clacking noise when engine is cold
12-28-2009, 11:05 AM
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clacking noise when engine is cold
So one thinks.. yeah when you go and start a cold engine oil has to build up, and initially there is no pressure applied to the tensioner and the timing chain. So while the tensioner is waiting that 1-2 seconds (sometimes even longer) the chain is floping against the plastic guides and the timing cover.. and that's where the clack, clack, clack comes from.. the chain slapping all over. right. SO, I changed to an oil filter with anti-drain back valve, Purolator L10241 (was using FRAM - no chk valve). Didn't make a difference. Noise is still there.
I don't think it's a stretched chain because otherwise the noise would not go totally away, it might get a little better after warm up but will still slap.
Checked valve lash.
Chain guides are worn a bit.
Face of the rocker arms are not worn out much.
Valve cover torqued at 40 in-lbs
I am afraid that enough of this and it will break the guides and rub through the timing cover sending metal shavings everywhere and eventually wear a hole in my tc cover causing a coolant leak, and coolant and oil will mix. Of course, I would immediately know if the guides break. But one wouldn't want that either of course.
So yeah.. 22REs are noise.. that's no news. Some noise is to be expected, but has somebody been able to eliminate that ANNOYING clacking noise at cold startup?
I don't think it's a stretched chain because otherwise the noise would not go totally away, it might get a little better after warm up but will still slap.
Checked valve lash.
Chain guides are worn a bit.
Face of the rocker arms are not worn out much.
Valve cover torqued at 40 in-lbs
I am afraid that enough of this and it will break the guides and rub through the timing cover sending metal shavings everywhere and eventually wear a hole in my tc cover causing a coolant leak, and coolant and oil will mix. Of course, I would immediately know if the guides break. But one wouldn't want that either of course.
So yeah.. 22REs are noise.. that's no news. Some noise is to be expected, but has somebody been able to eliminate that ANNOYING clacking noise at cold startup?
Last edited by livehho; 12-28-2009 at 12:43 PM.
12-28-2009, 11:16 AM
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Mine did that for a while. I was told it was piston slap, it went away when I changed to a heavier oil although I don't know for sure if that is why the noise stopped. Could have been coincidence.
12-28-2009, 01:49 PM
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actually it made more noise when using 20w-50.. now using Castrol Syntec 15W-40.. and planning to switch to 10w-30
12-28-2009, 02:10 PM
#4
Unless otherwise noted by toyota and or the temp at that time requires it just use 10w30. You prob have a faulty tensioner. Its nothing new and it will only get worse. One minute its slapping and the next its not or not as bad. Worn out oil pump is possible. If its slapping when cold then its prob your tensioner.... along with it the chain is streched a bit whether you know it or not. Now you could have piston slap upon cold start but then it would go away after warm up... and if there is piston slap your motor is prob quite tired and worn...
12-29-2009, 09:38 AM
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Yeah it's probably the tensioner. I'll replace it following the below procedure, otherwise i'll look into the other things, oil pump and stuff.. thanks guys
Remove the cover, unbolt the two bolts, press the arm back and set it in place, tighten the bolts to 12 ft lbs.
I usually manage to cut my fingers on the chain when replacing just the tensioner, something to look out for.
The big mistake is mixing up the oil pump bolts, one is short and goes in the top hole, if too long it jams the tensioner arm. Of course that means you get to do it again but by then you will be getting good at it.
I always bring the engine to top dead center before taking anything off.
That way the cam timing cannot be messed up.
Be sure everything, including your hands, are as clean as possible.
Remove the cover, unbolt the two bolts, press the arm back and set it in place, tighten the bolts to 12 ft lbs.
I usually manage to cut my fingers on the chain when replacing just the tensioner, something to look out for.
The big mistake is mixing up the oil pump bolts, one is short and goes in the top hole, if too long it jams the tensioner arm. Of course that means you get to do it again but by then you will be getting good at it.
I always bring the engine to top dead center before taking anything off.
That way the cam timing cannot be messed up.
Be sure everything, including your hands, are as clean as possible.
Last edited by livehho; 12-30-2009 at 08:06 AM.
12-30-2009, 07:52 AM
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I thought of sharing this answer Ted (engnbldr) sent to me yesterday:
When all is correct, the timing chain tensioner holds the chain taut, and there is little if any noise at startup.
You describe perfectly a chain running loose for a few seconds from either the tensioner bleeding off (possible defect, more likely a bit of debris which is the culpret about 90% of the time)
We also see the chains worn, I see many speak of "stretch" but this is not what happens, they are many wear points and we can see quickly that just a tiny .001" wear on the rollers alone will add a full one tenth of an inch to the chain length, around 4 tenths is considered too loose and will rattle a tad.
Then consider added wear at the side plates, and external roller wear plus wear to the gears themselves and there we are. Around 120K is the normal service interval.
The tensioner is the weak link, wear in the shaft or shaft housing which is more common and it will bleed off when the engine is stopped. The internal spring by itself is designed to help slow bleedoof, it simply cannot hold tensile by itself, if it could, we wouldn't need the hydraulics setup.
