The great thing about the 3vz-e is the fuel rail is massive...
I am guessing its due to the fact that its run on batch injection so it needs more flow, but if you were ever to go standalone and make it full sequential injection you could throw very large injectors on there with no pressure drop. Im looking for a set for my 5vz-fe

 

Weasy, how large of injectors are you talking about? 600cc's? 800cc's? I'm throwing in some 315cc 7mge injectors, but there's always room for bigger injectors and more boost of course.

 

2500 can put quite a dent on a 7MG-TE swap or completely cover a 3.4L swap. It also covers just under 1/2 the price of a diesel swap. Is it really worth it for the 60 HP gain?

 

Well I think of it this way. Sure, I can spend $500 more for a 5vz-fe swap, but I will have a much lower power potential right away. So then it will take another $2500 for a turbo kit or the TRD supercharger to get back to the same power potential of the motor I already have installed. $5500 for a 5vzfe swap with a turbo or s/c added on is not in my budget.

My motor is in good condition, it runs fine. So why swap it out for something newer when the only difference is a higher base power level. They are both going to be forced induction eventually anyway. Why not go with the less labor and cheaper method of turboing my current motor?

The way that I am doing my turbo is completely non-specific to my motor, meaning I can put anything from a 22re to a small block chevy and still keep all the turbo parts to put on the new motor swapped in.

 

you always seem to say exactly what I'm thinking... Yeah, 50HP is quite alot to get out of a motor without changing the fuel delivery system... a mild Turbo more importantly will give you more torque, and better daily drivability for us 22R/RE users. Going up steep grades in 4wd, or even in 2wd on some grades cause's me to have to shift an awful lot, a turbo would defiantely make the engine capable of pulling these hills in 4th if not 5th... I wonder how well the 4cyl rear end would hold up to a turbo kit... I'd love to get into one fo these, but I really don't want to have to start swapping axles out at the same time..

 

Fairly mundane motors without the turbo? Yes, the motors are stout but they are built to be used with the turbo. Take the turbo(s) off of these motors and they will run like poo because of the low compression.

btw, wait until toysrme gets on. He will have some fun with this thread. I can already see it.

 

toysrme?

 

Yeah, had a loss of memory.

 

yea i just wanted to know if we though abou thte same person or there was someone else with that name.

 

I figured Ill bring this thread back to the top. People, we can do this with less than 1500 invested. HP gains? Anythign from 50hp to 150hp pending how crazy you want to get.

that TO4e-50 with a T3 a/r .63hotside would be ideal from what im seeing to achieve 250 crank hp. That equates out to about 200rwhp on the 3vze auto guys and about 210rwhp for the manual trannys....

so figured 100 hp for about 1500 invested. At 15bux / hp that's about 10x cheaper per hp than headers or exhaust....

Food for thought.

 

I have trouble believing the 3.0's stock fuel system (injectors, fuel pump) could keep up with 7 lbs of boost... It seems likely the engine would run into problems similar to a supercharged 3.4 with no additional mods.

Does this kit come with some sort of piggyback unit? Because if not, there's an extra $600 to make sure you don't ping your engine to death. I think $1500 is an overly optimistic estimate. This may be about how much you need for just the turbo system, but plan on adding the equivalent of a URD fuel kit into the mix, plus tuning hardware like O2 sensors, perhaps a total of $2000 more.

 

A good starting rule of thum is for every ATM you increase you double power. Well 1 ATM is 14.7psi, so 7psi I would guess about 70hp increase.

Turbos are great, to me they are way better than a S/C... they only make boost when needed, and with a good wastegate can be turned off when you dont want them, or tuned for the best economy on the freeway.

I really want to do a turbo to my 22re, but cant convice myself to go to a stand alone fuel injection.. its so nice having a turnkey motor.. and it runs pretty darn good, should run much better after the rebuild. It gets me 19-22 mpg w/35's and not really that bad....

 

Well if I were to market a kit then yes it would be in the 2000 range simply to make a profit, however if you use ebay and make things yourself its MUCH cheaper!

Doing the math, the 200cc injectors could support 204hp on their own at 85% duty cycle. With a mere boost switch you can kick on the cold start injector which is 135cc and that's another 27hp. So 233hp can be supported with a nice margin of safety. So if your target is less then 225hp your OEM fuel system can suffice, just invest in a boost switch, a universal FPR to keep the pressure up and whola the fuel system is taken care of.

