AxleIke

So...A bit foolish of me perhaps, but i purchased it anyway. The lifetime Firestone alignment. Thought i was set, align my truck when it needs it after wheeling, good to go.

After wearing out most of my front end, and being told it wouldn't align anymore, i replaced many things. The truck has good Camber Bushings, new camber bolts, new ball joints top and bottom, new tirerods, new tie rod sleves, new idler, and recal relay rod, not 3k miles on it. Ball joint spacers, but relaxed now almost to stock (looks to be just a hair above stock, but barely noticeable.

A couple weeks back, the truck was perfectly aligned within specs by a shop down in town. I relaxed my torsion bars a bit, to return to a stock stance yesterday.

Took it into my firestone here in boulder today, and i will never ever return to that firestone. They told me that they couldn't get the camber and caster set. I was so mad i about blew a gasket, because after being shocked with all the new stuff and the truck being LOWERED from where it was, they were telling me they couldn't align my junk, i went out to inspect. Guess what?!?! Camber bolts had not been moved. I kid you not.

The camber bolts are new, but for those who follow the weather, we've been getttin lots of snow....so there is dirt on the new bolts. After the alignment, still dirt on the new bolts. No sign of wrench use whatsoever.

Both wheels are canted inwards, like so \ / But the pass is worse. I go back inside and ask, very politely, if the guy would come out and have a look. He does, and gives me a complete load of BS about how he can't do anything, because it will screw everything up and my tires were to blame. I told him the truck had been aligned with 33x12.50's by their shop in the past, and been about 98% within spec. I now have 9.5's

So, i thanked him, left, and went to a non chain shop who's done some good stuff for me in the past. Guy there says that firestone does this crap all the time. They want to hurry, and most of the time the can get away with just setting the toe, since that is what causes cars to pull from side to side, and thus alert drivers to a problem.



ANYWAY, long story short, i'm paying 40 bones to have a shop redo the alignment ONE day after it was done by these bastards.

Here are my two questions. The first is, for those who wheel your trucks, what do you do about this. I mean, at 40 to 60 bucks per alignment, how do you get around the cost of getting it aligned so you don't kill tires? Do you have a deal with a shop, or are there other shops who do lifetime deals that aren't scumbags?

Second, and more importantly, how do you do it by hand? I mean, i realize there would be some specialized tools involved, but for goodness sake, IFS has been around before these new laser fangled alignment machines have been, and they had to align them somehow. Why is it no one knows how to do this?

Anyway, sorry about the rant.

all_terrain17

I feel ya man. The DS wheel has been canted out for a while now from the rocks, but I just noticed last weekend that the PS wheel is canted inward pretty bad...The angle of the tires is like \ \ from the front.

I had planned on getting a Firestone plan like you have but I dunno after hearing your troubles. Maybe it's just relegated to the management of that particular shop?

I've found a pretty good driveway alignment procedure for our IFS before using string, but I can't find it now...I'll keep looking.

EDIT: Found one if you don't mind spray painting your tires, but it isn't the one I remember. http://www.automedia.com/Align/It/Yo...cr20021201ay/1

wjwerdna

if you are off real bad... just start playing with it... you should be able to understand the basics pretty quick... especially with all that new hardware... there IS a really good alignment thread here somewhere...

if you get it close, one, you will feel good about doing it (mostly) yourself, and 2 they shouldn't be as prone to complaining about it...

ChickenLover

I picked up a Downey IFS truss a while back. It seems like it has helped quite a bit. I haven't had a wheeling related alignment issue since. Installing one might be worth your while.

I too have the firestone lifetime alignment deal. I'm not particularly happy with their service. After I replaced my lower control arms, the truck was pulling to one side. I took it to firestone and told them that I had replaced the LCA's, and that they were way out of alignment. They (firestone) didn't do a damned thing to it. After sitting in their lobby for 3 hours, the truck still pulled to one side. When I got home, I checked my bolts and adjustment washers. They hadn't been moved.

I brought it back to those tards the next day. After another 3 hrs, they finally got it fixed. A simple adjustment to the LCA's. Gee, who knew? ˟˟˟˟˟˟ idiots. A couple weeks later, I noticed a looseness in the front end. It turns out that firestone didn't completely tighten the bolts on my driver's side LCA. Apparently, this is rocket science.

FWIW, I've always had great service at Big-O. They are top notch IMO. I wonder if they offer a lifetime alignment deal...

neilan

well i work at a les schwab and if you have one were you are at then i would definatly consider taking it there. Why have it alligned eevery tiem your go wheelign it should take quite a few trips befor anythign is off even enoguh to notice. Perosnally in my 87 i had it alligned at work and have wheeled pretty hard abotu 15 times so far and everythign is still withign spec.

