Flame Thrower 3.0 injector review
07-24-2013, 08:10 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Flame Thrower 3.0 injector review
I was one of the lucky test subjects for the 3vze grey top 4 hole injector.
the rig is my 95 4runner, I did a stock rebuild when I bought it with 148k on the clock. Pistons, heads, bearings...you name it. After a year the heads came off and installed a pair of Crower regrind cams and have since cut off the muffler. it sits at 160k as of now.
As most of you know the 3.0 with an auto behind it is a dog, doesn't hold OD at the slightest incline, even with the cams and free flowing exoughst it was a chore to keep up with the club of jeeps going up to Big Bear.
The injectors were well packaged, box with peanuts and then a bubble wrap bag. Just don't tip the box up and spill the peanuts like I did. Even came with a new intake gasket.
Adapter harness, new orings, and that new injector cleaner smell.
And so the intake came off. Don't forget to label you hoses, I make a diagram and tape it to the hood....don't ask about that lesson.
Old injectors, it's worth noting that I have ran tons of seafoam through this truck, even still yuck..but I've seen much worse.
Fuel rails come off easily but your gonna leak some gas. a few rags can handle it, DON"T LOSE YOUR COPPER GASKETS. Murphy loves to get you on this, 8 pm it's hard to get new ones. The new injectors go right in as long as the old orings are removed as all 6 of mine stayed in the manafold. the adapter harness plus right in, I taped mine as insurence against brittle plugs. Normally assembly starts here, i was due to check my valve lash from the cam install. Quick adjustment(ha) and the assembly started the next morning.
Assembled from valve covers off in about an hr. You can just see my hose cheat sheet on the hood along with my compressor filling my tires. I'm 5'6" and that extra 4 in of fender I get from taking the tires down is worth it. I jumped my fuel pump to check for leaks(remember the copper gaskets..yea i learned the hard way on the original rebuild..) and then hosed off the remaining gas from bleeding at the cold start injector.
Fired right up with only about 30 seconds to clear the fuel rail of the remaining pockets of air.
I've left the AFM and the IG timing were they were but i did pull the efi fuse to clear the fuel trims and stimulate faster adjustment.
First impressions: I no longer have a kick in power at 2800, instead its just a smooth climb though the rpms. most likely a sign that the bottom end is now pulling instead of just the top. Only got to drive it around the block so I'll have to get back on the long term driving works out.
If anyone was wondering, my homemade valve adjusting tool
the rig is my 95 4runner, I did a stock rebuild when I bought it with 148k on the clock. Pistons, heads, bearings...you name it. After a year the heads came off and installed a pair of Crower regrind cams and have since cut off the muffler. it sits at 160k as of now.
As most of you know the 3.0 with an auto behind it is a dog, doesn't hold OD at the slightest incline, even with the cams and free flowing exoughst it was a chore to keep up with the club of jeeps going up to Big Bear.
The injectors were well packaged, box with peanuts and then a bubble wrap bag. Just don't tip the box up and spill the peanuts like I did. Even came with a new intake gasket.
Adapter harness, new orings, and that new injector cleaner smell.
And so the intake came off. Don't forget to label you hoses, I make a diagram and tape it to the hood....don't ask about that lesson.
Old injectors, it's worth noting that I have ran tons of seafoam through this truck, even still yuck..but I've seen much worse.
Fuel rails come off easily but your gonna leak some gas. a few rags can handle it, DON"T LOSE YOUR COPPER GASKETS. Murphy loves to get you on this, 8 pm it's hard to get new ones. The new injectors go right in as long as the old orings are removed as all 6 of mine stayed in the manafold. the adapter harness plus right in, I taped mine as insurence against brittle plugs. Normally assembly starts here, i was due to check my valve lash from the cam install. Quick adjustment(ha) and the assembly started the next morning.
Assembled from valve covers off in about an hr. You can just see my hose cheat sheet on the hood along with my compressor filling my tires. I'm 5'6" and that extra 4 in of fender I get from taking the tires down is worth it. I jumped my fuel pump to check for leaks(remember the copper gaskets..yea i learned the hard way on the original rebuild..) and then hosed off the remaining gas from bleeding at the cold start injector.
Fired right up with only about 30 seconds to clear the fuel rail of the remaining pockets of air.
I've left the AFM and the IG timing were they were but i did pull the efi fuse to clear the fuel trims and stimulate faster adjustment.