For cooling you have WMI, this can be set up for about 100 bux total in parts and it will do a BETTER job than an intercooler will. And the 100bux includes a water level switch to illuminate an LED when it gets low...

By far the biggest expense is the turbo itself (about 200 or so from ebay if internally wastegated,) a wideband o2 at 200-300, and an EGT gauge which is about 90 shipped.

Now for a low power appl. like that the T04e-50 would probably be just a hair large. Add a MBC and you can have from 150hp to more than 200hp.

Anything more than about 200-225, pending what the wideband o2 says, and yes a piggy back will be needed which is about 400-700 pending what you get....

If I had more time Id post everythign ive found and needed but i have to go meet the ex-girlfriend...


ps - doing the math on greddy's site to make 250bhp with a VE of 0.7, 181ci displacement, with a 5800 rpm redline, and a 95*F AIT using WMI, the engine will need to flow 27.4lbs of air / min with a p1/p2 ratio of just under 2.0. Then at peak torque of 3800rpm should flow about 19.4lbs air/min at 2.0 so the T04e50 fits perfectly. The one issue is if i used a VE too low...

BUT I am anything but an expert so please feel free to correct me.

 

I don't recall off the top of my head how the cold start injector is setup in the manifold as I haven't owned a 3.0L in a while, but are you sure the fuel will be evenly distributed across all 6?

From experience, a hobbs switch and/or fuel pressure regulator can take care of the turbo at a specific load/throttle setting. You certainly could tune it successfully at WOT. At alternate RPM, partial throttle, etc, your results may be less than optimal. These types of solutions ARE better than no fuel control at all, but just have reasonable expectations.

The way to do this right is full fuel control via piggyback or ECU replacement.
I've found one post of successful megasquirt of the 3.0L toyota motor via Ford EDIS for spark.. But it hasn't been a common deal. Ford EDIS uses a degree wheel on the crank pulley and is a fairly universal system. Megasquirt can do both fuel and spark in this situation... However, it won't work with the stock AC pull up or tach without modification and it's tuning isn't for the faint of heart.



Are you plumbing this into the exhaust system after the manifolds?
Put too low on the motor it will require an oil return pump.
Estimated expenses for fabricating the turbo mount, modifing the exhaust system, using quality oil feeds, welding the oil pan, and plumbing an oil return? Most people can't do this work.

You can get good quality Garrett turbos inexpensively as the US market has been flooded by import trash.


That's 150-200 additional hp?
That's not a realistic expectation for a stock NA compresson motor on pump gas, IMHO.


I'm no 3.0 expert either, but I'd love to see this actually implemented.. I think a moderate power 3.0L could be a possibilty, but without real engine management, I'm not sure what the drivability would be like...

 

Oh BooHoo. The 3.0 issues are easily fixed and with its bottom end and a 3vzfe crank its perfect for FI. Even with just what you can get from EB you can have the 3.0 purrin like a kitten and snappin like a tiger.

All the talk of swaps is kinda over simplifying things, I priced out a 3.4 for my truck and its at least $5000 to do right then add the TRD blower and all the other things that go along with making it work right and your in for at least as much likely more then just working with the 3.0 and dependablity will be the same. Only swap I'd consider is a late model Toyota Diesel.

All those people who complain about the 3.slow should put a 22re in their runner and know the real meaning of slow.

 

My two bits: who gives a rat's hole about HP gain -- it's the torque gain that truely gives a turbo its glory. Horsepower happens as a nice result. Speaking of Subarus, the engineers tuned the turbo 2.5L Forester for more low end drivable torque and that box still did 60 mph in the mid-five second range (Car and Driver tested it). A boxy, AWD small SUV running stride for stide with Camaros, BMWs or whatever.

 

No no 150 hp to 200hp total is what i meant not additional. lol

I suck at communicating...lol Honestly I wouldnt use the cold start injector in my setup Im planning for my truck. However ive been told it would work, but I dunno first hand. I was planning on an SMT6 with a MAP and 550cc injector to take care of the fuel issue and a FPR. Wide band O2 sensor of course, and WMI as I suggested earlier. Turbo im going to run right there on the drivers side but was seriously giving consideration to a custom turbo flange to accomplish this. There is a pressurzied oil fitting just below the OPS, that can feed the turbo oil, and was planning on using a drill to knock a hole inthe oild pan and then JBwelding a fitting to my oil pan, either that or a threaded fitting to the pan. Steel plumbing would be relatively easy from that point on and I was thinking about keeping the VAFM for now with a blow through setup....

