ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

ANYONE could answer me, I'd appreciate it........ Just asking for 'opinions'.......

The more I think about this, the more I'm starting to think it's something like the 02 or WHATEVER might cause the ECU to 'misread' and just continuously lean it out. The fact that I lowered the timing 3* should alone have changed SOMETHING. Then I thought about how the modulator swap DID change things, initially, dramatically... Well, unless the other one was questionable... why would it do that? Secondly, seeing that it did, then adjusted.... WHAT could cause that adjustment to put me right back where I was?

???>>> 02, AFM, TPS, CTS/....or could backpressure alone or lack thereof be causing not just an EGR issue... but MAYBEEE it's CAUSING the 02 to be 'SLOW' (as the tech's word it)... If it's slow, it sends "RICH" to the ECU... if it sends 'RICH' to the ECU, then NOTHING but "LEAN" will result, right?

I have a dial meter, and since I can't take it anywhere til Monday anyhow(If I can even get away), then I might as well at least rule a couple things out(if I can't, at least TRY to get a better picture, right? haha).

I know the CTS can do that too(cause a temp problem that's NOT there, then the 02 reads it and..... etc.)

At any rate, it just at least seems suspicious that it wound up with the same results even retarded on timing and such..... Hmm, always the wonders of OBD1 continue to bless those without oscilloscopes! lol.

vang_22re

Sup mark, a question just popped in my head when read the last couple of comments here.

When you bought the o2 sensor, are you sure they didnt give you MAF (mass air flow) sensor?

Ive seen that happen before from people coming into the shop. The o2 sensors has a lot of holes on the tip while the MAF has about 1/2 or if not 1/4 of holes only. Just a though.

vang_22re

Sorry mark i ment air and fuel ratio sensor haha not MAF

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Well, I have an AFM, following years had MAF's.. Assuming you're asking, "Did they give you an 02 for a vehicle that had a MAF rather than the AFM that you have?"... And you're saying that the AFM 02's have more holes than the MAF-02's? I'd have to look... It's OEM, and I have the Part Box in the Garage. I have to get out and look at something for Jerry(92TOY,... actually for his Son, Joe's rig)... and I'll grab the box for the heck of it.

The AFM I got was the same part number as my original... My original had been opened at the 'adjusting screw', then filled with FIPG... So I got a replacement. Never paid much attention as to 'why' he opened it up, but now I'm wondering... "Did the PO of my rig have issues with getting the A/F ratio right? The Foreman of my local dealer messed with the screw in there, ...so I'm not sure if I can just adjust the screw til I get the right readings with a Multi-Meter???? Or if it even works that way.

Dude, ...90+MPH yesterday before the test... .NO PROBLEM, just PURRING! Just blows me away... But should it? : Maybe the high NOX is ONLY showing up at those certain RPM's/MPH tests and when on the HWY, it's clean? Maybe at higher RPM the 02 is doing it's job? (all speculative as I don't even KNOW that I have an 02 problem, lol). I can't just slap a new CAT in it.... I just don't KNOW enough yet, ya know? I certainly wont buy one, that's for sure, unless a 5-way test professional tells me, "Dude, this CAT is NOT doing it's job"... I'm still waiting to hear from another shop whom I gave the part # of my CAT to, just to see if it's the right one... .They're away for the weekend.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Having a lil trouble on the toyotapartszone site, trying to verify it's right. I'm pretty sure my buddy at parts down at my local dealer would have double checked by my VIN... But anything's possible, right? lol.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

HMMM, Put in my VIN at Toyotapartszone.com.... this is what it said next to my 02 Sensor Part Number........



Check If This Part Fits Your Toyota
Input Part Number
To verify if this part fits, a VIN is needed. Your VIN can help to determine accurate vehicle information such as engine, transmission, and more.
(VIN # JT4RN***********)
This part does not fit your vehicle.
What is VIN and where to find it?
Verify if the VIN you inputted is correct or use this VIN to search in our parts catalog.