First impressions: I no longer have a kick in power at 2800, instead its just a smooth climb though the rpms. most likely a sign that the bottom end is now pulling instead of just the top. Only got to drive it around the block so I'll have to get back on the long term driving works out.
If anyone was wondering, my homemade valve adjusting tool
Last edited by Inu; 07-24-2013 at 08:21 PM. Reason: Photos baby
07-31-2013, 07:52 PM
#3
Registered User
Thread Starter
Havn't put enough miles for mpg readings. It's been smelling pretty rich so i decided to check the ox sensor voltage and the vf fuel trim. As my nose told me the ecu was maxing the trims trying to lean it out. I had previously set my afm 4 clicks lean to clean up cruise after the cam swap. No i set it 10 lean to see if the trim will level out. Hoping to get acces to a stand alone a/f reader in the next few weeks if i can make my way to needles.
08-07-2013, 10:45 PM
#4
Registered User
Thread Starter
Ended at 14 lean, the trims have settled and im mostly happy with them at cruise. Before the injectors i was getting 9 around town and on a 30m trip though the next town. Its definetly improved no hard numbers byt it appears around 13 with ac on. Also using the trucks af sensor(of dubious accuracy) i believe my high rev leanout is gone. Need to confirm with quality unit.
All around I think it holds od better, improve cruise mpg, and the added fuel flow seems to have solved most of my lean at top. My runner is somewhat modified and a stock rig will probly not need the afm messed with. I will be recomending these to other 3.0 owners that complain about the mpgs.
All around I think it holds od better, improve cruise mpg, and the added fuel flow seems to have solved most of my lean at top. My runner is somewhat modified and a stock rig will probly not need the afm messed with. I will be recomending these to other 3.0 owners that complain about the mpgs.
10-25-2013, 03:17 PM
#5
Registered User
Thread Starter
Follow up:
Finally got my hands on the reader plus put a long trip on the highway, Victorville to Needles Ca and back for those who know, that hill sucks....
was definetly an improvement over the stock injectors for the hills.
now for the goodies, im at 14 clicks lean, with cams free flowing cat back, and isr. cold warmup(70 outside) started at 14 and settled to 15-15.5 at idle warm. general cruise driving around would stay 13-14.5. dead stop is 13 till 2800 or and 12-12.5 untill 4500 at which point it starts creeping to to 10.5 at shift.
With the stock injectors it would go 13-13.8 from 3200 ish on so at least I won't burn it up. would like to clean the top up but the midrange is where it needs to be. thinking it might be choking on the stock afm but untill i get a supra one to try I wont know for shure.
i still recommend the stock rate injectors for stock engines but the oversized injectors where a good fit for my needs.
side note I think the drop in K&N filters are a bad investment on these trucks, way to dirty way to quick and they don't clean well on the side of the road......
Finally got my hands on the reader plus put a long trip on the highway, Victorville to Needles Ca and back for those who know, that hill sucks....
was definetly an improvement over the stock injectors for the hills.
now for the goodies, im at 14 clicks lean, with cams free flowing cat back, and isr. cold warmup(70 outside) started at 14 and settled to 15-15.5 at idle warm. general cruise driving around would stay 13-14.5. dead stop is 13 till 2800 or and 12-12.5 untill 4500 at which point it starts creeping to to 10.5 at shift.
With the stock injectors it would go 13-13.8 from 3200 ish on so at least I won't burn it up. would like to clean the top up but the midrange is where it needs to be. thinking it might be choking on the stock afm but untill i get a supra one to try I wont know for shure.
i still recommend the stock rate injectors for stock engines but the oversized injectors where a good fit for my needs.
side note I think the drop in K&N filters are a bad investment on these trucks, way to dirty way to quick and they don't clean well on the side of the road......
10-25-2013, 07:14 PM
#6
Registered User
Thread Starter
http://pinoutsguide.com/CarElectroni...c_pinout.shtml
http://www.scirocco.org/tech/misc/afgauge/af.html
These 2 pages are how i figured out how to read the factory trims and o2. The first is supra based but is accurate enough for our purposes. All credit to site owners, i suggest saving the pages for future lookup.
All you really need is a volt meter and long leads. Some patience
http://www.scirocco.org/tech/misc/afgauge/af.html
These 2 pages are how i figured out how to read the factory trims and o2. The first is supra based but is accurate enough for our purposes. All credit to site owners, i suggest saving the pages for future lookup.
