JohnnyCanuck

we do emissions tests for natural gas compressors - think big Cat/Waukesha/White engines (6 cylinder to v16)- catalytic converters do affect nox. We do pre and post test and they are they biggest game changers for Nox and 02.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

WOOT-The Third! hehehe. Thanks, RW, that's great info! (I browsed some really quick until later)..

See, .... THAT'S what I like to see, "more info" that I hadn't really thought to look at. What I did hear lots of from a few tech's is that, "Nox is NOT NEARLY as removable by even the 3 way CAT as the other chemicals are... So usually, 90% of the time, 'Nox Failure' is a cause and effect of EGR system failure/inadequacy"..... I WILL read those articles and hit that stuff into the 'CABBAGE IN MY HEAD MEMORY STORAGE'! LOL. Seriously... Once I visualize something, it's USUALLY there for either 'good' or at least 'a good time thereafter', hahaha.

The problem, so often, is that MANY people "adjust and finagle for re-test or even first test"... and then adjust it right back because they feel it's 'tuned right' that way... With older rigs like my own, anyhow. I've even read where 79 PU didn't have a CAT... and yet the Smog Station STILL failed the guy, no matter how much info they showed them to counter the stations argument. I DO, TOTALLY, understand the Stations, ESPECIALLY in CA, being PARNOID hahaha.

Thanks, Grego! I really appreciate that. Funny thing... My Local Dealer I deal with(where my buddy works).... They send you on line from their site to 'Trademotion'... it's the largest 'dealerdirectparts supplier'.... DDP.com says 190$... Cuz they're free shipping too. Still cheaper than toyotapartszone.com which is 206$ with shipping. I'll check that one and see(in case I end up needing an EGR. I really don't think that's my problem.. But I WILL be checking the small port that feeds the Modulator, plus the rest. I realize that the modulator can NOT do it's job without that TINY lil pipe being open and clear!)

BTW, ....GRRRRRRRRRR! hahaha. JK, ... I'm ok

PS> Thanks for the 'confirmation' info, Johnny :tipshattothecanucksmiley: lol.

rworegon

Chef, I agree...the EGR seems to have a fault that is spiking up the NOx and the CAT just can't clean it all up (assuming it is cleaning up some, of course).

Buck87

The guy that put in my 21/2" exhaust and cat reduces it back down to stock after the muffler. Sorry that I don't remember the exact explanation, but he is a local Toyota truck guru (all he does and lots of it). He said that is the best set up. Keep in mind that you and I have almost identical set ups...'87, large heads and valves, and a little more cam,10,000mi rebuild.
What about your idle creep issue? I would get that correct asap. Is there something causing you to lose vacuum like a brake booster?
I just had an idle and timing issue and started trippin, then I went back to basic trouble shooting and discovered that my coil was starting to go. Why do I bring that up? Well the lesson for me was to start with the basics and try to keep it simple.
Sorry if I am preaching.
PS With my set up timed to 5 deg. I passed smog with flying colors 3 weeks ago.Not rubbing it in just saying that it can be done.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, ... and we'll find out soon enough. Roger is right on one thing.... "At some point, just take it in and find out if what you've tried so far is having 'enough' of an effect...If not, dig further and try again", lol. (in other words of course, but that was the jest of it.) I will try it again with the modulator/verified clear t-pipe off the EGR that feeds the modulator/possibly a narrowed pipe or restricting plate for the CAT(have a buddy who will help me do a 'temp or perm.' fix on the exhaust to get the mixture right)/timing at 4-5*(mine moves about .5* from 4.5-5*)/and I'm going to also test through the system with a 'once over' to make sure all the sensors/etc. are operating properly.... Plus I'm gonna look at it really HARD and scare it into submission! hehehe. The good thing about what Roger/and the smog guy/ said is that I am NOT a "Gross Polluter"... So I can try a few times and not have to worry about that.(OF COURSE I don't want to waste money on testing more than this next one... So I'm trying EVERYTHING other than running alcohol in there.{I just want to get it to pass as it's meant to run, not hiding something that might be wrong with my rig, ya know?} )

