Bad Clutch Install?!?
10-17-2006, 05:48 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bad Clutch Install?!?
I just installed a new clutch into my 93 4unner 3VZE, I went with the Downey kit, new pilot bearing, and throwout bearing, did nothing to the flywheel as it looked fine. Install went smooth I thought untill I took it our on the road. The truck kind of bucks when i first start driving, then once moving I get this kind of vibrating/grinding noise. Hard to describe, I was told that the bucking is from the pilot bearing but it is brand new, and dont see what could be wrong, as far as the noise on the road it is all the time both in and out of gear... so shouldnt be the TO bearing, which too points to the pilot bearing. All the bolts are tight and in place. Anyone have any other ideas before I tear the whole thing apart for a $5 bearing?!?!
Thanks
Thanks
10-17-2006, 06:04 PM
#4
Registered User
Did you check it for flatness and I assume that it wasn't glazed at all (though that would be surprising) ?
Did you check the pb to make absolutely sure that it was the same as the one that came out of it ?
Did the tranny install back ok, with the shaft going into the pilot bearing with no binding ?
Fred
10-17-2006, 06:42 PM
#7
Registered User
I just installed a new clutch into my 93 4unner 3VZE, I went with the Downey kit, new pilot bearing, and throwout bearing, did nothing to the flywheel as it looked fine. Install went smooth I thought untill I took it our on the road. The truck kind of bucks when i first start driving, then once moving I get this kind of vibrating/grinding noise. Hard to describe, I was told that the bucking is from the pilot bearing but it is brand new, and dont see what could be wrong, as far as the noise on the road it is all the time both in and out of gear... so shouldnt be the TO bearing, which too points to the pilot bearing. All the bolts are tight and in place. Anyone have any other ideas before I tear the whole thing apart for a $5 bearing?!?!
Thanks
Thanks
i dont know what you did, but my mechanic installed my clutch and the symptoms you mentioned sound very much identical to mine. i have not resolved this problem yet. the one thing that is different is that he says he resurfaced the flywheel. i have no 100% proof on that, but given you have the same issues as mine, i am begining to wonder if he did take it down to get it resurfaced...grr....
if you get it resolved by getting the flywheel resurfaced or other things, please let me konw by posting
here's my experience: https://www.yotatech.com/search.php?searchid=2223771
Bob
Last edited by Bob_98SR5; 10-17-2006 at 06:44 PM.
Trending Topics
10-17-2006, 06:46 PM
#8
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
did you have pb and to bearings replaced? what did the shop say bout probs? were you having bad clutch probs b4 install, as mine was fine it was just replaced as a sort of preemptive measure due to long road trips and minor slipping nothing major to merit the need for a flywheel resurface...
10-17-2006, 06:49 PM
#9
Registered User
did you have pb and to bearings replaced? what did the shop say bout probs? were you having bad clutch probs b4 install, as mine was fine it was just replaced as a sort of preemptive measure due to long road trips and minor slipping nothing major to merit the need for a flywheel resurface...
10-17-2006, 07:16 PM
#10
Registered User
It is difficult to diagnose a noise problem without hearing it...
But I have put in lot's of clutch sets, average 3 a month for 15 years. I still ding up pilot bearings on install sometimes. Everybody does that sort of thing sometimes. I have also left small chips of metal in the cavity when I had to work hard to remove a bearing. Then the chip works into the new bearing and kablooie.
Once about 5 years ago I installed a pilot bearing in a vehicle, (not a Yota), and then sprayed down the flywheel with ether to dry the oil off from handling. The ether cut the packaging oil and it ran out of the bearing and I forgot to grease the shaft. Again, 50 miles and kablooie. Bearing scorched and seizing to input shaft.
I am not trying to call anyone's skills into question by any means but it is always possible. I have also gotten many "bad out of the box" parts from every reputable supplier I deal with in that time so you never know.
If the pilot bushing is seizing to the shaft it is not allowing the input shaft to slow down enough to make a smooth shift.
The motor is always turning and with your foot off of the clutch the transmission input shaft is turning at the same speed as the motor. The clutch, when pressed, actually pulls the plate off of the clutch thereby uncoupling them. While shifting your RPM's drop but the transmission actually slows down faster IF the pilot bearing is smooth. If the pilot bearing is functioning as it should while the pedal for the clutch is down the input shaft of the transmission is completely uncoupled from the motor with the flywheel and bearing spinning happily around it. If it is seizing or dragging then the trans compnents are not slowing down enough to make a smooth shift.
An experienced driver may be able to check this problem by power shifting without clutching at all. If it shifts without noise then, it is probably the pilot bearing as it will not be "in use" so to speak during the shifts. If you don't know what that means I don't suggest you try it unless you want to risk damaging your trans.
About the flywheel, I always recommend it to my customers but I don't have a machine. That could mean at least a half day dropping it off and waiting for them to get to it. With this in mind and the additional cost at least 75% don't get them ground. I would my own car if the clutch had failed at all but as a regular maintennance repair I probably wouldn't even look at it close if it didn't already shudder. Sorry this ran long just trying to help.
