know....lol.
About the valves....did you not adjust them when you got the head back and the rocker arm installed?
05-08-2008, 10:15 AM
#59
Registered User
Thread Starter
Hey Kyle,
Yeah.....I was just taking a stab at the timing thing. I've never really understood how all of that worked...distributor placement, etc...just knew to follow the directions...lol!
However, I talked with Don Clark for a bit this morning and he gave me the whole run down on that. It's not nearly as complicated as I was thinking. Isn't that how it is, though? Blankey-blank looks complicated because you don't know....lol.
About the valves....did you not adjust them when you got the head back and the rocker arm installed?
Yeah.....I was just taking a stab at the timing thing. I've never really understood how all of that worked...distributor placement, etc...just knew to follow the directions...lol!
However, I talked with Don Clark for a bit this morning and he gave me the whole run down on that. It's not nearly as complicated as I was thinking. Isn't that how it is, though? Blankey-blank looks complicated because you don't know....lol.
About the valves....did you not adjust them when you got the head back and the rocker arm installed?
05-08-2008, 10:23 AM
#60
Registered User
Oh yeah! Whenever the rocker arm, valves, head, etc. have all been disassembled, you have to set everything back upon reassembly before you run it. So, adjust the valves, then. Fingers crossed that's the problem, eh?