Hey, Buck! Yeah, ... that's interesting. Ted of Engnbldr who's done these for ....??? Years? .... lol... He said the best set up is stock mani or tri-y and then stock exhaust to the muffler, then 2.25" out the back... I spoke to my exhaust guy and he said that my pipe after the muffler is indeed stock. He just cleaned it up and put my tip back on I think Toyota opened it up to 2" or something at the very back, and the rest was 1.75" before that right back to the mani. I KNOW they would have opened it up more were it optimal for all the variables involved... But yes, with a lil work done on them and a CAM, header, etc., ...none of that was brought into the picture by toyota. Still, we all now know that the EGR can't operate without Back Pressure, right? lol.. So if everything is wide open(other than the natural restriction of the CAT), then I guess there can't really be an adequate backpressure. I can see putting it at the 'after muffler' would cause a backpressure to the motor from there... just hadn't heard that method. Interesting.

I guess I'll find out after the next test if something else is really just 'off' within this system, whether EFI/ECU/VACUUM/IGN/or otherwise related. As I said, it's running like a raped ape, ESPECIALLY, believe it or not, with the timing retarded to 5*BTDC. I'm fairly certain that my top speed is better with it at 5* than it was at 8*. I hit 85-88MPH NO PROBLEM, not sure if I could have gotten more, didn't try, the CHP station was coming up! hahaha)

Far as the "Idle Creep"... It's VERY strange, Buck... Sometimes, it just raises from 750-800 back down to 700, within that range... I mean, I have to be stopped in order for it to do it, lol.. So I'm not sure if it's just an IDL issue or Vacuum related. I wish I could afford to just swap in a Late model Taco Booster and Master... Just not an option right now. I supposed it could have a pinhole... But why, then, would my idle at times head up to 1000 or so... Then by the next stoplight stick back where it's supposed to??? Sure would be cool to head into Toyota after my Lottery Win!(hahaha, I wish) and great EVERYTHING new, including AFM, etc...... Thing is, MOST of my sensors and such are new.

I agree on the 'FIND THAT IDLE ISSUE', Buck... especially with the strangest/maybe most telling factor involved in this... IT DID THIS IDLE THING BEFORE this second rebuild!(This seems important cuz it leans toward "something either EFI or Emissions or Vacuum or Sensor..You know, otherwise 'existing' issue that was not replaced).... I'm not sure enough on the EGR end as to what effect that can have in that arena... but I DO know that it can cause 'surging' and 'bucking' when it's having issues... So I imagine if it's having 'intermittent' operation, not TOTAL failure, it could be 'mysterious and tricky', hahaha. I'm pretty sure the EGR itself, at least in the Diaphragm dept, is intact. It holds 5" vacuum indefinitely... So I don't think it's got holes. BUT, it could be sticking up in the spring area. Hopefully a good cleaning/inspection to be sure will leave me at ease enough to know it's less of a problem than the Modulator(which has a lower life expectancy).

Terry reminded me that the lil t-pipe that feeds the modulator has a screw on it FOR REMOVAL. I WOULD LOVE to remove that if possible and clean it out, but I remember trying with Robert, the Race Truck guy I helped on his motor in Long Beach, .... and it was DARN NEAR IMPOSSIBLE! lol... THAT is not a variable that is iffy.... WIM is, ..IF that pipe is clogged,.... that lil one.... IT'S NOT going to work, AT ALL! It can't, the modulator is fed by that pipe and hooked to vacuum hoses on the top 3.

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

On the little screw on the EGR, I am a 4 out of 6 on getting it off. If you have carbon issues it WILL be clogged. I mount it in a vise and using apair of needle nose pliers and a phillps screw driver and work both at the same time.

Try tapping it with something metal to create vibrations on the screw before using the grips and screw driver. Every little bit has to help break it loose.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Thanks, Terry.......

