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blown motor?

Old 03-16-2017, 08:52 PM
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blown motor?

Hi:

This is my first post on this forum. I do not have much mechanical skills in repairing toyota pickups. However, I am willing to learn and try to resolve the issues on my 1992 Toyota Pickup base cab with 22RE 2.4L engine, approximately 175,000 miles.

Here is the problem or problems:

When started the pickup, a rattling noise at idling and the noise level rattling sound decreased as I accelerated the gas. Going to the store and there was little power when acclerating. Feels like the toyota pickup is losing power/compression and finally died on me while driving.

Now the pickup does not turn over at all, nothing!! I feared I might have blown the motor and I am not sure what to do. There is some water in the engine crankcase. Do I need to replace the motor/engine? If so, what are the components of the engine do I need to replace? Valve cover, head, engine block, water pump, oil pump, valve guides, timing chains, etc.? What parts on the Toyota pickup can be save and/or use for? I don't want to fall in a trap where buying parts are not needed and ending up wasting money on parts. I am not sure of where to start, either.


These are things I have done so far a few days ago before the toyota finally will not turn over as mentioned above:

1992 Toyota pickup 22re engine 2.4L manual transmission 5 speed
Toyota pickup knocking sound on the engine:
Bad valve lifter?
bad rod bearing?
push Rod bent?
connecting rod bad?
1. Noisy, vibration, rattling issues. Need to find exact noise location and its solution to this issue. I already removed and replaced valve cover gasket.
2. Valves adjustments near the arm rocker had been correctly gapped.
3. Water pump, oil pump and its gaskets are good. No oil or water/coolant leaks.
4. Timing chain is correct on TDC (2 of those), Top Dead Center.
5. Could be timing chain valve guides near the timing chain be worn out and need to be replace.
6. Could be timing chain itself is worn out, loose, etc.
7. Could be oil issues: Replace oil filter and new oil to see if that does the trick in stopping the rattling noise. Too late already for that now.

I did some web searching particularly on ebay in regards to the engine. Some are just engine blocks only. Others are engine repair kits which consist of timing chains replacement kits along with oil and water pump, valve guides, gaskets, etc.. What about a complete engine with engine bloc, cylinder heads, valves, pistons, valve covers, etc? Should that all be replace as well? I also heard valve cover gets warped, too. What about engine compression or the lack of it?

Does anyone out there have similar experiences and willing to share? Any comments/feedback/advice is greatly appreciated.
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Old 03-17-2017, 06:01 AM
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I had the similar sounds from my engine when I bought the truck used, with 323K. It just got louder a year later but there was no water/coolant in the oil, but it sounds like you do. I brought it to a mechanic and after a day or 2, he said the the timing chain guides broke which caused the rattling sound, the rockers are worn which produced a ticking/tapping sound (needs to be replaced), and replace the rear main seal (oil leak). He said it'll be really expensive to fix and he wasn't sure of the condition of the block. He recommended to get another engine.

I brought it to another mechanic and he actually tore down the engine and said the same thing, but at this point the head gasket was about to go. Luckily he is an engine builder (Toyota) and I decided to get one of his 22RE. I've been happy with it ever since, but its only been a year now.
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Old 03-17-2017, 06:12 AM
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Toy1368, thank you for your last message. I appreciated it. From what I gather, including looking up the FSM online, it seems that I need to take everything apart in the engine area. I just wish there is a step by step process in removal instructions. Just to keep researching this isssue. I will continue to update my progress on this forum on a continous basis.

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Old 03-17-2017, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Learning View Post
Toy1368, thank you for your last message. I appreciated it. From what I gather, including looking up the FSM online, it seems that I need to take everything apart in the engine area. I just wish there is a step by step process in removal instructions. Just to keep researching this issue. I will continue to update my progress on this forum on a continuous basis.


A service manual be it a Toyota factory, Chilton, or Haynes all give step by step instructions. Your first and second step is to acquire and read one starting with the introduction and general practice sections. Next decide if you are willing and able to follow the instructions.

Do you have a good tool kit?
Do you have a good workspace?
Do you have any mechanical experience?
Can you deal with the vehicle possibly being out of service for several weeks, or months?
Do you want and are able to give it the detailed care it will need?
Do you have the required funds on hand, any budget at all?

If the answer to any of these is negative you're most likely at a point it needs a professional or sold.

Judging by the descriptions "doesn't turn over" "has mixed coolant and oil" it is going to need major repairs!

