Trainwreckinseattle

Ok I have read volumes of threads and posts here and on other sites about oil consumption after a rebuild of the 22R / 22RE engine.

This thread is my attempt to ascertain why a certain type of ring seems to fail at an astounding rate. This ring type would be a Chrome type. My personal experience is with the DJ ROCK Products ring pack.

PLEASE DON'T POST speculation. If you have FIRST HAND knowlege with FIXING this problem Great I'm sure a lot of people would love to hear it.

First some facts:

1: I have rebuilt probably 200 85-95 22R/22RE engines
2: Cast rings seem to have NO problems sealing but don't have the life span of chrome.
3: ROCK rings have a chrome top ring
4: I have aprox. 10 engines that have failed rings after switching to these rings.

All engines were FULLY rebuilt, some with new head castings.

Most of these engines I personally installed. If they were EFI the check engine codes were the first thing to be addressed usually before the old engine was removed. All engines ran perfect when they left my shop. And still do even while consuming 1 quart per 200 miles driven.

The symptoms:

0-400 Miles: Black oil, strange color black with a slight metalic clear base. seamingly no consumption.
400-800 Miles: Quite metalic in color, looks like very used diesel oil, slight oil consumption noticed (1/8 quart)
800-1,200 Miles: This is where it usually happens. Sudden loss of at least 1 quart, followed by at least 1 quart per 200-400 miles therafter. Never does the oil appear lite brown like it should.

Uppon tear down everything looks normal, some of the engines had 10,000 miles before tear down. Spark plugs look normal, great compression (170-180 lbs) bore looks fine, the only thing wrong is HEAVY build up of ashy carbon on tops of the pistons, and on exhaust valve.

I have talked with MANY other machine shops nobody has a clue but most were quick to jump on the brand of rings used. I personally DON'T think there is an inherent problem with this type of ring. I personally believe these rings simply need some type of special procedure that I'm missing or skipping to function properly.

The process:

1: Hot tank
2: Bore
3: Final Hone using JHU-820 sunnen stone
4: Hot tank
5: Check ring gap
6: lightly oil using regular 10-30 oil. I simply wipe down the bores with a cloth rag and small amount of oil.
7: Install rings on piston and hang

I have switched to another ring set which solved the problem but I'm the kind of person who is going to spend a lot more time on this problem simply because I want to know what happened. I have an EFI truck that I'm using for testing different procedures. I'm on attempt #4 in this truck to try and get these chrome rings to seat.

I'd love to hear from anyone that has step by step procedures for these rings.

Trainwreckinseattle

Some side notes. The problem IS NOT

PCV valve
Type of oil
Running condition of vehicle
Type of spark plug

I've changed all of these in an attempt to solve this problem.

Also, nothing should need to be added to seat rings like soap, seafoam, etc.

Trainwreckinseattle

Also I have heard, first hand that these Rock rings were NPR rings. While they may be manufactured by NPR these are not standard issue NPR rings.

First Rock rings say ROCK on them. They look nothing like the ring that came in a NPR box that I ordered. NPR rings do look EXACTLY like OEM.

snobdds

I am getting ready to do a rebuild and I was going to use EB's full rebuild kit, which has the Rock products. I have never heard about this issue before with the chrome rings not seating. So I am really going to watch how this thread progresses.

Just out of curiosity, what are OEM rings made out of and would they be a better choice for this part of the rebuild?

DeathCougar

iTrader: (23)

If people want to follow along, cool. Unless someone has specific factual knowledge in this area, lets keep off topic stuff out of this particular thread.

Trainwreckinseattle

Thank you DC. To be very specific, I'd really like to get to the bottom of this industry wide "mystery" That being said I really want to hear from machine shops or engine builders who have actually made this ring type (chrome top ring like NPR) or this exact ring pack (Rock) WORK. How did you do it? specifically !!

Thanks in advance !!!

thook

Have you tried talking with Ted (I forget his last name at the moment) or Todd at engnbldr? They use a lot of Rock products and have seen a lot of pro shop mechanical conundrums.

Trainwreckinseattle

I have talked to ROCK directly, which resulted in no real information gain.

No I havent talked with them, maybe they can add some information to this topic by posting in this thread?

thook

Worth a shot! Good luck. I'd say he's more of an authority on this than anyone "I know of" around here.

gbwsaw28

I'm currently rebuilding a *rebuild* that never had a chance. The engine had rings that are stamped TAE, I don't know much this brand.
Anyway to tell if chrome top ring or not. I've heard shiny doesn't mean chrome here.

Anyone have a good online source of OEM rings?

Thanks in advance

Trainwreckinseattle

NONE ****** OOPS I MENT 10 ******

So yes that would be a 100% failure rate.

Trainwreckinseattle

Furthermore, I have built 4 engines (with these rings) after knowing of this problem, trying different techniques and they have also failed.

Trainwreckinseattle

Over the years I have built *about 200 engines

For the first many years I have used a few different brands.

I then recently switched to DJ Rock products brand rings. All 10 engines built for customers failed. Plus 4 more I built and installed into my own Toyota trying to test other methods but still using Rock rings.

I have now switched to a different brand again (for production engines) , which has solved the oil consumption problem with engines I sell. But still does not clear up the procedures needed to make Chrome (Rock brand) rings seat and function properly.

thook

I just reread this thread. I understand you're insistance on the matter that no one post speculation, so I will not......though, I am curious and do have some ideas.