Bigblock

They are pretty rugged front ends.I put the Downey brace on mine and don't really have any trouble out of it.You can buy a magnetic bubble level almost anywhere and stick it to a hub locker to get your camber pretty close.Set the toe with a tape measure(BTW toe doesn't make it pull caster does).Caster is very hard to set without a machine but if you wheel it hard enough to knock it out of line I wouldn't worry about it.As long as the camber and toe are close it should not wear the tires.Caster doesn't wear tires unless the right and left sides are extremely different.They should be close or the same degree.To answer your second Q-Jack up your truck(both front wheels)Have an assistant turn one tire while you make a line all the way around the tread.Do the other side.Let it down and wiggle the steering wheel making sure it's level str8 ahead.Measure the distance between the lines between the two tires.Go to the rear of the front tires and measure the same.Adjust them until they measure the same.

MudHippy

Specs 87 4runner: 1 1/2 deg.+caster pref.(3/4-2 1/4+acc. range) 2/3 deg.+camber pref.(1/12N-1 5/12+ acc. range) .12-.20" toe in(bias tires), 0-.08" toe in(radial). Yep, do my own. You can, if I can. Quick tip: if runn'n radials no toe in(0"), equal measurement fr/rr of tires, makes that a snap. I do 35x12.5's like this, no problems.

AxleIke

Mud Hippy good to know.

3yotys, also great advice. Looks like i can do some of this myself.

3yotys, chicken lover: I've got a ss brace, and it works well. I'm pushing the LCAs around, meaning that i actually move the truck out of camber when wheeling. I also tend to fatigue the tie rods, etc...I dunno, it's always pulling and driving like crap after wheeling. They always tell me they adjusted camber and toe, and i was taking it in every week.

tc

I had a package at NTB and they did it OK - they worked on it like crazy when I had a bent steering relay rod and finally were like "um something isn't right, we can't get it in".

I think it may just be that particular shop - maybe try a different Firestone? I think there's one here in Longmont...

CJM

I would say bad shop, call the BBB and complain too.

I only take my truck to STS-the one by me is actually the best alignment place I ever used, but they dont offer a lifetime. However unlike crapstone they are an employee owned company and the one by me is managed really well.

Bob_98SR5

mr. ike,

maybe those firestone people purposely jack 4 wheelers b/c they know they are going to be the ones who take the most advantage of the lifetime alignment program? thats my guess based on my experience: https://www.yotatech.com/forums/show...ight=firestone

bob

AxleIke

I am going to try another firestone. Longmont is first on the list.

CJM, you can bet your bottom dollar i'm talking to BBB. I'm calling tommorow. I also called Firestones customer service line and left a polite, but unflattering impression on their "how are we doing" line. They said a manager is going to call me back...fat chance.

Question for those who do home alignments? I'm assuming the alignment must be done at ride height. What do you all use when adjusting camber/toe to allow the wheel to move side to side and in and out while adjusting. I think that is the key right there. Adjust it "pretty good" after wheeling. Align it professionally a few times a year. (if the whole firestone thing still doesn't pan out).

This is all very excellent. Feeling much less like it got screwed with my pants on, and much more like there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

AxleIke

Honestly, this had just come to mind. I got about 4 good alignments from them before they started screwing me. They also told me my frame was bent. Turned out to be frozen camber bolts. Less work to fix, but still, WTF.

The guy at the other shop said that they pull this junk to save time. Adjust toe, call it good. What a bunch of jack offs. The FS guy told me today that toe was my big tire wear part. Told him, thats what you told me on my last set of tires, right before i drove them 6k miles, and completely destroyed them. He shrugged. I'll try the other place, then work on devising a way to do my own alignments.

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

Big advantage of a solid front axle. Unless you bend a tie rod or axle housing, the alignment stays fixed. I check mine every few years, and it takes 5 minutes to set it if it is off:
- http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...html#Alignment

Some info on setting IFS alignment:
- http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/...owTo.shtml#4WD

(look for "Get an alignment!")

MudHippy

Yes, ride height must stay consistent.For Toe.A stiff, perfectly straight, bar/rod/pipe/stick. Have one end = 0, then mark for toe measurement(ex. 0" difference in mark, fr/rr of middle of tires tread, mid tire height=0" Toe In/Out). Caster and camber will require some means of at least est. those angles, mind reeling at the possibilties, plumb bob being the most archaic. Something with a bubble, numbers,lasers, or a digital readout, all the better.

