Cold start knock
Oct 26, 2009 | 11:26 PM
#1
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From: North Dakota
Cold start knock
Ok when its 30 or below and I start my 4Runner I get a dry sounding knock for about 2 seconds.This is only after it sits all night.Ive noticed after initial cold knock the motor is quiet idling,hood up and my face right there closely listening to it.When I drive it the motor makes a constant sticking valve tick like sound.Motor has 233K on it,doesnt use or leak oil.Anybody have this same scenario?
Oct 26, 2009 | 11:27 PM
#2
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From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Could be a number of things such as:
-Piston slap
-Timing chain bouncing around until the oil pressure builds enough so that the tensioner does it's job.
-Valve clatter until oil gets to the top of the motor.
-Etc.
-Piston slap
-Timing chain bouncing around until the oil pressure builds enough so that the tensioner does it's job.
-Valve clatter until oil gets to the top of the motor.
-Etc.
Last edited by turboboost; Oct 26, 2009 at 11:49 PM.
Oct 27, 2009 | 12:02 AM
#3
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From: North Dakota
I guess Im hoping its not the sound of money I dont have to fix it.Thats my concern,if it doesnt blow up then noise is something I can live with.I have good acceleration/power,but I keep RPMS low as possible and drive normal speeds.
Oct 27, 2009 | 04:00 AM
#5
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From: NW Ark on wooded ten acres...Ozarks at large!
I'm guessing 22re.
A bit of knock on a high mileage 22re in the cold is nothing to worry about. It's pretty normal. It only means there is some wear in the piston cylinders and on the bearings. The pistons quiet as soon as the oil begins circulating. However, a lighter weight oil for the cold weather might be a good idea.........depending on what you're already using.
The ticking is most likely the valves. (On the V6, it seems to be typically the injectors. They're so noisy on those things) Anyway, again, normal for the 22re. Well, to a degree, I suppose. When's the last time the valves were adjusted?
Overall, if you have good compression, no knocking under load, no oil burning, and no excessive oil in the PCV, there's no need to worry.
A bit of knock on a high mileage 22re in the cold is nothing to worry about. It's pretty normal. It only means there is some wear in the piston cylinders and on the bearings. The pistons quiet as soon as the oil begins circulating. However, a lighter weight oil for the cold weather might be a good idea.........depending on what you're already using.
The ticking is most likely the valves. (On the V6, it seems to be typically the injectors. They're so noisy on those things) Anyway, again, normal for the 22re. Well, to a degree, I suppose. When's the last time the valves were adjusted?
Overall, if you have good compression, no knocking under load, no oil burning, and no excessive oil in the PCV, there's no need to worry.
Last edited by thook; Oct 27, 2009 at 04:03 AM.
Oct 27, 2009 | 05:54 AM
#6
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From: Northeast Pennsylvania
GNARLYX
i totally want you to keep tabs on my rebuild......stopped right now but will be moving forward soon.
someone mentioned about the tensioner / oil pressure theory......mine would always do as described in the original post, until the day it didn't go away and turned my oil into latte'.....so that's why i was leaning towards that theory.
BUT, i did not see that this noise is in a 22r engine....no engine listed yet as far as i see.
i totally want you to keep tabs on my rebuild......stopped right now but will be moving forward soon.
someone mentioned about the tensioner / oil pressure theory......mine would always do as described in the original post, until the day it didn't go away and turned my oil into latte'.....so that's why i was leaning towards that theory.
BUT, i did not see that this noise is in a 22r engine....no engine listed yet as far as i see.
Oct 27, 2009 | 08:57 AM
#7
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From: North Dakota
Thanks for the insight guys,its a V6.MATT90V6SR5,sorry about that figured u guys would catch that,lol.Im using Mobile One high mileage 10W-30.As far as start up goes I always let it warm up until choke releases(about 3 to 5 mins)before moving because motor is so old.
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Oct 29, 2009 | 01:36 AM
#8
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From: NW Ark on wooded ten acres...Ozarks at large!
Well... knocking, ticking, and other noises are certainly not "normal", but obviously in a high mileage engine you are probably going to hear some because of wear. What you are hearing is most likely piston slap. Piston slap has a very distinct "rattle" at initial startup and usually only lasts a few seconds. It's more pronounced at very low ambients temps. If you haven't already, switch to full synthetic motor oil, and use a low viscosity like 5-30. When you first start from a overnight, just try to keep the RPMs very low (idle) for the first 10 seconds. If you switch to full synthetic, let us know if you hear any change.
Edit: You might even consider 0-20 if the ambient temps stay very very low for extended periods.
Edit2: My 1985 22R at 228K miles had some piston slap at cold starts when the temp was around 32 degrees. My Camry did it once or twice at cold starts after sitting in the garage overnight, when our temps were around freezing here is sunny AZ. My Toyota Tundra also made a "ticking" noise when cold starting at below 40 degrees. When I checked with my Toyota dealer, he said it's not uncommon, but I still didn't like to hear it.
Note: on 22s, the fairly common "ticking" sound from the rocker cover are rockers, not valves.
gNARLS.
Edit: You might even consider 0-20 if the ambient temps stay very very low for extended periods.
Edit2: My 1985 22R at 228K miles had some piston slap at cold starts when the temp was around 32 degrees. My Camry did it once or twice at cold starts after sitting in the garage overnight, when our temps were around freezing here is sunny AZ. My Toyota Tundra also made a "ticking" noise when cold starting at below 40 degrees. When I checked with my Toyota dealer, he said it's not uncommon, but I still didn't like to hear it.