Anyway, I should've replied before that sending a private message to engnbldr (Ted) may result in his appearance. But, calling would probably be better. If you do get him and get some answers, would you mind sharing the info here? Maybe Ted will even have time to post.

thook

BTW, it does seem odd that a company wouldn't be willing to add some clarification to a professional shop using their products. Kinda fishy, if you ask me.

Trainwreckinseattle

Personally for the benifit of all the people who frequent this site or search the interweb I'd much rather have as much posted in one uncluttered coherent thread that gets right to the crux of the problem.

I'm not new to engines, or 22R's but can't seem to get these to work. So my quess was many other people have had a problem too. Well after some searching here and other places I have found MANY people to have this exact same problem.

The really sad thing is MOST machine shop type people just give up, switch to cast rings and never know exactly what, why, who, etc so they really have no answer to the chrome ring mystery. Worse yet is they tend to blame the customer if there is a failure of this type. I'm GOING to find the answer if it takes me to the ends of the earth.

Someone has to know why it happens and either know exactly the reason. Or at least has a set of known good steps to follow that allows "magically" these rings to seat. I'd prefer the reason though.

Trainwreckinseattle

Update:

At this point I have identified around 20 people on this website whom have also had this exact problem. I have sent a pm to some of them who I believe might be able to best help me in my quest. I have heard back and will hopefully learn quite a bit from 2 of them at this time.

As suggested I have also sent a detailed Email to "Engnbldr" in hopes that they might have some specific information to add here. I'm hopefull.

engnbldr

>>>*Morning!

It took me 26 minutes to get this site open, lord I hate dialup. All we can get at this location though, I am way down on my Newport ranch.

I hope my phone call today was helpful, and hopefully you can supply us with a sample of concern so I can inspect personally, then send them to engineering. They will do an analysis and report back to me with their opinion.

That is part of what I really like about Rock Products, they are very quick to get on top of any concerns and try to correct if they find one. (It helps that I have the USA Rep's home phone number, too....

First, we supply a Moly type top ring, they are not Chrome. Chrome is typically only used in dirty or dusty conditions, like tractors and the like, although many OEM's including Toyota used a Chrome top ring back in the early designs prior to 1985.

The manufacturer we have used for years is NPR, they make rings for just about every "brand" on the planet and many OEM's. Note they also have a House Brand, those will appear different than those made to spec for other brands. Same maker though, although I concede it's been a couple of years since I even looked in one of our boxes.

Trust me, after reading your report that is EXACTLY what I am going to do when I get to our warehouse next Tuesday.

Now one thing I do know, it the last 45 years that I spent building powerplants, I have never had a "bad" set of rings that I didn't know about as soon as I opened the box. Metalurgy is consistant throughout the industry and down to an art form in today's world. A large percentage of the time any real difference in product will be the color of the box and the logo on it. NPR produces at least 30 different designs that I am aware of and probably more, there are bevel face, stepped face, square cut, wire reinforced oil screens, on and on. Different "brands" simply request a spec and they make them.

NPR is one of the very best manufacturers in the world, in MHO.

Moly rings do require some added machinist skill to make seal properly. The material is very soft, so honing is done to size using a coarse grit, I personally use 280 grit under flood of honing oil, the reduce the flow to form a fine slurry, reduce the honing pressure and plateau with that same 280 grit. This creates a very fine final plateau, which offers good sealing combined with oil retention for lubrication.

Without proper lubrication, the bores burnish very quickly and the engine will consume oil.

Diamond tooling and others require different techniques, my method works for me and always has, even though some think I am crazy.

*Probably right, too, but my way works.

Too fine a finish pattern with little or no peaks and valleys in the underlying pattern will cause a bore to burnish. If it does, the engine will consume oil for as much as 30-40K before finally wearing in. Too coarse of a finish and the results are very quick.

Chrome rings require a rather coarse finish to seat properly

Many machinists prefer a pure iron ring, those will seat and seal up no matter how sloppy the bore finish is. That is an advantage, but iron rings have a much poorer service life than Moly, plus they will withstand far less heat.

One other condition we see now and then is a rich condition. This causes "washing", in which case the engine's bore will burnish in quickly and cause excess oil consumption. There is no fix for this except to rehone the bores and replace the rings.

Most engine rebuilders do prefer iron, I happen to prefer moly, when all is correct they will still be sealed up at 300K, Iron normally is done at 100K or less.

One other thing to check is the final hone pattern angle. 30° is correct, and important.

I do want you to know that I am extremely concerned with your report and will investigate, although as I mentioned, we have 3 reports of concerns in the last 12 months and we supply one heck of a LOT of ring sets.

My check with our supplier showed they also have three reports of piston ring concerns since January 1st, all of them Mitsubishi. (Those folks think 30# boost is "normal"...*LOL**)

The gentleman you spoke to at tech is not tech, that is our friend Keith. He is a counterman at RJT, an area warehouse. He is also a former machinist and a good one in my opinion but he is incorrect on the metalurgy. (At least I think so at this point anyway, I got no system changes or product updates showing any change from what we have supplied for well over a decade.)

My advice is to switch to iron type rings until I can figure out what the problem is, we aren't seeing any abundance of concerns in the system and since I post my email address on our website, I would think I would be getting quite a few.

Meanwhile, please email me personally for info/updates, much as I like this website, it doesn't like my dialup system here......*EB

thook

Dang. That's one heck of a reply.

Trainwreckinseattle

I can't express how much I appreciate the time you took to respond to me both here and by a personal phone call. Thank you.

I will edit my chrome ring comments when we hear back conformation. Sometimes sales people get things mixed up.

Again thank you.