Dang thing needs to be mechanical and adjustable, I designed that but no company would make it for me, claiming there was "No market"...Bet I could have sold around 200,000 of them by myself but oh well....*snif**
Debris is common and constant, metal and fiber material is always in the lubricant, this is going to happen with any engine. The filtration system can get some of it, not all. Then we have varnish buildiups, small with most modern oils but also present, especially if there is service interval neglect which happens when life gets busy and involved.
It can all stack up to just what you describe. There are other possible causes of startup noise, an ECU that delays setting the timing (common) can cause a piston slap for a few seconds, (spark knock) the timing is simply advanced too much for a moment and this offers a few sharp sounding raps.
It is a PIA to diagnosis that common noise without specialized equipment to read the settings as it occurs. One I know about, one of my own engines I sold years ago did that. I replaced the cam, then the rocker assembly, then tore it apart and redid it, then I replaced the danged short block AND the head!!.
Noise still there, it was the darned ECU.
Then there is the injector that sticks for a few seconds.
Noise, I wish I had the perfect answer to that, it is my number one email concern. Tough little engines, noisy though. Like replacing the manifold with some long tube headers, sounds just like a rod bearing going out at certain throttle settings. The Tri-Y designs can sound like several valves are loose, too.
Then I fixed one noise by stepping on the guy's tailpipe and bending it down, that one was funny. Rubbing on the frame, it made the engine sound like it was growling. He just looked at me, bet he had 500 buck invested trying to fix the nutty noise.
See if you can obtain a mechanic's stethescope, then have someone else start the engine so you can determine the pocation the noise is coming from. That is a PIA too since it can take several days of checking as the noise goes away quickly.
My best solution to some is to turn the radio up before starting...*LOL**.
You might also bite the bullet and try one of those genuine Toyota oil filters, too, that has worked in around 10% of the cases similar.
What is really irritating is to spend the cash to replace the timing set, then find the noise right back in a couple of days, that one has happened to me also. But then I am lucky, I am about half deaf so most everything sounds just fine to me.
One thing, if you remove the valve cover and can easily lift the chain well off the top gear, replace the assembly. (Some slack is perfectly normal).
Hope this helps,
Ted(engnbldr)
When all is correct, the timing chain tensioner holds the chain taut, and there is little if any noise at startup.
You describe perfectly a chain running loose for a few seconds from either the tensioner bleeding off (possible defect, more likely a bit of debris which is the culpret about 90% of the time)
We also see the chains worn, I see many speak of "stretch" but this is not what happens, they are many wear points and we can see quickly that just a tiny .001" wear on the rollers alone will add a full one tenth of an inch to the chain length, around 4 tenths is considered too loose and will rattle a tad.
Then consider added wear at the side plates, and external roller wear plus wear to the gears themselves and there we are. Around 120K is the normal service interval.
The tensioner is the weak link, wear in the shaft or shaft housing which is more common and it will bleed off when the engine is stopped. The internal spring by itself is designed to help slow bleedoof, it simply cannot hold tensile by itself, if it could, we wouldn't need the hydraulics setup.
Dang thing needs to be mechanical and adjustable, I designed that but no company would make it for me, claiming there was "No market"...Bet I could have sold around 200,000 of them by myself but oh well....*snif**
Debris is common and constant, metal and fiber material is always in the lubricant, this is going to happen with any engine. The filtration system can get some of it, not all. Then we have varnish buildiups, small with most modern oils but also present, especially if there is service interval neglect which happens when life gets busy and involved.
It can all stack up to just what you describe. There are other possible causes of startup noise, an ECU that delays setting the timing (common) can cause a piston slap for a few seconds, (spark knock) the timing is simply advanced too much for a moment and this offers a few sharp sounding raps.
It is a PIA to diagnosis that common noise without specialized equipment to read the settings as it occurs. One I know about, one of my own engines I sold years ago did that. I replaced the cam, then the rocker assembly, then tore it apart and redid it, then I replaced the danged short block AND the head!!.
Noise still there, it was the darned ECU.
Then there is the injector that sticks for a few seconds.
Noise, I wish I had the perfect answer to that, it is my number one email concern. Tough little engines, noisy though. Like replacing the manifold with some long tube headers, sounds just like a rod bearing going out at certain throttle settings. The Tri-Y designs can sound like several valves are loose, too.
Then I fixed one noise by stepping on the guy's tailpipe and bending it down, that one was funny. Rubbing on the frame, it made the engine sound like it was growling. He just looked at me, bet he had 500 buck invested trying to fix the nutty noise.
See if you can obtain a mechanic's stethescope, then have someone else start the engine so you can determine the pocation the noise is coming from. That is a PIA too since it can take several days of checking as the noise goes away quickly.
My best solution to some is to turn the radio up before starting...*LOL**.
You might also bite the bullet and try one of those genuine Toyota oil filters, too, that has worked in around 10% of the cases similar.