But I have put in lot's of clutch sets, average 3 a month for 15 years. I still ding up pilot bearings on install sometimes. Everybody does that sort of thing sometimes. I have also left small chips of metal in the cavity when I had to work hard to remove a bearing. Then the chip works into the new bearing and kablooie.
Once about 5 years ago I installed a pilot bearing in a vehicle, (not a Yota), and then sprayed down the flywheel with ether to dry the oil off from handling. The ether cut the packaging oil and it ran out of the bearing and I forgot to grease the shaft. Again, 50 miles and kablooie. Bearing scorched and seizing to input shaft.
I am not trying to call anyone's skills into question by any means but it is always possible. I have also gotten many "bad out of the box" parts from every reputable supplier I deal with in that time so you never know.
If the pilot bushing is seizing to the shaft it is not allowing the input shaft to slow down enough to make a smooth shift.
The motor is always turning and with your foot off of the clutch the transmission input shaft is turning at the same speed as the motor. The clutch, when pressed, actually pulls the plate off of the clutch thereby uncoupling them. While shifting your RPM's drop but the transmission actually slows down faster IF the pilot bearing is smooth. If the pilot bearing is functioning as it should while the pedal for the clutch is down the input shaft of the transmission is completely uncoupled from the motor with the flywheel and bearing spinning happily around it. If it is seizing or dragging then the trans compnents are not slowing down enough to make a smooth shift.
An experienced driver may be able to check this problem by power shifting without clutching at all. If it shifts without noise then, it is probably the pilot bearing as it will not be "in use" so to speak during the shifts. If you don't know what that means I don't suggest you try it unless you want to risk damaging your trans.
About the flywheel, I always recommend it to my customers but I don't have a machine. That could mean at least a half day dropping it off and waiting for them to get to it. With this in mind and the additional cost at least 75% don't get them ground. I would my own car if the clutch had failed at all but as a regular maintennance repair I probably wouldn't even look at it close if it didn't already shudder. Sorry this ran long just trying to help.
10-17-2006, 07:36 PM
#11
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 257
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
well that brought up some interesting info, the old pilot bearing was a pain to get out! by the end of it it was busted up though i cleaned it as best I could and even ran a magnet around the area to pick up any metal chips... the old pilot bearing was rough but i experianced no problems, the new one felt smooth. It is possible not likely but possible I did not hammer the new one in far enough... the tranny does shift fine however, have nto tried shifting /o pushing in clutch however. The noise occurs at all gears though.
10-17-2006, 07:47 PM
#13
Registered User
Yeah not far enough in could do it I didn't think of that but I have had it happen once or twice. Keep in mind it could also be a master cylinder or slave cylinder problem the symptoms would be very similar but the noise it would be like scraping gears.
I don't know your experience level with this job but the pressure plate to flywheel bolts have to be tightened evenly. I usually finger tighten them all, then starting at the top of the flywheel I tighten each bolt 2 or 3 turns and move to the next. Never tighten a bolt on the pressure plate then move on to the next it has to be sequential or you can "spring" the plate and it will not be on the correct plane. That could cause jumping starting off just like a warped or bumpy flywheel.
I don't know your experience level with this job but the pressure plate to flywheel bolts have to be tightened evenly. I usually finger tighten them all, then starting at the top of the flywheel I tighten each bolt 2 or 3 turns and move to the next. Never tighten a bolt on the pressure plate then move on to the next it has to be sequential or you can "spring" the plate and it will not be on the correct plane. That could cause jumping starting off just like a warped or bumpy flywheel.
Last edited by rezrunner92; 10-17-2006 at 07:53 PM.
10-17-2006, 07:57 PM
#15
Registered User
Yup, the "not in far enough" could cause the problem that you're experiencing.
I haven't looked at the input shaft for that type of tranny, but many have a cone shaped taper to them before they neck down to the pb size.
If the pb isn't installed far enough it could be up against the necked down portion of the input shaft, if the input shaft is necked down.
Nah, I'm not really fiesty, it's just that my shop did a lot of clutches in many types of vehicles, I would never do one without having the flywheel resurfaced.
I've seen others do it and have problems. To me, it simply isn't worth the risk of going through that work simply to have to pull it all apart again.
I have seen parts bad "right out of the box", and I always took super care with the pb as they can cause havoc if not 100% correct.
Fred
I haven't looked at the input shaft for that type of tranny, but many have a cone shaped taper to them before they neck down to the pb size.
If the pb isn't installed far enough it could be up against the necked down portion of the input shaft, if the input shaft is necked down.
Nah, I'm not really fiesty, it's just that my shop did a lot of clutches in many types of vehicles, I would never do one without having the flywheel resurfaced.
I've seen others do it and have problems. To me, it simply isn't worth the risk of going through that work simply to have to pull it all apart again.
I have seen parts bad "right out of the box", and I always took super care with the pb as they can cause havoc if not 100% correct.