CJM

AxleIke, good luck with at least getting your cash back.

STS like I said has been good to me thus far.

linuxrunner

Look for smaller shops, i have had good luck with one such small shop in portland... they check for alignment and if it is off they charge $50 for a alignment and free "touch ups" for a year.

The first time i went in they said looks fine bye bye. Then i hit a curb at 35mph, brought it back and it was off ( it was obvious ). Since i paid the $50 to get it aligned i have brought it back probably 20 times almost every time after i wheel it hard and they are very nice about it probably 10 times there was no problems, but they have adjusted it 10 time for free true to there word.

taikowaza

Just my 2cents about the firestone lifetime alignment, I bought it about 6 months ago and had my 2nd gen aligned 3 times already. I think that chickenlover's advice on the IFS truss for the 2nd gen is SPOT ON. I personally really recommend the sonoran steel IFS truss over the downey, it is really beefy IMHO. After I got that in there my alignment didn't budge and last time I brought it in it was perfect from the get-go.

they have the laser alignment machines and they are friendly and professional. I think it depends on which firestone you go to, but for the price, (I think I paid less than $100), and the fact that you can get alignments anytime you want, it pays for itself after 2 times.

that said, I totally agree that some firestones won't be any good and will probably wreck your vehicle. this goes for any chain of stores though, I would say that it's a worthwhile investment, just shop around until you find a firestone that you like.

at the end of the day they are an affiliate of Ishibashi, Bridgestone, a major, major japanese multinational. they are the real deal, I feel bad that you found some slackers at your firestone. rest assured that this is not a top-down thing from the japanese zaibatsu, it is a lazy workethic thing from the shop end. If they had adhered to the japanese work ethic they would be in the shop at 6am chanting the bridgestone motto and vowing to serve the customer to the best of their abilities. I have seen this, it is extremely weird but also impressive in a way.

"Okyaku-sama wa kami sama desu! " (customer is god).

www.bridgestone.co.jp

plus, you get to support all the cute Bridgestone girls if you buy a lifetime free alignment! What a bargain!!
included some pics of my 'runner being aligned at the firestone westlake (very good, they let me watch the computer and lasers until everything was very solid back in spec). highly recommend sonoran steel truss. nothing moves!budbuilt skid also keeps the front end solid too

taiko

AxleIke

okay. For the record:

I OWN AND HAVE INSTALLED ON MY TRUCK THE VERY FIRST!!!! AS IN PROTOTYPE!!!! SONORAN TRUSS.

so all of you are copying me

Anyway, yeah, i hear you about there being a difference in the stores. i am going to try the longmont store after i get it done by the real deal. I understand about smaller shops. Prob is, i already paid for the lifetime alignment. true, i've gotten my money out of it, but still, come on, you can't stop doing alignments after it stops being profitable for you. I mean, really, just because i use my truck harder than most, you still advertised a service, and i expect to get the fullest out of it. I feel like after the 3 or 4 times i got a good alignment, they found all types of excuses not to do them anymore.

CJM, what is STS? Don't believe i've ever seen that around, but maybe it stands for something?

ROBLRILEY

I Work At Les Schwab In Spokane And Lead The Alignment/brake Shop. The Downey Truss Is The Best Thing You Can Do For Any 86 To 95 Yota. Toyota Puts A Truss Between The Front Lower Control Arm Mounts But Fails To Put One On The Rear Lower Mounts. Over Time With Off Road Use, Bigger Tires, And Just Age, These Mounts Tend To Spread Apart And Can Only Be Fixed At A Frame Shop. It Will Be Evident If They Spread Apart If You Try To Install The Truss And The Mounts Are Too Far Apart. Anyways, There Is No Les Schwab Close To You (utah Is Closest One) So Get Your Truck Aligned But Most Good Alignment Shops Will Give You A Printout If You Trucks Specs And The Adjustments That They Made. As For Home Alignments, Mark The Positions Of Your Cams After The Alignment Is Dialed In And Check Them After Each Wheeling Trip. Repostion If Needed. These Cams Tend To Rotate Under Harsh Abuse Of If Not Tightened Enough. If They Move Alot, Reset Them And Put A Tack Weld On Each. This Is Extreme But Most Likely Firestone Is Just Not Aligning Your Truck Correctly. By The Way, When You Have It Aligned Set Your Truck To The Height You Want To Leave It At. Don't Mess With The Torsion Bars After That. Every Time You Do, You Mess Up The Alignment. Downeys 26mm Torsion Bars Also Help To Hold Height, Thus Alignment, And Gives You A Better Ride If You Have Cranked In Lift. Any Questions Give Me An Email.