What is really irritating is to spend the cash to replace the timing set, then find the noise right back in a couple of days, that one has happened to me also. But then I am lucky, I am about half deaf so most everything sounds just fine to me.
One thing, if you remove the valve cover and can easily lift the chain well off the top gear, replace the assembly. (Some slack is perfectly normal).
Hope this helps,
Ted(engnbldr)
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01-14-2010, 07:31 AM
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hi fellas, im new to this forum, but read TONS of good info here before!
2 months ago, i had a chain failure due to my lower bolt from the driver bracket came undone at 3000 rpm (nowhere else to go) jammed in the lower sprocket taking the chain, part of the cover but miraculously did NOT crunch my S Steel valves! Anyhow i got a valve job, new T cover, kit from engnbldr, clean pan, screen, put it all back, runs great!!!!! but i'm also getting the loud clack clack for a few seconds. BUT the weird thing is that it does not happen on the cold morning ( the engine revs at 1500 rpm so fast that if the noise is there i goes out fast), but it occurs when the engine is hot. I kill the engine and start it back up within seconds and......clack clack clack for a few more....
out of ideas....
Valve clearance is done twice to double check 0.008 int, 0.012 ext.
OH also new Aisin oil pump....
tried different filters.....
i run 10w30....
should i take it to a mechanis to check my oil pressure?
tensioner might be defective?? O.s.k ???
thank you for any help!
2 months ago, i had a chain failure due to my lower bolt from the driver bracket came undone at 3000 rpm (nowhere else to go) jammed in the lower sprocket taking the chain, part of the cover but miraculously did NOT crunch my S Steel valves! Anyhow i got a valve job, new T cover, kit from engnbldr, clean pan, screen, put it all back, runs great!!!!! but i'm also getting the loud clack clack for a few seconds. BUT the weird thing is that it does not happen on the cold morning ( the engine revs at 1500 rpm so fast that if the noise is there i goes out fast), but it occurs when the engine is hot. I kill the engine and start it back up within seconds and......clack clack clack for a few more....
out of ideas....
Valve clearance is done twice to double check 0.008 int, 0.012 ext.
OH also new Aisin oil pump....
tried different filters.....
i run 10w30....
should i take it to a mechanis to check my oil pressure?
tensioner might be defective?? O.s.k ???
thank you for any help!
01-14-2010, 08:35 AM
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hi fellas, im new to this forum, but read TONS of good info here before!
2 months ago, i had a chain failure due to my lower bolt from the driver bracket came undone at 3000 rpm (nowhere else to go) jammed in the lower sprocket taking the chain, part of the cover but miraculously did NOT crunch my S Steel valves! Anyhow i got a valve job, new T cover, kit from engnbldr, clean pan, screen, put it all back, runs great!!!!! but i'm also getting the loud clack clack for a few seconds. BUT the weird thing is that it does not happen on the cold morning ( the engine revs at 1500 rpm so fast that if the noise is there i goes out fast), but it occurs when the engine is hot. I kill the engine and start it back up within seconds and......clack clack clack for a few more....
out of ideas....
Valve clearance is done twice to double check 0.008 int, 0.012 ext.
OH also new Aisin oil pump....
tried different filters.....
i run 10w30....
should i take it to a mechanis to check my oil pressure?
tensioner might be defective?? O.s.k ???
thank you for any help!
2 months ago, i had a chain failure due to my lower bolt from the driver bracket came undone at 3000 rpm (nowhere else to go) jammed in the lower sprocket taking the chain, part of the cover but miraculously did NOT crunch my S Steel valves! Anyhow i got a valve job, new T cover, kit from engnbldr, clean pan, screen, put it all back, runs great!!!!! but i'm also getting the loud clack clack for a few seconds. BUT the weird thing is that it does not happen on the cold morning ( the engine revs at 1500 rpm so fast that if the noise is there i goes out fast), but it occurs when the engine is hot. I kill the engine and start it back up within seconds and......clack clack clack for a few more....
out of ideas....
Valve clearance is done twice to double check 0.008 int, 0.012 ext.
OH also new Aisin oil pump....
tried different filters.....
i run 10w30....
should i take it to a mechanis to check my oil pressure?
tensioner might be defective?? O.s.k ???
thank you for any help!
01-14-2010, 02:07 PM
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even brand new from o.s.k?? could it also be the oil pump itself(even new) not getting oil pressure up in time?
even after the engine is hot?
i also found (from other talks) that if the top bolt on the oil pump is too long it will interfere with the tensioner.... how much longer does it have to be for it to cause such thing? i was having trouble sowing everything up because many bolts came from hardware stores from previous owners....you know... i found myself having to replace a few and not sure if that one i was unlucky with...
thanks again!
even after the engine is hot?
i also found (from other talks) that if the top bolt on the oil pump is too long it will interfere with the tensioner.... how much longer does it have to be for it to cause such thing? i was having trouble sowing everything up because many bolts came from hardware stores from previous owners....you know... i found myself having to replace a few and not sure if that one i was unlucky with...
thanks again!
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