Yeah, I'm going to at least inspect it again and make sure. I remember taking LOTS of time(after I pulled the first rebuilt JUNK out of there), reaming out that lil Modulator pipe. I got your PM on that stuff... I'm a lil confused. I thought that back pressure came up through the head into the bottom of the EGR lower pipe... Then through a system of 'temp checking' by the BVSV and such, vacuum is allowed back through the Rail, partially through the Modulator, then pulled on through the top of the EGR(BVSV top line?), by the BVSV which is also connected to the R port of the Modulator.. That in turn OPENS the EGR upper pipe, via the diaphragm to allow the 'EXHAUST GAS to be RECIRCULATED' through the Plenum and back into the Intake ports as 'recycled' exhaust gases. NO????? hahaha.

I keep thinking "this EGR stuff is so stupid" and "The test is made so hard by our earlier 22re's not having temp sensors, etc., for the EGR, PAIR Systems.... But then, I keep reminding myself..... HEY, IT PASSED WITH FLYING COLORS WHEN IT WAS ABOUT TO DIE, STUPID! hahaha. That was 2 years ago... It could be just coincidence that the EGR system has gone into 'OK, THAT'S ENOUGH' mode, lol... OR, it could be that certain sensors are just 'not right' and thus, creating a "OMGOSH, GO INTO LEAN MODE" panic with the ECU, ....ya know? hahahaha. Oh boy... just tired of this already, lol.

Gonna pull the EGR if I can... But the step dad needs me here all day, because my mom is pretty sick right now with a NASTY cold! ....... That's ok, it should allow me to do as much testing as possible within the rest of the system, just to see 'what readings I'm getting'..

Only thing with diving into the ECU/accompanying sensors, etc., ? >>>> I'VE DONE IT 20 TIMES! lol. I have results posted about 20 times too,.... But there IS ONE THING that never seemed to be 'SPOT ON'.... The AFM. I know it's the right one, and I know it was 'passing'.. but on the "Force the flap open and watch the resistance... It should steadily rise to (?) , reaching at least (?) ohm Resistance"... etc., lol. Can't remember off the top of my head... But I'll look into it, anyhow... Why not, right? lol Ehhhhhhhhh lol.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

PS> Still have NO CLUE where the EGR passages are on the Exhaust side in the pics I've posted......... ???????????????? I've searched many times, can't seem to find ANY Paint Shop Circled answers, lol.

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

On your AFM, seems like when I had my injector issue that the closed and wide open position were the only constants, seems like it wasnt a steady rise in resistance as you might would think as the flap gradually opens. If I recall right, it wasnt what I thought the results would be. More the flap opened the higher the resistance. I will see what I ran into on that.

Your operation of the EGR sounds more right. I still havent figured out the purpose of all of them VSVs other then adding more vacuum lines.

I have a 22r on the stand and I know the plate on the back of the head has something to do with the exhaust passage. Let me go and see if I can see how it possibly flows.

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

Something I just seen and never had any problems with is on one of my junk heads, going from the EGR thru the head to the Plate on back is full of carbon. Never had one to plug up there. So there is a possibility of it being at fault.

As far as the flow from the exhaust side, it looks like it goes thru the plate, but I am not sure how it flows from the exhaust side to the plate other then a passage some how thru the inside of the head. If it got carbon got plugged in there, I dont know how to clear that if it ever it did clog.

Probably not much help, just dont want you to feel like you are hanging out there on your own.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

You're ALWAYS helpful, Terry.. Even if you're just getting me to 'think it out'..Either way, I wind up with "Hmmmmm" or "NOPE, not right" to ponder, lol. Usually "HMMM" or "AHHHH, I see".... As they say in Hollywood, ... 'LOVE YOUR WORK', hahaha.

EDIT: erasing that rant, starting over...........