All you really need is a volt meter and long leads. Some patience
10-25-2013, 09:52 PM
#7
Registered User
Keep us posted on the Supra AFM swap and these injectors when you do it.
Curious if the FT Bosch gray are noticeably superior there over the FT Denso orange w/ that swap done. I'm thinking either is fine and orange is definitely easier (since same flow so no AFM adjustment needed). And that these engines tend to run rich anyways so stock fuel system seems to be sufficient... From my current thinking, only a forced induction scenario would require the gray injectors, but that's just an assumption.
Curious if the FT Bosch gray are noticeably superior there over the FT Denso orange w/ that swap done. I'm thinking either is fine and orange is definitely easier (since same flow so no AFM adjustment needed). And that these engines tend to run rich anyways so stock fuel system seems to be sufficient... From my current thinking, only a forced induction scenario would require the gray injectors, but that's just an assumption.
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10-25-2013, 10:32 PM
#8
Registered User
Thread Starter
It could be some time, I dont get out to the yards much and my better half has put me on notice about the porch and boat not being fixed this summer...such is life. It is nice to know im not gonna burn a piston anymore.
10-27-2013, 06:20 PM
#9
Registered User
Thread Starter
http://www.well.com/user/mosk/Vfsignal.htm
One more link. This one clears up some vf trim confusion. Scroll past the o2 stuff as its gor 0-5v sensors.
One more link. This one clears up some vf trim confusion. Scroll past the o2 stuff as its gor 0-5v sensors.
10-28-2013, 01:09 AM
#10
Registered User
Follow up:
Finally got my hands on the reader plus put a long trip on the highway, Victorville to Needles Ca and back for those who know, that hill sucks....
was definetly an improvement over the stock injectors for the hills.
now for the goodies, im at 14 clicks lean, with cams free flowing cat back, and isr. cold warmup(70 outside) started at 14 and settled to 15-15.5 at idle warm. general cruise driving around would stay 13-14.5. dead stop is 13 till 2800 or and 12-12.5 untill 4500 at which point it starts creeping to to 10.5 at shift.
With the stock injectors it would go 13-13.8 from 3200 ish on so at least I won't burn it up. would like to clean the top up but the midrange is where it needs to be. thinking it might be choking on the stock afm but untill i get a supra one to try I wont know for shure.
i still recommend the stock rate injectors for stock engines but the oversized injectors where a good fit for my needs.
side note I think the drop in K&N filters are a bad investment on these trucks, way to dirty way to quick and they don't clean well on the side of the road......
Finally got my hands on the reader plus put a long trip on the highway, Victorville to Needles Ca and back for those who know, that hill sucks....
was definetly an improvement over the stock injectors for the hills.
now for the goodies, im at 14 clicks lean, with cams free flowing cat back, and isr. cold warmup(70 outside) started at 14 and settled to 15-15.5 at idle warm. general cruise driving around would stay 13-14.5. dead stop is 13 till 2800 or and 12-12.5 untill 4500 at which point it starts creeping to to 10.5 at shift.
With the stock injectors it would go 13-13.8 from 3200 ish on so at least I won't burn it up. would like to clean the top up but the midrange is where it needs to be. thinking it might be choking on the stock afm but untill i get a supra one to try I wont know for shure.
i still recommend the stock rate injectors for stock engines but the oversized injectors where a good fit for my needs.
side note I think the drop in K&N filters are a bad investment on these trucks, way to dirty way to quick and they don't clean well on the side of the road......
Granted you've set your AFM pretty lean, but the fact that it seems to keep appropriate air fuel ratios to ~3k RPMs and then drops pretty quickly above that (close to Wide Open throttle scenarios where the AFM flapper shouldn't make much difference) shows the restriction on the stock intake.
And just to ensure no one burns up their pistons:
My understanding on stoich/ideal air fuel mix ratio is ~14.7 to 1 (14.7 air to 1 part fuel) for 100% gasoline, 93 octane/premium fuel. Then 14.3 to 14.4 for 89 octane, mid range fuel. And then 87 octane, standard grade w/ 10% ethanol being in the 14.1 to 1 range.
The higher the first number, the more air, the leaner you're running your engine and likely to burn a piston. Too rich and you're likely to burn your cat so...
You look a little too lean if you're running anything other premium.
*But these are just rough guidelines -- every fuel blend is different for optimal stoich.