Your Toyota: 4-RUNNER TRUCK 1987 USA
RN61LV-MSEA 198704 22REC SR5 V MTM 5F W ST EFI CBU FL11 3D7

************************************************** *************

ARE YOU FREAKIN KIDDING ME????????????????????????????????

I'm not going to get my hopes up... Cuz dealerdirectparts.com, when I put in my Vehicle Description/year, etc., ... it says in the "checkout" area that the PART Number I posted up there is correct. Only things I can think of are (1.) Toyotapartszone.com is going by my VIN# and are correct... or (2.) Dealerdirectparts.com is right .......

VERY curious as to why this wouldn't have thrown a code(if indeed it's the wrong part, etc.).... ???

Guess I STILL have to wait until Monday, no matter what, to make sure. Just find it odd that when I put in my Vin on TPZ, it comes up IMMEDIATELY saying, "This part does not fit your vehicle".. Yet dealerdirectparts.com actually POSTS that number without me going any further than make or model(IN fairness to DDP.com... they want you to call and speak with the guy so he can run your VIN and be SURE they're sending you the right thing.). And, it's what came up when I got it at the dealer. I have to look a the receipt and see WHO sold me this(make SURE it was My buddy).... And if it was done by VIN... I can't remember a SINGLE TIME that the dealer has sold me a part without VIN(other than oil filters, etc..... And even then, they still look it up most often)... Gonna find that receipt. Maybe it's set up for a 2-02 sensor model? I have no idea... like I said, TPZ.com might be wrong on that one, right?????????????? lol.

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

Is there a Nippon Denso number on the O2 sensor? If so, go to another site like rockauto, amazon, sparkplugs.com, etc.... and see if the ND matches with the ND number they identify as the right part.

Sparkplugs.com says your ND sensor part number is 234-1051 for:

Make: TOYOTA
Model: 4RUNNER - SR5
Year: 1987
Engine: L4 - 2.4L - FI - 22REC - GAS

Crap....Rockauto says your ND part number is 234-1056

And double crap......Amazon says both of them fit your vehicle!

Dang....are you paying $123 for the O2 sensor? or is your buddy giving you a $100 off? Get a OEM ND one and they are only $25

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I will look on the 02 Sensor that's installed, then on the one here, original(I doubt it's visible any longer... we'll see. lol.

Yeah, and Toyotapartszone seems to be the only one asking me for the VIN#. I know there are "87.8-88.8" type look ups on certain things on certain sites. (that's for if you don't have your vin>...........???????? lol. How would someone have the Manufacturing Stamp on the door yet not the VIN?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

PS> Looking at the orig wont necessarily be spot on, Grego... Just thought of that... that they 'update' the numbers many times over the years.

Yeah, I got it pretty cheap, not 25$.. But cheaper. I thought I was making TRIPLE SURE by getting it from Toyota Parts Center near me, ya know? Now I know better, but I'd bought this before I even rebuilt the first time, lol. It's got around 8K on it, give or take.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Both the Orig.(that passed many times) and this one in there now say Toy Part# 89465-12030............WTH? lol....Again, this is the box I got.......

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

When I put in the actual number on the part in toyotapartszone.com....

" Check If This Part Fits Your Toyota
Input Part Number- 89465-12030- There is no information for this part number. Contact us for further assistance."

..... As I said, I think it's right... The original with the same number worked adn passed smog MANY times, ya know?

Grego92

iTrader: (4)

Geeze....nothing is coming up easy for you. I did a google search for the heck of it and came across a post from another site that stated Toyota 89465-19265 is the same as ND 234-1051. And on pirate someone posted the same thing you encountered...the box number with the different sensor number stamped on it. crazy.....

rworegon

Chef, I ran out and looked at my 02 sensors and what is stamped on the sensor DOES NOT match the PN on the box. Toyota does something strange with these PNs, IMO.
The difference in the number stamped on part and the box is a longstanding, back to at least 2006, as indicated in the Pirate post:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=449559

The EPC shows:
89465-19265 Sensor, Oxygen Prod Date: 198309-198708
(this PN replaced 89465-19055 and ??)
89465-39325 Sensor, Oxygen 198708-198808

89412-12010 Sensor, EGR Temperature 198708-198903 Calif. Spec.
From what I gather your production date is pre-198708.