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Ok, well, I had a bunch of pics to share but either Photobucket is messed up or it's MY computer and Adobe Fplayer all screwed up(or again, just on my puter).... And I'm about to snap a cranial twig so I'll just type out stuff, lol............>>>>>>>>>

1. I inspected the EGR-to-Modulator t-pipe.... It's COMPLETELY clean, and I mean 'like new'. I actually stuck a 12G wire down in there and with no resistance it bottomed out on the other side of the pipe... So I KNOW that, at least, is clear.
2. I bent the wire a bit and forced it down into the bottom end of the EGR Pipe... I could turn it around and hear it flapping on every wall w/out hang up.. So just as I remembered, it's clean in there
3. I removed two of the right side bolts and left the stud to head EGR nut on, but loosened... Then removed it from the plenum(the other 2 bolts) and tilted it back. I could see that it's REALLY clean in there, just as I remembered.
4. Peered in the Intake with the rubber elbow off.... It looks nearly new, nearly like when I pulled them from the hot tank. TINY build up, nothing remarkable. More like a lil tan film forming in spots.
5. Installed the New Modulator
6. Double checked timing
7. Inspected the fuel lines(return and feed to filter and rail)... Both could EASILY be blown through with just my lungs, creating a nice 'BLUBBLURP' session in the tank as I did so. I also remember removing/replacing my fuel pump and the condition in there, to be honest, was prisitine. Not one spec of rust on anything regarding the assembly nor anything I could see inside the tank walls, etc.(thanks for the idea and instructions, Terry)

Now.... what I DID find interesting is this;

When I installed the new modulator(last thing I did), I had to hit the store before 9PM to drop off the 'Redbox' stuffs, lol... After warming up, I noticed it was REALLY chunky at points.... It was like it was rejecting the modulator(not sure how best to word it, lol)... Then, I remembered, that on many threads, guys would tell people repairing that stuff, this, "Dude, make sure you reset the ECU"... Most would ask why, as I did initially... The answer was, "because, even though your EGR system isn't electronically connected to the ECU.... EGR DOES effect how the ECU runs things when an EGR system is jacked up. In reality, it's recirculating exhaust gases.... So if those gases are not there, it's going to somewhat choke the stuff back out where the EGR was trying to pull it in... right back out the exhaust but NOT having gone back through the intake.... This removes the 'second burn'(so to speak) from the picture, where it's somewhat cleaned up(whole purpose of the EGR, right?)... This also creates a MUCH richer 'reading by the 02'.... Why? Because it's reading gasses that are supposed to have been burned off.... So the ECU says, "Woe, lean it out".......When it leans it out, .... internal combustion temps go up."........ Does that make sense to you guys? I mean, it mostly does to me now. lol.....

....Summing that up, if the Modulator doesn't work, the EGR CAN'T work. NOT saying that did the trick... we'll see... but what I DID notice right off the bat was, that it ran kinda crappy after going into open loop with the new Modulator. I will reset the ECU tomorrow... But I'm starting to wonder if it was ever going into open loop. That would POSSIBLY make sense, right? lol... (Terrible Fuel Economy/Smelly Exhaust/Failing Smog).. I would think just failing to stay in open loop would cause failure of smog, wouldn't it? At least in CALIFORNIA? lol. Like I said, we'll see.

I also noticed something, at least I THINK I DID, haha... >>> Before replacing the modulator, I think I mentioned that, "even after warming up, the exhaust was still pretty stank"..... I can't be CERTAIN as to how much less 'stank' it is, now...But I could literally put my face right over the pipe and wiff and it was NOT super stanky, with that 'nail polish remover' smell any more. It did almost smell like stuff was burning off, like the faint smell of a header burning off a lil 'stuff' when it's first ran. Wonder what that is... ? It wasn't strong, just that 'I COULD smell it where I couldn't before'.

Anyway, I'm just speculating until I get it back in there.. I'm going to reset the ECU and run it for a while with that RXP Gas Kicker in there for the rest of a tank..... (bout 2/3rds), then slap in a half tank of premium91 at 76 Gas Station, drive it for a bit and then call him when I'm on my way so I can get it right in there(He told me to do that and he would roll me right in).

************************************************** ***************

On a side note;

Something really strange happened. After noticing, that with the new modulator it was a lil chunky at first, I also noticed it started doing something it was, months ago. When I came to a stop light, I noticed that, while it was bogging down a lil(to almost 550rpm) it would idle back up when I turned off the lights/radio. The voltage didn't move, but the idle sure did. After around 20 minutes of driving, turning it off while I went in the store, then starting it again, ....>>> it didn't seem to do it much if at all any longer. I'll check that out tomrrow as well, with a load. I'll test the alternator output, loud output,... you know, all the tests, haha. It just kinda freaked me out because I had that issue for a while, just a few months ago.... "Voltage Load Effecting Idle". What's REALLY strange is that it didn't do it at all until I installed the new Modulator! lol.

