taikowaza

what a day. I need some advice bad.
brought the runner into the dealership even though idle was almost perfect.
I heard there was a really good tech available and made an appointment to have him take a look see at the 3vze and see if he couldn't make the idle 100% rock solid. (it was stumbling just a bit sometimes). I got a call later saying that he had found a vacuum leak due to a tear in an intake hose, which needed to be replaced. "air intake hose' is what he said. I don't have a part number but it costs $99 at the stealer so it must be big.
Ok fine. if there was a hole in it it needs doing.
so I get another call a few hours later saying that after replacing it, there's no power anymore. they ask me the history of the timing belt because they think it is off a tooth, and that somebody had changed it, compensating for the hole in the air tube, and now that there's a new tube the timing belt has to be adjusted.

WHAT? so they want to adjust the timing belt to the tune of several HOURS labor now on what was supposed to be a quick look see...

I called my friend at another dealership and he was questioning if there could have been a vacuum leak at all, maybe misdiagnosis? my idle was NOT fluctuating a lot. it was stable at 800. only a stumble every once in a while, that's it.

WHAT IS GOING ON?? should I have them put my old part back on and just live with the problem? any ideas? I am totally confused and KNOW they are going to charge me up the ^&*^$&%$&%$&

thanks a lot

InternetRoadkill

You want to see the old part to confirm their story (although, they could alter the part to cover their backside). The reality is that you can't 'adjust' the timing belt to compensate for an air leak and still get an engine to run correctly. Ain't going to happen. I would get getting a second opinion from someone outside the stealership.

Just for fun, have them put the old part back on. That should only take a couple of minutes and see what happens. The timing belt could be off, but it's unlikely it was done to compensate. Typically, they need to be off quite a bit to produce a dramatic change in power. My guess is that they left a vacuum line off somewhere when they changed your air tube which is causing the new power loss.

The skipping idle could be from a variety of causes including:
* dirty spark plugs
* faulty plug wire
* dirty fuel injector
* bad sensor (temperature, TPS, or MAF)

taikowaza

thanks internetrk
I appreciate your advice a lot.

just some background-

new plugs new rotor new cap new wires new afm injectors cleaned

do you really think that he would have forgotten to reattach a vacuum line?
I went to the stealer expecting a little expertise and this is what I get.
I am stunned.

the more info that I get tonight the more ammo I will have for my argument tomorrow (I go in at 7am).
thanks a lot everyone.

by the way- do I have to pay for this fiasco? do I have any grounds for refusing to pay? what's the legal situation if they falsely diagnose? can I get them to put things back the way they were, do they charge me labor for fixing their ^%*&^*&

trythis

I hate to say it but if you signed a consent form, your gonna have to pay at least the minimum shop fee. I would ask for the old part, and leave with the vehicle as it is. When they say no power, does that mean it can't drive? I doubt it. If the thing is driveable, take it home with the old part, reinstall it, reinstall the one they installed, and see if it has no power.

Theoretically if your TPS is bad even if the AFM is readin OK, your timing could be off enough to ruin the power output.
If the previous intake leak could have caused the the TPS or AFM to give false readings the timing to be all wacko when it was set last. I would check the TPS before changing ("adjusting") the timing belt. I am thinking if your timing is suddenly off 10 degrees because of the Air flow to throttle ratio misreading, that it would be more likely that it needs to have the timing adjusted.

Is it possible that the timing was off that bad so as to set the belt off one whole tooth? Somone with more knowledge will hopefully chime in.

I would go in tomorrow with the happy student attitude, though. If you go in educated and curious and end up talking to a toyota GURU, you might actually find out the problem is really what they say, and in the long run save a bundle in mielage, and premature engine wear. If it is a funly thing to diagnose, you might end up spending weeks of your life chasing down something he figured out in 15 minutes.

OPn the other hand if they are trying to rip you, they will hardly want to do it if you sound like an educated client that just doesnt have time to do the work, and a nice attitude, will get you a lot better price than coming in hot. Bring donuts!

InternetRoadkill

It's possible it's just a vacuum line off (or some other stupid little thing). It's easy to pull one off accidently without noticing it considering how cluttered engine bays are. But this is just guessing.

Just because it's a dealer doesn't mean their mechanics are any better than joe blow's garage down the street. Some of my worst horror stories are from work done at dealerships. I once took a honda to the dealer to have an electric antenna replaced under warranty. The car came back with a new antenna and a smashed wiring harness which nearly set the car on fire. Changing the antenna required that the fuse box be removed to gain access to the antenna. When they bolted the fuse box back in, they crushed the wires underneath the bolts. It was only discovered after the horn went off by itself while sitting in the garage. As it turns out, the horn wire was in the bundle that was crunched and had shorted out. It was very lucky that horn went off. It was an electrical fire in the making. The dealer tried to deny everything.