Some simple things you can do is..
​​​​​​​Verify you have a good battery charge. Remove the spark plugs and check for water in cylinders causing "hydro lock". Remove the valve cover and inspect the chain hasn't eaten a hole in the timing cover.
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Old 03-17-2017, 06:18 PM
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Co_94_PU, Thanks for your above comments. As for your questions:
Do you have a good tool kit? yes
Do you have a good workspace? yes
Do you have any mechanical experience? some
Can you deal with the vehicle possibly being out of service for several weeks, or months? yes
Do you want and are able to give it the detailed care it will need? yes
Do you have the required funds on hand, any budget at all? yes

As soon as the rain stops, I will go ahead as Co_94_PU stated above "Remove the spark plugs and check for water in cylinders causing "hydro lock". Remove the valve cover and inspect the chain hasn't eaten a hole in the timing cover." As as that is done, I will report my findings. Stay tune.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:18 PM
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Water (coolant) in the oil is never a good thing, water doesn't lubricate and accelerates bearing wear. If it's been ran to the point of a rod knock, piston wristpin known, or the cam jornels, it's likely all bearings in the engine have more than allowed wear too and needs rebuilt (very expensive since standard bearings etc won't be the right size and a machine shop willl need to work on it too), or the easier route find a replacement engine. The short (no head) and long (with head) blocks on ebay are expensive compared to complete engines in my area, seems craigslist is a better option. If you're near Michigan or want to make a trip, I have a 1990 22RE engine with 223k miles that was cared for. Also have a 1986 22R (carb) engine with 67k miles which would require putting your sensors on the engine, and swapping the intake over, atleast from my understanding for efi vs carb. The 86 engine sat in the truck for a really long time (estimating 20-25 years minimum) in a garage, so I'd suggest changing seals due to age and lack of use.

To replace the engine yourself you'll need a way to lift the engines, most of the time people use cherry pickers. I've seen leveling bars used so you can balance the engine, not 100% required but helps (I've always used chain or big enough rope). You'll also have a bit of a fight on your hands to get the transmission bolts out due to their location. A good collection of extensions and swivels in 1/2in drive and an impact would be ideal. I'm not thinking of any other special tools above the basic socket and wrench set you'd need except maybe a torque wrench.

If you buy a used engine, generally major and a pain to get to service parts are replaced such as rear main seal, water pump, timing chain, front oil seals, transmission input shaft seal, etc. Also when I get a "new" engine, I like to give them a basic tune up replacing spark plugs (oem style ngk or denso), plug wires (generally run NGK), distributor cap & rotor, and change engine oil even if it looks new (moisture buildup from sitting can be a bad thing).

These might not be in the perfect order, but here is the basic things needed to do to get the engine out

Remove cooling fan, radiator shroud and radiator (drain it etc)
Remove intake plumbing, to air box, should be able to leave the base in, but could pull it for the room and saftey it doesn't get broken
Inside the cab remove passenger side kick panel and get the ECU unplugged
Route the wire though the firewall and disconnect or remove parts as needed to make the harness come out with the engine. The other route is to unplug everything on the engine, but it seems the first option is easier in most cases.
Since the engine is likely bad (I'd suggest getting it validated before trying to swap it out), a lot of people like to disassemble the engine to make it lighter and smaller to work with. Not needed, but is an option.
Fuel lines and vacuum hoses need to be disconnected, generally it's suggested to take photos and mark the lines if there are no identifying marks on them.
With all the lines, hoses, and electrical free between the engine and cab/frame, it should be time for the engine mount bolts, this is also the time to hook up your cherry picker and help get the bolts out and to be prepared to lift.
With the engine stable, work on removing the transmission bolts. I'd suggest targeting the top ones first as they are the hardest to deal with.
If it's a stick there shouldn't be anything holding the engine to the transmission, be mindful of the clutch line there's a hard line to soft line mount up near the rear of the engine passenger side that I think mounts on the block. For an automatic you'll have to unbolt the 6 bolts that hold the torque converter on which stays in the transmission when the engine is pulled. Also need to make sure the transmission will be supported once the engine isn't on it, I think there's a cross member right below the bell housing.
With the engine having nothing running form it to the truck, you should be able to wiggle it side to side and see the engine and bell housing separating, It might take a pry bar to help it along and fiddling with the cherry picker. Once it's moved forward about 1/2 an engine, it should be off the doll rods between the engine/trans and it should move much easier. Move it forward basically as far as possible, be mindful of your condenser if you have AC. Visually inspect for anything connected to the engine throughout the whole process encase anything was missed and to check clearances. Slowly work on getting it lifted, you'll have to get the oil pan over the front core support so having the truck not jacked up would be ideal, I've seen where people have pulled the oil pan because it was so close to clearing.