Fred
10-17-2006, 08:12 PM
#16
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Man I'm thinking Flywheel, and this is why. I was so eager to get my new stroker 22re in that I forgot to put the pilot bearing in the new crankshaft. I broke the cam in, let it cool, checked the headbolts and valves and then rode it around the block a few times to work all the bugs out. I thought everything was cool untill about 3:00 am when I was cleaning up and I wanted to oil my old crank down and seal it up and I saw the pilot bearing and I almost puked. The point is I never noticed any difference in the way it shifted or ran but thank God I saw that old bearing.
10-17-2006, 08:13 PM
#17
Registered User
If you run a shop or work in a shop you have a right to be feisty, at least that's what I tell my wife.
I would like to resurface all mine too but you save enough time off of the ten or twenty that don't come back to pay for the one that does. Plus I always do the ones with bad clutches but just a maintennance I don't worry, that is what a lot of the ones I get are anyway maintennance replacement not failure. If I think ones bad it gets ground. Not turned ground. I have had turning cause problems before depending on the machinist and his tools.
My grandad said the comebacks are good practice and you have to pay to learn just like college. He also said, "Sure I get a few back. I'm man enough to admit my mistakes but just look at the thousands of transmissions I've put out that I never saw again."
I would like to resurface all mine too but you save enough time off of the ten or twenty that don't come back to pay for the one that does. Plus I always do the ones with bad clutches but just a maintennance I don't worry, that is what a lot of the ones I get are anyway maintennance replacement not failure. If I think ones bad it gets ground. Not turned ground. I have had turning cause problems before depending on the machinist and his tools.
My grandad said the comebacks are good practice and you have to pay to learn just like college. He also said, "Sure I get a few back. I'm man enough to admit my mistakes but just look at the thousands of transmissions I've put out that I never saw again."
10-17-2006, 08:32 PM
#19
Registered User
If you run a shop or work in a shop you have a right to be feisty, at least that's what I tell my wife.
I would like to resurface all mine too but you save enough time off of the ten or twenty that don't come back to pay for the one that does. Plus I always do the ones with bad clutches but just a maintennance I don't worry, that is what a lot of the ones I get are anyway maintennance replacement not failure. If I think ones bad it gets ground. Not turned ground. I have had turning cause problems before depending on the machinist and his tools.
My grandad said the comebacks are good practice and you have to pay to learn just like college. He also said, "Sure I get a few back. I'm man enough to admit my mistakes but just look at the thousands of transmissions I've put out that I never saw again."
I would like to resurface all mine too but you save enough time off of the ten or twenty that don't come back to pay for the one that does. Plus I always do the ones with bad clutches but just a maintennance I don't worry, that is what a lot of the ones I get are anyway maintennance replacement not failure. If I think ones bad it gets ground. Not turned ground. I have had turning cause problems before depending on the machinist and his tools.
My grandad said the comebacks are good practice and you have to pay to learn just like college. He also said, "Sure I get a few back. I'm man enough to admit my mistakes but just look at the thousands of transmissions I've put out that I never saw again."
great reading, thanks for writing all that down.
so is it possible for the shop to pull everything out and examine what they might hhave done wrong? or are clutch installs a one-time-you-better-get it-right-the-first-time sort of thing?
bob
10-17-2006, 08:43 PM
#20
Registered User
Very obvious bluish spots, uneven surface, very fine hairline cracks, (these can be filled in with clutch lining and easily overlooked), wavy appearance, feel, etc. If any of these things are noticed it should definitely be resurfaced. It is possible that the flywheel surface could have been uneven like a brake rotor from a previous problem and the old clutch had worn to the shape when you got the vehicle, I don't know the history. If that is indeed the case, in a matter of time the same thing could happen to the clutch you installed. It will eventually wear into the wave pattern of the wear on the flywheel. This doesn't always happen but if the flywheel wasn't noticeably distorted it should correct fairly quickly.
That being said it sounds more like a pilot bearing and if I were going to drive it long I would pull it back apart and check it out before it can cause major damage. I could pop a front shaft into your trans for $50 if you brought it to me with the new shaft in hand but the shaft is quite high I am sure and better safe than sorry. If it doesn't correct in a couple of days I would check it out as soon as possible.
Bodo the reason for there being no noticeable difference is that the bearing wasn't in at all. That way the shaft would be completely free from the flywheel all the time. this would most likely eventually cause vibration and lead to front trans bearing replacement. But never a noise, (at least not right away if the clutch is lined up perfectly), or shifting issue. With the bearing IN and seizing up is just the opposite.
That being said it sounds more like a pilot bearing and if I were going to drive it long I would pull it back apart and check it out before it can cause major damage. I could pop a front shaft into your trans for $50 if you brought it to me with the new shaft in hand but the shaft is quite high I am sure and better safe than sorry. If it doesn't correct in a couple of days I would check it out as soon as possible.
Bodo the reason for there being no noticeable difference is that the bearing wasn't in at all. That way the shaft would be completely free from the flywheel all the time. this would most likely eventually cause vibration and lead to front trans bearing replacement. But never a noise, (at least not right away if the clutch is lined up perfectly), or shifting issue. With the bearing IN and seizing up is just the opposite.