Sorry, I have no flashes of brilliant insight this morning....

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, .... looking at them having the same numbers on the actual body of the 02's, both original and current, ... I think I'll save myself any chasing of tail as to that, ya know? I passed with the same numbered original as the one I have in there now. What I DO want to verify is that it's doing it's job.(It was not 18+" from where it used to be on the stock manifold). I mean, there are MANY instances where guys are using my set up and they run 'heated 02 sensors', usually from something different like a 92 Escort or whatever. Others do what Roger/4crawler did: .... He failed NOX, then did some restriction plate work(I believe AT the collector), ported out the EGR and voila, he passed.(I'm just mentally exhausted, ...I know he did a lil more, but I got the jest that was what he felt helped more than anything).

Seriously, Yotatechomie, .... THANKS! lol.... I'm VERY grateful that you took time to look that up/paste it here......Whatever was involved, you took time, s'all I could ask for, ya know?

As I said above... Need to rule out/or-verify problematic- the 02. I can do that right from the diagnostic port... Just need time. Last couple days have been literally a nightmare in caregiving/working every minute in between.

Once I rule out/Verify problematic/ the 02, I can go from there. SOMETHING is causing a "Lean Out" condition no matter the adjusting of timing/EGR Verification. Of course, if I can't/don't find a culprit, and subsequently, if I have to take it to a smog pro.... they could find the 'restriction/backpressure' is just not there, etc. I can't really verify that w/out slapping a restriction plate in there and re-testing... And that's ok, I'm good with 2 failures under my belt already! lol.... (I Know, it's not me really failing, but still... grr! hahaha).

I'm trying to find the receipt for the CTS I had in there from Napa..... If that was before the date I took the last Smog(which I passed, not really close to 'failing')... well, then I might have an issue there. I'll test it asap, but right now; I'm with the receipts, not the rig, ya feel me? lol.

Things I KNOW have been changed, thereafter the time I passed;

1. AFM(donor)
2. 02 Sensor(NEW-OEM)
3. TPS(NEW-OEM/Adjusted 3 times to 4Crawler/oem specs)
4. Thermostatic Temp Time Switch(NEW-OEM/on the Thermostat pipe)
5. IACV(NEW-OEM)
6. All Vacuum Hoses
7. Thermostat(NEW-OEM)
8. Fuel Pump and Filter(NEW, Bosch and FRAM...I KNOW, I KNOW... only 6K miles on it, was before I KNEW THE BIBLICAL-YOTA TRUTH! lol)

Off hand that's all I can remember in the dept. of "THINGS THAT SCREW WITH AIR FUEL RATIO", which have either been replaced since passing or not.....

If I find nothing and they find a Vacuum leak with a smoke test or something...... Well, there ya go... But after 3 times, I think I've got it down on the 'install properly' dept. Still, never know, ya know? lol.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

1. TESTED CTS;

..... The original CTS ......

..... Tested it and it's dead on to specs on the sliding scale from 70*F cold and steadily, uninterruptedly slid on the scale from 1.9K Ohms Resistance to 140*F where it hit .6K on the dot.

Coolant Temp Sensor is Working
************************************************** ****************

2. ETHER-Vacuum Leak Test;

..... Could not get a single bump out of the ETHER until I ran a TINYYYYYYY mist next to the AFM intake Pipe in the Grill..... Idled up and then back down as it should.....

No Vacuum leaks detected that I would think could cause such a NOX or otherwise failure in Smog Testing/Otherwise testing.
************************************************** ****************

PS> Boy, it's really acting strange at times, ... seemingly idling up and down very lil and hard to notice... but there.