Note: on 22s, the fairly common "ticking" sound from the rocker cover are rockers, not valves.
gNARLS.
I only say "normal" and nothing to worry about because during my 22re rebuild the valve lash, cylinder walls, pistons rings, bearings were all still well within spec despite the same knocking and ticking as the original poster describes. But, you're right.......I wouldn't say normal for a new or rebuilt motor.......a well rebuilt motor, that is.
Technically what you're adjusting as for the ticking is the valve lash. Technically how it works, I'll let you or google explain. I'm burned out on being technical.
Anyway, that's all. Cheerio....
Last edited by thook; Oct 29, 2009 at 02:10 AM.
Oct 29, 2009 | 02:49 AM
#9
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From: NW Ark on wooded ten acres...Ozarks at large!
Okay, I'll let Ted do some explaining.........
So, on a quick search you'll find adjusting the valves to tighter than spec can help quiet things down, but sometimes that's not enough. A synthetic oil....even lighter weight.....can improve oil circulation to the valvetrain (particularly in cold weather) and help minimize this wear. I went so far as to install a remote oil filter (aside from the spin on) that dumped the oil through the oil cap and directly on top of the valvetrain. I even put new adjuster studs on. Helped considerably. But, as you see there are many factors. Less than 200k on a relatively well maintained motor, you shouldn't see that much wear, though. So, maybe some adjuster studs and an adjustment will be all you need.
>>>*The rocker arm assembly on these engines has several places that can cause noise. The obvious is the pad, note that often we will see a small groove develop on the inner side of the pad. This is caused by the lobe shape at peak lift. If not excessive, the pad can simply be refaced and the arm returned to service.
The end of the adjuster screws move back and forth across the valve tip and over time an hourglass shape will develop. Then attempting to adjust the lash relocates that shape and we then have noisy operation. Plus we can see fractures develop in the end of the screw from loading, if allowed to continue we see damage to the valve tippet.
One overlooked point is the threads in the arm, over many thousands of miles the valve side of those screw holes can loosen. Then we can see the screw itself break right at the lockdown nut seat from side loading. Run the screw in halfway from the bottom side and try to work it back and forth, if you can, replace the arm. We use a small wire brush on the end of a drill, a couple of strokes cleans the threads and this is helpful for installation. Never try to tap those threads, it doesn't work.
Another source of noise is the bottom side of the rocker shaft itself, it is common to see a lot of wear there. If present, accurate adjustment is impossible, the shafts will need to be replaced.
Some of these engines have so many miles on them we are now seeing a few rocker arms with the shaft housing bore worn, just a few years ago this almost never happened. This is easy to check for, slide the arm on a known sound shaft and try to rock it, some motion is acceptable of course but if very loose, replacement of the arm is the only solution.
We bite the bullet and buy Toyota only when arm replacement is required, otherwise we just recondition them and put them back on. A good used or reconditioned arm is just as good as a new one....*EB
The end of the adjuster screws move back and forth across the valve tip and over time an hourglass shape will develop. Then attempting to adjust the lash relocates that shape and we then have noisy operation. Plus we can see fractures develop in the end of the screw from loading, if allowed to continue we see damage to the valve tippet.
One overlooked point is the threads in the arm, over many thousands of miles the valve side of those screw holes can loosen. Then we can see the screw itself break right at the lockdown nut seat from side loading. Run the screw in halfway from the bottom side and try to work it back and forth, if you can, replace the arm. We use a small wire brush on the end of a drill, a couple of strokes cleans the threads and this is helpful for installation. Never try to tap those threads, it doesn't work.
Another source of noise is the bottom side of the rocker shaft itself, it is common to see a lot of wear there. If present, accurate adjustment is impossible, the shafts will need to be replaced.
Some of these engines have so many miles on them we are now seeing a few rocker arms with the shaft housing bore worn, just a few years ago this almost never happened. This is easy to check for, slide the arm on a known sound shaft and try to rock it, some motion is acceptable of course but if very loose, replacement of the arm is the only solution.
We bite the bullet and buy Toyota only when arm replacement is required, otherwise we just recondition them and put them back on. A good used or reconditioned arm is just as good as a new one....*EB
Oct 29, 2009 | 12:24 PM
#11
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From: hawaii
Ok when its 30 or below and I start my 4Runner I get a dry sounding knock for about 2 seconds.This is only after it sits all night.Ive noticed after initial cold knock the motor is quiet idling,hood up and my face right there closely listening to it.When I drive it the motor makes a constant sticking valve tick like sound.Motor has 233K on it,doesnt use or leak oil.Anybody have this same scenario?
Oct 29, 2009 | 12:45 PM
#14
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From: maine
mine does the same thing but more so it does the knock when warm or cold its only for about a second or 2 but it does have 1800000 i just put that motor in cause the other blew up it also has the ticking but what toyota doesnt have that factory toyota tick
Oct 29, 2009 | 01:02 PM
#17
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From: Northeast Pennsylvania
I have had great success with JcWhitney and EBAY......EBAY just for the hard to (impossible to) find stuff. Also, Summit Racing and years ago Performance Products (haven't ordered from them in years) and CRUTCHFIELD for stereo stuff.
Oct 29, 2009 | 01:04 PM
#18
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From: hawaii
thanks alot man you dont kno how much ive been trying to find some decent web sites thanks man