That's pretty much all from memory, I don't swap engines very often, generally I'm pulling out of junker trucks, so the body gets removed first which makes the engine side of things a lot easier.

Good luck and be sure to validate the engine is in fact bad before trying to go the route of replacing it. Crank no starting would suggest a compression test in your situation, no crank (locked up) I'd suggest trying to turn the engine backwards with the crank bolt and a breaker bar or ratchet, if it moves then something is stopping the engine, hydro locked, stuck lifter, broken rod, etc or a bad starter. With good compression the engine should still start, even with bad bearings, I've started plenty of engines with holes in their block and a broken rod. Sounds terrible, but it helps me validate the electronics are good before disassembly for parts.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:30 PM
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atcfixer, Thanks for your comprehensive and well thought details in your last post above. I appreciated it. Well, I got my hands full of information and helpful advice from those who posted on this thread. Like I mentioned earlier, I will do what needs to be check out and report my findings, course of action, etc. Stay tune.
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Old 03-18-2017, 12:47 PM
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Update:
To determine whether I need timing chain kit and/or engine replacement:

Here is what I have done so far:

Check the battery voltage, picture #.1

Engine top, Picture #2

Check oil crankcast for water, pictures #3,4, and 5.

Check dipstick for oil, water, picture #6

Removed spark plug, picture #7,8, and 9

Next:
Remove valve cover, take picture under the valve cover.

Take picture of chain and chain guide cover, if possible. Also, check the timing chain is loose.

In addition, in order to determine whether the engine is bad or not, since there is no crank, I will go ahead try to turn the engine backwards with the crank bolt and a breaker bar or ratchet later in the week. if it moves then something is stopping the engine, hydro locked, stuck lifter, broken rod, etc or a bad starter. With good compression the engine should still start, even with bad bearings, according to the previous post by atcfixer. If the engine does not turn backwards, then the engine is no longer functioning (engine is dead and done with) and need to be replace. (I hope not).


Also, I looked at timing chain kit on ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/85-95-Toyota...WVn7Ug&vxp=mtr

I am hoping that the engine is O.K. and all there is need to do is get a replacement timing chain kit with metal chain guide cover.

I ordered 2 ton Capacity Foldable Shop Crane and 2 Ton Capacity Heavy Duty Load Leveler. Both of them should arrive later this week. Stay tune for further updates.
Attached Thumbnails blown motor?-1.jpg   blown motor?-2.jpg   blown motor?-3.jpg   blown motor?-4.jpg   blown motor?-5.jpg  

blown motor?-6.jpg   blown motor?-7.jpg   blown motor?-9.jpg   blown motor?-11.jpg  
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Old 03-18-2017, 01:44 PM
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Oil floats on water, easiest way to check if water is in the oil is to pull the drain plug and see what comes out and stick it back in right away. Really water would run out easier, so probably wouldn't even have to pull it all the way out.

FYI, battery voltage is quite low, from memory 11.6v is dead, and fully charged is 12.6v, but I don't know if the voltage displayed is while under load or not.

Camera didn't focus the best on the plugs (it focused on the background), but looks like the fuel mixture isn't too bad, maybe just a touch on the rich side for the first two. The last one would be a focus point though, is it really clean... you know like steam cleaned from a bad head gasket? What's the last plug look like, same as first two? Hopefully it isn't a head gasket, but that wouldn't completely stop the engine from firing but could be a possible source for water in the oil.
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Old 03-18-2017, 02:25 PM
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What does the underside of your oil fill cap look like? I'm not seeing the water but may just be your picture. I wouldn't think you could even find water looking into the valve cover but the cap will often have a frothy, milky residue on it and if you look at one just after it has run, it will be really wet looking and not thick and black like you would normally see. atcfixer is right about how to see the water. The oil and water will have completely separated by now. Get you a clean, clear jar and pull your plug for just a second and catch just the first few ounces from the pan. If it all looks like oil, put the jar on a shelf and let it set overnight. If there is water in it it will sink to the bottom. If there is enough water in it to kill an engine, you will see it right away. Keep that oil handy and drop a clean magnet down in it and see if you see any chunks of metal. A wrecked engine will have chunks in it at the bottom of the pan. Now get this right. That first few ounces of oil is going to tell you a lot. If you loose it, you'll be without your best evidence. You can also remove the filter and take a pipe cutter to it. You need to cleanly cut it in two and pull out the paper. lay out the paper and dry the oil out of it. You will see the shine of metal if there is any in it.