ToyoTech559

fingers crossed. hope you pass

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hahaha... Thanks, man! I appreciate the input, buddy... That was all helpful in keeping me thinking this out. I don't believe in "Jinxing" or anything like that... So I'll just be honest... If I don't, it's back to the drawing board! lol.

I WILL test out a few things first, just to be sure my ECU/Sensor system, etc., is all at least within specs, ya know? I know that ALL of it at one point not long ago DID in fact check out... But hey, ANYTHING can happen! lol. I sure the heck know that one, right? lol.

ToyoTech559

if you can. i would swap out your cat for an oem one. borrow one from a buddy. oem cats are much heavier and will have much more metals inside. will clean much better than any aftermarket cats made with the bare min metals required

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I wish I could find one to borrow

Maybe if I fail again I will just 'get that all over with', lol.. But I'm hoping not to fail, grrr! hahaha. I totally agree though... One of those things that I HAD NO IDEA wasn't an 'upgrade' until, ..well, recently! hahaha.

Hey, ....can I stop by with my saw'zall and grab yours tonight? hhehehe

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Looks like my 'Firefox' is the issue. Google Chrome worked just fine in pasting the pics. For some reason, Firefox is not allowing it to update/install, nothing. Without it, I'm not even able to 'copy' pics from Photobucket in any way! hahaha...

OK, here's dem pics.......

The fuel lines I forced air through(they were TOTALLY free of any obstruction)....



Just a top view of the Vacuum rail to Modulator set up/EGR, etc.... Plus, pic of the new Modulator I borrowed(SHHHHH! lol)......


Pic of the Pipe I checked out to see if it was clean(the one feeds Modulator).....


Thought I'd throw a pic of the CAT up that I'm running.. I wanna call up some shops I know and ask them if this is the right one for my rig... If not, I'm heading back and asking them to swap in 'STOCK SIZE' CAT, for now... or give me my money back for all the drama I've been through. One thing I DO know is they really don't make many mistakes there.. Been there 40 years doing ALL types, including commercial.. So we'll see...


I guess God felt I have had a rough week/month/year, lol.. So He must of nudged my buddy(he said, "I felt TOTALLY PUSHED to call you man"...lol)... to drop me off a gift..... He's heading off to the Middle East... Bout all I can say about it cuz it's pretty hush hush(shhhh! lol)...


WIN! lol. I felt STRONGLY about giving him something and he allowed me to... 50$... Not bad, eh? lol. Should make for some nice surround sound movie time at the Camp site, eh? hehehe

I'll update asap, guys, promise!

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

Wouldnt think a Modulator would cause that much trouble just adding a new one. The Modulator you have on now looks more like a 1st gen pickup, wouldnt think it should really matter though.

Like Toytech said, the aftermarket cats just arent as good as a factory. I just scrapped out a new Edlelbrock catty last week from a S-10 frame swap I helped on awhile back. They give $5 for aftermarket and $45 for factory. I thought the Edelbrock would be a good quality and maybe they are, but they said the factory cats have more of the material thay are after.

My wife truck had a dented converter on it and sice the converters are after the O2 sensors and I even think it is causing a problem I remove them. Luckily fo us no smog issues. I usually just leave them with the muffler shop to dispose of.

I am making room for the 88 roll over that Jason and I are getting ready to part out and seen another converter that I had missed or it would of been gone. I will see if it is good or not so I might have one if you need it. Not sure if it is even Toyota.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

good luck! like toyotech mentioned - you can borrow my oem cat if all else fails. BUT, you gotta get some flanges welded on so you can just bolt it up....I'm not going to let you cut or weld on mine!!

Terrys87

iTrader: (1)

Just checking in to see if you passed.