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...ing-100-octane
http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...ich-value.html
The point of stoich is to ensure you burn all the fuel you have in the engine, which requires the amount of oxygen specified in that ratio. Running at stoich allows your engine to achieve maximum fuel efficiency.
But then optimum power requires running a little richer:
Best Power
We mentioned the stoichiometric air-fuel ratio (14.7:1) that is the ideal ratio for lowest emissions, but this isn't the best ratio for power. It used to be that 12.5:1 was considered the best power ratio, but with improved combustion chambers and hotter ignition systems, the ideal now is around 12.8:1 to 13.2:1. This is roughly 13 parts of air to one part fuel. It's what combustion engineers call an excess fuel ratio and is intended to ensure that all the air is used to support the combustion process. This is because air is the oxidizer in combustion. Too many enthusiasts think that adding additional fuel beyond the ideal to create a richer mixture will make more power. This doesn't work because you can only burn the fuel when you have enough air to support combustion. That's why engines make more power when you add a supercharger or nitrous--you're shoving more air in the cylinder so that you can burn more fuel. Regardless of the amount of air in the cylinder, it still requires a given ratio of fuel to burn. Add too much extra fuel, and power will decrease.
These simple graphs illustrate why the narrow-band oxygen sensor (A) is only accurate arou
When it comes to fuel mileage and increased fuel efficiency, this ratio changes again. All new cars run at 14.7:1 air-fuel ratio at part throttle because this is the lowest emission point. But depending upon the engine, it's possible to run an engine at leaner mixtures like 16:1 or more at part throttle to gain mileage. The difficulty with this is that driveability and throttle response suffers at these ratios. Engine response is lazy and stumbles are commonplace. Each engine will be different, but there is fuel mileage to be gained by fine-tuning your carburetor. Don't be intimidated by these lean mixtures at part throttle. You won't burn the engine up since it is making very little horsepower at part throttle cruise--often less than 30 hp.
We mentioned the stoichiometric air-fuel ratio (14.7:1) that is the ideal ratio for lowest emissions, but this isn't the best ratio for power. It used to be that 12.5:1 was considered the best power ratio, but with improved combustion chambers and hotter ignition systems, the ideal now is around 12.8:1 to 13.2:1. This is roughly 13 parts of air to one part fuel. It's what combustion engineers call an excess fuel ratio and is intended to ensure that all the air is used to support the combustion process. This is because air is the oxidizer in combustion. Too many enthusiasts think that adding additional fuel beyond the ideal to create a richer mixture will make more power. This doesn't work because you can only burn the fuel when you have enough air to support combustion. That's why engines make more power when you add a supercharger or nitrous--you're shoving more air in the cylinder so that you can burn more fuel. Regardless of the amount of air in the cylinder, it still requires a given ratio of fuel to burn. Add too much extra fuel, and power will decrease.
These simple graphs illustrate why the narrow-band oxygen sensor (A) is only accurate arou
When it comes to fuel mileage and increased fuel efficiency, this ratio changes again. All new cars run at 14.7:1 air-fuel ratio at part throttle because this is the lowest emission point. But depending upon the engine, it's possible to run an engine at leaner mixtures like 16:1 or more at part throttle to gain mileage. The difficulty with this is that driveability and throttle response suffers at these ratios. Engine response is lazy and stumbles are commonplace. Each engine will be different, but there is fuel mileage to be gained by fine-tuning your carburetor. Don't be intimidated by these lean mixtures at part throttle. You won't burn the engine up since it is making very little horsepower at part throttle cruise--often less than 30 hp.
Nashman has good writeup on using a wideband to tune the Supra AFM: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116...n-take-183688/
He saw restrictions in stock at WOT too:
no sorry the 5m one is smaller then the 7mge
well did a nice test run ideal perfect roughly about 14.7 to 14.9 withc is good
now for the best part after 3000 ish rpm you get in the rang of 15 then sweeps to 12 and at max 11 in na car umm this can be fixed
aka she can be cleaned up alot
now i gonna try to swap in the 7mge and see what happens to my ratio's
stay tuned
well did a nice test run ideal perfect roughly about 14.7 to 14.9 withc is good
now for the best part after 3000 ish rpm you get in the rang of 15 then sweeps to 12 and at max 11 in na car umm this can be fixed
aka she can be cleaned up alot
now i gonna try to swap in the 7mge and see what happens to my ratio's
stay tuned
Last edited by RSR; 10-28-2013 at 01:23 AM.