I'd say the next step would be to pull the plugs and valve cover and check to see if you've dropped a valve or have other damage to the valve train.

These steps are in addition to looking over your timing chain circuit but catch you an oil sample first to verify water / metal in the oil.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:35 PM
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My $0.02...don't buy parts or equipment until you're sure what you need. Specially a hoist. In the pix looking in the oil filler opening on the rocker cover...it does look like some cloudy oil at the edges, which would indicate coolant in the oil. When you get the rocker cover off, get your penlight and take a close look down the DRIVER side. If your timing chain has never been replaced, almost 100% guarantee that you'll see parallel grooves worn by the chain cuz of slack during startup especially. looks like a couple of 3/16 cutters on a milling machine would make. If its bad enough, thats where the coolant/oil interface wouild be. Mine was mighty bad at 144,000 miles, but not all the way through.

Don't go cheap on parts. I got most of my stuff from rockauto.com and some from enginebuilder, and a couple of items from a Toy dealer. If I can find them I'll post acouple of DIY timing chain job guides. If you're careful (and lucky) you don't have to disturb the cylinder head or oil pan. Lotta extra work there and chances to screw it up. You'll be told that you must remove the pan to get any pieces of broken plastic chain guides. I won't advise one way or the other except to say I didn't and I ain't worried now or 30,000miles ago about clogging the oil pickup screen.

Worst part about the chain job when I did it was cleaning parts, surfaces, and fasteners. I don't know what to say about steel chain guides. I didn't. Toyota engineers know what they're doing, and that engine was around a long time b4 my '89 was manufactured.
http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...ingChain.shtml
http://www.4x4wire.com/toyota/maintenance/timingchain/
You have to very careful about easing the timing cover out and away from the head, block, and pan. Good luck.

Last edited by JJ'89; 03-18-2017 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 03-19-2017, 05:40 PM
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Charchee, atcfixer, JJ'89. Thanks for your comments above. I am grateful for the help to pinpoint the exact problem areas.

First, I did what Charchee suggested by draining oil from the oil pain using a clear glass jar. I enclosed the pictures below. So far, it appears some different color above the black oil or maybe not due to reflectons of the sun or something else. I also put in magnet inside the jar to attract metal particulars. I stirred around inside the jar and no metals or anything else sticks to the magnet. I did this eariler today and will report again tomorrow since Charchee indicated to wait for about 24 hours later.

After that, I will continue to do the next several steps in order:


Remove valve cover, take picture under the valve cover.

Take picture of chain and chain guide cover, if possible. Also, check the timing chain is loose.

In addition, in order to determine whether the engine is bad or not, since there is no crank, I will go ahead try to turn the engine backwards with the crank bolt and a breaker bar or ratchet later in the week. if it moves then something is stopping the engine, hydro locked, stuck lifter, broken rod, etc or a bad starter. With good compression the engine should still start, even with bad bearings, according to the previous post by atcfixer. If the engine does not turn backwards, then the engine is no longer functioning (engine is dead and done with) and need to be replace. (I hope not).

I am repeating myself again in this thread. I am just being thorough and follow through exactly as I stated. I don't want any mixups/confusion on my part. Stay tune.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:25 PM
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Still a little early on your oil jar. You set it up outside so if you don't see the water line in the morning, don't move it and set up a light behind it after dark tomorrow or before work in the morning when you aren't getting sunlight from all angles. Looking back in your pictures from before, I can make myself see water in your oil filler hole but pictures can be deceiving. I'm not ready to call it yet. I'd sure take that valve cover off before you try to turn it with a wrench. If you have a helper, you may be able to see something in the valvetrain that has you locked. Would be good to look at both of those things at the same time. Not a big deal thought if you're just turning it backwards a few degrees but you are going to end up there anyway at some point.
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Old 03-19-2017, 06:44 PM
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Charchee, thanks for your comments. Stay tune for updates.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:54 PM
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Oil in Jar update