Total power goal would be 250 hp, with some potential to say "HI" to 300hp with 100 octane and some more boost pending what the compressor map looks like and how the engine reacts...

 

I'm in no way flaming you guys but why put all that energy and cash into a turbo when you could have a switchable blower @6psi for a hell of a lot less?

pick up a previa one like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/94-97...spagenameZWDVW

Or even a mercedes one.

and maybe $1k in parts and labour. Even if you had the SC rebuilt your're looking at under $2k with a proven system.

 

Can you really just turn on the cold-start injector? Is it just like a regular fuel injector, or is it more of an on/off thing? I think the cold start injector is more of an on-off thing for dumping lots of fuel to start the engine, not sure it would work very well if you are depending on it for power... It's a pretty cool idea because it's basically a built-in 7th injector, but why don't 3.4 guys do this? Does the 3.4 have a cold start injector?

IMO, an intercooler works much better than WMI, heck the most convincing reason to get a turbo or turbine-style supercharger over a roots-type is because of the possibility of intercooling. But more importantly, I don't understand how you would make a WMI set-up for under $100, when the URD one costs $1000 for a kit with mappable controller, and even the cheapest one that's basically just the essentials is $600

Wideband O2 that has accurate readings with a gauge will be more like $300-400... semantics

To get the engine running correctly with any kind of boost would necessitate a piggyback IMO.

hey, you obviously know a lot more about this than I do, I'm just curious because forced induction is fun

 

My first post wasnt very well thought out honestly. I was trying to show how cheap the system could be, while trying to get dressed and ready to meed my ex....which didnt go very well at all....

The Cold Start injector, I dont think that 5vz-fe's have....but im not sure on that. Toysrme256th thinks that the 3vze has more than enough fuel to support 3-4psi before any additional fuel would be needed. This would allow a nice 14.7:1 under boost condition at cruise which would pick up a few mpgs. And that point the boost switch could trip the cold start injector...

The joy of WMI is that it is more effective than an intercooler as far as I understand it, when you start leaving a compressor wheel's efficiency ranges things start heating up FAST. For example on a 6.5L turbo diesel (396ci v8) using a GM4 turbo, at OEM boost pressure of about 5psi outflow is generally around 130*F. Bump it up to 10 psi and the turbo's outflow is in the 215*F range. At 15+psi its in the 300+ range. With WMI a lot of the guys are dropping those inlet temps to very low 100s...The guys that add intercoolers though are only getting down to about 130s and 140s...

Now WMI cost. Use the windshield washer reservoir for your tank and add a water level switch for about 10 bux. The 150gph@100psi pump will set you back about 70 bux. Tubing, fittings, one way 22psi check valve should be about 30-35, then you have the 10 dollar 4gph nozzle which is about 9 bux. Now the issue with this system is that you can run out of water and that its on or off and no inbetween using a boost switch so it kicks on at 2 psi. If you wanted to get really fancy smancy you could use an electronic boost controller and use the switch to turn off all boost. This would alleviate any issues if you dont see the LED glowing showing a low level.

One thing to add timing retard/advance would have to be covered by either moving the timing back onthe distributor to 0*BTDC or through the use of an aftermarket boost based timing retard.



suprathepeg - that supercharger would cost 200 and would need a rebuild and essentially cost about the same as a turbo. Using a MBC in the cab one can turn off a turbo system as well. Im not downing your idea at all just saying its 6 of 1 and 1/2 dozen of the other. In reality I wouldnt want to give this engine more than about 3 to 4 psi without sufficient mods for a nice safety margin.


ps - with the T04e-50 compressor I was figuring about 15psi to achieve 250hp....and yeah my first tank when I do this is going to be 110 octane for a WIDE saftey margin. Who knows maybe the truck will decide to give itself the "block window mod," the first time it hits boost. If so a 350 RAMJET crate and 4l60e wil go in....lol