10-28-2013, 02:37 PM
#12
Registered User
Continuing on my last post -- I think tuning the afm so that
1. wide open throttle is between 13-14 (closer to 13 the better, as if wide open, you need power usually) -- done w/ the internal AFM spring as this will have the biggest effect during WOT's open loop -- and ensure max power
2. adjusting AFM idle adjustment screw (w/ supra AFM) or throttle idle adjustment screw (w/ stock AFM) to get near to, but not exceeding, 14.1 to 14.7 at idle depending on the fuel you typically run (idle also being an open loop instance)
3. if you get the open loop setups right, then the ECM should be able to properly adjust fuel ratios if in closed loop -- when the ECM adjusts fuel ratios based upon multiple sensor, including and especially narrowband 02 sensor, inputs.
This is what I'm thinking at least -- trying to figure things out as I go...
I do plan to install a wideband sensor and run some stock readings early next year before installing the supra AFM and figuring out which injectors I need... Debating doing my crossover delete at same time I do the wideband 02, primarily so that I don't have to pay to install a wideband bung twice, and it's currently at the top of my engine reliability mod list...
1. wide open throttle is between 13-14 (closer to 13 the better, as if wide open, you need power usually) -- done w/ the internal AFM spring as this will have the biggest effect during WOT's open loop -- and ensure max power
2. adjusting AFM idle adjustment screw (w/ supra AFM) or throttle idle adjustment screw (w/ stock AFM) to get near to, but not exceeding, 14.1 to 14.7 at idle depending on the fuel you typically run (idle also being an open loop instance)
3. if you get the open loop setups right, then the ECM should be able to properly adjust fuel ratios if in closed loop -- when the ECM adjusts fuel ratios based upon multiple sensor, including and especially narrowband 02 sensor, inputs.
This is what I'm thinking at least -- trying to figure things out as I go...
I do plan to install a wideband sensor and run some stock readings early next year before installing the supra AFM and figuring out which injectors I need... Debating doing my crossover delete at same time I do the wideband 02, primarily so that I don't have to pay to install a wideband bung twice, and it's currently at the top of my engine reliability mod list...
Last edited by RSR; 10-28-2013 at 02:40 PM.
10-28-2013, 05:58 PM
#13
Registered User
Thread Starter
Peak power is between 12.5-12.8 depending on the engine. Rotarys excluded, i know they act diffrent. 14.7 is the theoretical point for complete cumbustion. Power drops of rapidly as you go past 12.8 and the risk of piston damage goes up as well. Under light loads you can go pretty lean though. Ive heard some of the new cars cruise at 17 to 1. i do think the afm is choking the engine though. Really the longest ive had my truck at 5k was a dune climb in low 2nd, i felt bad for the cat after that. A piggy back would fix that issue. Its all in the fun.
02-20-2014, 04:35 PM
#15
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Thread Starter
Sad to say not much to update. I went 3 more clicks lean which is 17 leaner then stock and sealed it up. It drives nice but it still is to rich at the top on extended rpm runs. Smog is coming up in jun so Ill definey post those up.
02-20-2014, 06:29 PM
#16
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I have the greys which are suppose to be the larger and so far things are good other then the injectors clicking through the fuel rails (No insolator between.
I am up 7 clicks tighter and the Idle mix screw open 1.75 turns, I am always keeping an eye on the O2 gauge to watch the pattern.
Right now it just told me to check throttle body for reasons why the idle is holding to high to long, Sure enough the butterfly isn't dropping back to the set screw.
Will be checking if the spring isn't pulling hard enough or just dirty.
I am still trying to find a cheap 7M AFM.
BTW, You will be wasting money on installing a wideband unless your plan is to megasquirt or wire in some sort of OBD II ECU.
I am up 7 clicks tighter and the Idle mix screw open 1.75 turns, I am always keeping an eye on the O2 gauge to watch the pattern.
Right now it just told me to check throttle body for reasons why the idle is holding to high to long, Sure enough the butterfly isn't dropping back to the set screw.
Will be checking if the spring isn't pulling hard enough or just dirty.
I am still trying to find a cheap 7M AFM.
BTW, You will be wasting money on installing a wideband unless your plan is to megasquirt or wire in some sort of OBD II ECU.
06-02-2014, 10:06 AM
#17
Registered User
Thread Starter
Just a quick update, It did pass smog about the same as it used to. also I am retuning my afm to get it more even through the whole rev range but I wont post untill Ive got it close enough to not affect the trims out of range.
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