See the pictures of the oil in jar below in attachments. This was taken later today this evening. So far, it looks like the oil is holding up without any water shown, right? That means the engine is ok and not broken. Next step is to turn the crank backwards to see if it moves and not forward. If it moves backwards, that means the crankcase trying to go forward is not turning due to other components such as bad timing guide, worn out starter motor, etc. First, I will remove the valve cover, timing chain parts and other parts to gain access to turning the crank on the engine. Stay tune for updates
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Old 03-20-2017, 04:47 PM
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You should be able to sneak tools down to the crank with out removing much. Worst case pull the skid plate off and do it from under the truck. Timing parts don't need to be pulled to check if it rolls backwards. Also try to go forwards too (carefully). If something stops it from spinning, you don't want to damage whatever it is, if it isn't already damaged atleast. You don't have to use the crank bolt, it's just normally the best option. You could try to spin it by hand, or the alternator too. You might have to press down on the slack side of the alternator belt so it doesn't slip. If it doesn't move, don't go overboard trying since it is possible to damage belt.

The starter mention was purely for the fact the starter solenoid could be bad which would just click like it's trying to work, but not actually spin the motor, it shouldn't interfere with spinning the motor by hand in either direction unless the shaft is stuck out which I've never seen on a yota.

Oil seems fine, that just tells us there isn't water in the oil. If there is something majorly wrong with the engine, it likely is worth fixing it vs replacing the whole engine. The oil does look quite dark, has it been a long time since the last oil change, or do you use cheap oil? It's darker than what mine looks like after 15k miles, unless it's the camera. Pics on the dip stick looks much lighter, so I'm thinking it's the camera.
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Old 03-20-2017, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by atcfixer View Post
Oil seems fine, that just tells us there isn't water in the oil. If there is something majorly wrong with the engine, it likely is worth fixing it vs replacing the whole engine. The oil does look quite dark, has it been a long time since the last oil change, or do you use cheap oil? It's darker than what mine looks like after 15k miles, unless it's the camera. Pics on the dip stick looks much lighter, so I'm thinking it's the camera.
Hey, in his case, the darker the better. Also, the light source is above it and we're looking through four inches of it. I like the look of it so far.

I can't remember if anyone mentioned this before but, when trying to turn over an engine by hand, taking the spark plugs out reduces the compression and makes it much easier to turn. You probably know that but just thought I'd throw that out there in case you didn't.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:41 AM
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Update:

I have not been able to work on the pickup due to the nasty weather out here lately. I will continue to update and will post it on this forum as to my progress on this project. Stay tune.
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:01 AM
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I finally was abled to do a quick engine test as mentioned above in the previous post to determine whether the engine is gone for good and need another engine to replace. So I turned the crankshaft pulley bolt, using 3/4 inch socket, not 19mm,. I put the shift gear in neutral. I turned the bolt clockwised and, as expected, won't bulged or moved. The same thing happened counterclockwise. This tells me several things that could be the cause of the lockdown on the crankshaft pulley bolt that I am awared of:

1. Engine is locked tight due to piston, valves, rods, etc. jammed up.
2. Starter motor gear locked in geared with no release spring from the crankshaft gear, causing no movement either clockwise or counterclockwise.
3. Starter motor died due to worn out, age, etc.
4. Valve rocker jammed, causing no movement on the crankshaft pulley

Are there any other areas that stopping the crankshaft pulley bolt from moving so can I test whether the engine is dead and gone and need to get another engine, head replacement, piston rods, rings, etc.? I just want to make sure that is the problem correctly. Comments, feedbacks, and/or advice is greatly appreciated.
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:28 AM
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The 22re is a pretty simple motor, could pull the valve cover off and check the timing chain, and look down with a flash light and see if the plastic guides are broke. Fairly common to have a ticking noise for a while before the chain causes a problem. These engines are interference, meaning if the valve timing isn't spot on, the piston can hit the valves.

Having the engine fully locked up is kind of uncommon/rare of what I've seen atleast. Generally they lock up from sitting and getting rusty cylinders. Another possible thing that's fairly easy to check is to pull the belts off the front of the engine. A locked up alternator or power steering pump could make the engine appear locked up too.

With the rattling noise you had, if it was more of a hard thunk type of noise (heavy metal to metal) it could have a blown rod. Check the driver's side of the engine block for cracks or holes. Wouldn't hurt to check the other side, but all I've seen came out the driver's side.

Piston could melt to the cylinder walls and lock up, but the engine would have had to been overheated or ran without oil getting to the pistons.

About everything I can think of off hand.
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