Not paying for the work could lead to some legal hassles. At the very least, you're going to be responsible for the new part that was installed. But I would seriously consider asking to talk to service manager to try to resolve your complaint. If that doesn't work, go over his head and talk to the big manager of the whole dealership. If you car comes out worse than it went in, they need to fix it. You should be able to reach some sort of agreement over responsibility for paying for the extra work. They'll likely try to shift blame. Just be firm and stick to the facts.

taikowaza

thanks a lot for this good advice.
I like that happy student attitude stuff, I am usually that way, so I will do my best. WHat I hate though, is the way that we're not allowed to talk to the techs, there are these customer service representatives who are like 'in between' us and the techs. they act like they know what is going on, all dressed up.
they expect you to just nod and pay everything, and hate it when you actually know something.
I won't just nod and drive it home, crippled, when it went in running almost perfect.
well this is a learning experience in a big way. I don't think that I will use the dealership again.
it has been a ÅÅÅÅty day. I think I am going to crash and hope tomorrow will be better.
thanks guys

trythis

I hate teh dealers that have middle men in the service department. Luckily in the oldish dealership in my area, you have to alk into the shop to talk to a service guy. The mechanics are right there.
Good luck.

MUDN4R

hahaha my upper intake boot ripped and i had to get it replaced due to a HORRILBE idle. This little piece of rubber maybe 7 inches long cost 90 BUCKS!!! also i got a locking mechism(not the whole hub, just the part that makes it lock!) for an aisin hub priced cause mine was cracked and it was 180 bucks!

taikowaza

i went in today and thanks to all your advice I was able to get a free rental car out of the bargain while they investigate further.
i told the manager that I wanted it to be running at least as well when it left, and he agreed.
also i said there was no relation between the part replaced and redoing the timing belt at 3.5hours x $100/hour plus tax.

I started the runner and she sounds FINE!????

what is going on???

here are the pics as to the tube that was replaced. it is the one that connects to the throttle body from the FIPK. they charged me $100 for it. it is $50 at 1sttoyotaparts. damn

car is still in the shop. tech will look at it again tomorrow morning and advise.
what should I do?


thoughts???

midiwall

Wow... something's VERY wrong.

Going back to your original post:
If that tear was really on YOUR truck, it would be a lot worse than "stumbling just a bit sometimes". I doubt it would run.

So, reading between the lines of my own statement, I wouldn't think twice about someone having given you a torn hose that they had laying around the shop. That's BUNK. I think you're being taken for a ride.


On top of it, I would raise HELL about them doing the timing belt work. Signed or verbal consent be damned, it's just a wrong diagnosis to think that you could time an engine to get around unmetered airflow.

Astralplane

That hose looks to new to be original except for the tear.
The tear, melt, or excessive clamp pressure on the hose doesn't look right, is your intake system modified?
I paid $60 for a new one around 3 years ago.
It tore while taking it off the trottle body. Stuck because of the heat of the throttle body.
Your tear looks to be the other end where heat is not an issue.

taikowaza

dude, this is toyota of seattle. they are supposed to be good.
so, basically, what I have is,
a huge tear that may or may not have been there when I took my truck in.
A part that costs $50 that I am getting charged $99 for.
1/2 hour installation for that ($50)
A $50 inspection fee.

Also, tax on everything.

next, a diagnosis that I need to have my timing belt redone as it is off a tooth and someone had overcompensated due to that hole.

Is this the same part that could have been replaced with the ISR mod?
is this what I should do?

in the meantime, I will wait for the tech's explanation tomorrow and I will post it. keep your eye on this post if you are interested...I'll need to make a decision tomorrow about 730am pacific.thanks again
I am getting RA&(D
never should have brought it in.
what's the verdict on the 2nd gen isr mod with FIPK
thanks

midiwall

I'll give you a slight inside line on that... The majority of the shop is gone. Management screwed up HUGE and people left. One of their top aces (possibly "the" top ace down there) is now in Kirkland.


Well, you wanted it to be perfect which is commendable, and you had the reasonable expectations of not being taken for a ride. Unfortunately, things just aren't adding up here.

taikowaza

mark-
who is that top ace in kirkland?
I am working with *****.
I heard he was the best.
when I got the call that he had found a tear, I was saying to myself "cooL! this is going to take care of everything!"

then the service agent calls with his singsong about 3hours+ on timing belt.
got enraged and had to invoke my super breathing techniques! thank goodness for martial arts calming skillz

Elvota

I am by no means an expert, but on a 22RE I had before, the intake hose tore in the same place. The vehicle would almost die when a bump or torque would twist the hose and open the tear, but would pretty much run fine at other times. So, I suppose a small tear could be the source of your original, intermittent problem.