PSS> Next test, "02 Sensor"

Chuckar

Chef I was thinking you could run that part# at toyeast and put your vin in there I have bought 100 of dollars of parts (more than I want to think about) from them and have not received a wrong part yet just a thought.http://http://www.toyotapartseast.com/ I am watching this very closes we have almost identical set ups same cam same exhaust system I don’t know about the head mine is an EB RV head. I have had to move back to CA before for my job so I am keeping it smog legal even though where I live I don’t need to get it smoged, I know nothing about this stuff good luck man.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hahaha.. I hear ya, Chuckar... Well, unless you don't even look into at all IF IT has a problem with smog... YOU WILL LEARN! lol. You know what I mean... It's just a process of elimination. Sometimes, things are more 'difficult' to analyze or eliminate, etc.... so we go for the 'more obvious' culprits.... Well, if you're followed my build thread, you know... NOTHING NORMAL, not once, has happened to me! hahaha. Still, "I'm not the only one it's happened to", nonetheless, right?

PS> Thanks for the link.. can't hurt. But I'm pretty sure I'm ok.......... See next post........>>

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

O2 TESTING;

...... 02 seems to be fluctuating plenty within 10 seconds... (I didn't make sure it was 8 times, no).....

..... "With the positive probe in Ox and negative probe in E1, fully warmed engine, race the engine at 2500rpm for 90 seconds, then watch the fluctuations. Should be 8 times within 10 seconds... If not there's a problem. Should be within 1-5V"..............

Mine was bouncing between 3.whatever and 6.whatever(I used a digital, couldn't get my dial one to work)... But I could see the numbers sit at around 3.2-3.4 for a half second or so, then up to 5.5-6.5 or so......... The FSM says, "1-5V".... But it's fluctuating, so I might just not have had it at 2500rpm(couldn't that factor in?). Even at whatever I had it at..... let's say 3000-3200rpm..... it WAS reading low voltage like that and fluctuating as well.

Whatcha all think?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

OK, ...

I've tested the 02, as I said, .... But I'm a lil confused on something. When I have the Multi-meter on 10V, and it reads .280-.680(it varies on the low end from .280-.380, then .480-.680)I'm starting to think maybe my voltage is less than a volt??? WTH? Come to think of it, I set it on 2V setting the first time, and it was still bouncing from 2 at the lowest to near 7 at the highest... I just couldnt' remember if there was a decimal before the numbers... But then I thought, OBVIOUSLY, ...it wouldn't be showing "7Volts" on 2V setting, right?

My other question is .... the FSM says, "should read between 1-5V, bouncing 8 times in 10 seconds"..... IF it's reading .280-.680 volts... (i'll check again tomorrow)... then I guess that's a big problem!

************************************************** ***

I also tested the AFM on there, finally... It seems to be checking out on all the recommended resistance readings. Lil bouncy on the 'move the vane and it should gradually increase/decrease' portion of the test...But much better/less dropping off than the one I HAD in there, originally.

************************************************** *************

Checked all the exhaust nuts... they're all still pretty good.. But I see some blackening under the PAIR block off plates..... I'ma check out the gaskets under there.

************************************************** *************

I'm going to also try my old 02 in there and see what kind of readings I get.... If I get the same, or close, then I guess IF those numbers I got are 'IFFY', then I can lean toward 'something might be up' in the 02/EFI/ECU/IGN, some part that's making it wonky, lol.

************************************************** *************

Still having a weird(should say AGAIN HAVING) a weird thing with voltage load causing idle drop.

And, the 'running bad' at initial open loop seems to be adjusted a bit... but I still have a strange off beat miss. Meaning, it's not repetitious, it's random and erratic.

Ok, that's it for now. lol. Trying to find some DESPERATELY needed assistance from Insurance for my Step-father. They come tomorrow to evaluate... please keep us in your thoughts that they might see how messed up he is and offer help right away? Thanks!

Buck87

Y'all in my prayers.