Could this mechanic (or other) show you the timing with a timing light? I mean, you could even pick a timing light up and check it yourself. It seems if the belt was off the timing marks would really back up that theory and be well beyond any adjustment one could acheive with rotation of the distributor.

When you install the belt, you use physical marks on the pulleys, so only when the engine was back together would one realize poor performance. If whoever missed the hole in the intake and adjusted the belt to try and compensate... that would be a lot of re-work (remove covers, belt, re-do and guess a tooth forward) and I would think impractical... but I am sure stranger things have happened.

I replaced my intake hose with some parts from Home Depot. I know it's laughable, but has worked really well for 6 plus months on road and off in the AZ heat.. and it's cheap. Here is a pic.



Anyway, it's a piece of pre-bent electrical conduit, some plumbing couplers, a K&N filter plus a ricer filter adapter from AutoZone. Without the filter, I think it was like $35 in parts at the most. I used the stock MAF. Might have gained some HP, but definetly gained a growl at low RPM's... if that is a good thing.

taikowaza

I like the look of your 3vze-
you have some wiring different than in my engine-
what is the blue one along the back, and do you have a turbo kit in there or something?
nice work

I am getting shafted on $100 for the air intake tube.
totally. even the isr mod is only $75

what is the policy, once something is on, will they take it off?

mr toytech

i work at a dealer in kc and unless its an electrical part they can and will take it off and not be charged for it at your request. and like stated before w/ that hole in the intake tube the truck would not have ran at all. my 84 supra had a smaller hole burnt threw it from my header and it wouldnt even start, let alone drive anywhere. take it from an honest as can be dealer tech there is definitly something wrong with there storey. and if they really want to keep your buisness they would let you in the shop to talk to the tech or show you your truck and whats wrong w/ it. at least where i work they would and if it were me i certainly would be more than willing to do it to keep you as my customer. but obviously they dont think that way.

Elvota

The blue line is for my ARB locker. I'll wait for the 3.4 swap for more power I think.

I have actually refined my intake mod and need to take some updated pics. Made the layout cleaner, simpler.

I wonder if the intake tore when they removed it... stuck on with the miles/ heat like mentioned above. My tear was in the bellows, and some how it did still run at the end, enough to get me home. Didn't even really stutter once off the dirt (where it must have torn) and back on the road. I did replace it right away though.

Truly hope you get things worked out with this dealer.

wrenchmonster

You're getting a bunk story, period. Somewhere there is a communication breakdown of what is REALLY going on, or the tech isn't worth his salt. I'd be curious as to HOW the tech determined the timing belt was off a tooth.

If the truck ran well before you took it in, and now it doesn't, it seems like there is something very simple that is being missed. The replaced hose shouldn't negatively effect the idle to the point where the rig has no power. In fact, it would have ran terribly, if at all, with the presence of the hole.

The long and short of it is, I sincerely doubt the timing belt is the problem. By the way I'm an ASE master tech with over 10 years experience.

taikowaza

Here is the last communication from the dealership, I think this is the final word on the issue. I changed representatives...I feel better about her...she is cool...
but check out the diagnosis. all I know is that I am not going to let them get experimental on my 4runner, go in, maybe change the timing, then maybe it is another issue, more downtime, more hours of labor...no way.
PLEASE send feedback on this issue. would you have this work done?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

it has been a mad house today. I apologize for not getting this to you sooner. We checked the engine idle speed. It was at 950 rpm’s and fluctuating. Found the air induction tube damaged and torn. From the rough idle the air induction tube has been doing a lot of moving with the idle issue. This has more than likely attributed to the torn air induction tube. Age would be another factor with the part. Hot cold, wet and dry over time plays a huge part as you know.
We replaced the air induction tube, because of it being torn. We eliminated that from the puzzle. The idle is still rough.
**** checked the timing. It is at 25 degrees before top dead center. Specification is 10 degrees before top dead center.
***** set the timing to 10 degrees btdc as needed. Road tested and vehicle does not have any power. What that tells *****
Is that more than likely (because we cannot see in there because of the cover) is that the timing belt very well may be off one tooth on the gear. Our experience, mine included is that it is probable that whomever installed the timing belt installed it with one tooth off to possibly cover up an issue????????? We will not know until we can go in and look. What I have seen before is there could be more pieces to this puzzle once the timing belt is corrected. We will not know until we try.
****, I myself have 32 years experience in this crazy business. I have not seen it all but what I do know is that ***** is at the top of his game and I personally trust him. I know this is totally your decision.
Look forward to hearing from you. I have taken over on your 4 runner.