MortonPhotographic

Oh, and BTW, I don't know about you guys, but talking this stuff through and getting advice from people like you all REALLY helps me figure stuff like this out.

Thanks people of Yotatech!!!

mcm375

How are things going with this?

I have the exact same problem with my truck, complete rebuild (although I did it all myself.) I also used parts from engnbldr.

My truck's saga (stolen, ditched, stolen again, ditched over winter with windows down, found by police, returned... ) is a painful one...

Now that I have it back and have cleaned it up over the past couple of weeks (still need to gut the interior) I want to tackle my oil burning issue again.

My symptoms were:

* Oil turning black within 60-100 miles
* Oil consumption (from memory around one quart a week ~ 360 miles)
* Oil pooling in intake runners (in spite of eliminating the PCV setup and going with breathers in an attempt to isolate the possibility of PCV introducing excessive oil to the intake)
* Extremely rich at 75%+ throttle on original EFI setup
* Good compression test
* Excellent leakdown test (<5% on all cyls)
* Detonation at WOT and load even with retarded timing

I then installed and setup a Megasquirt DIYPNP setup with wideband o2 feedback and addressed the fueling issue, but the oil consumption and smoke at-throttle-after-idle continues. I am running e85 at this time and have addressed the detonation issues with advanced timing.

Additional data points and suspicions

* Block was decked and bored
* Leading suspicion is valve guides or valve seals
* Possible cause (to be ruled out by pulling head) is minor piston/valve interference due to excessive block decking and lack of clearance
* Have not tried to measure compression ratio, but my thought is that it is probably far too high hence the detonation on Gasoline.

Planning on pulling the head some time in coming weeks.

"G"

I'm going to say it's a combination of low quality parts, not using OE parts and incorrect machining techniques, tolerances as well as incorrect assembly.

mcm375

Don't forget phase of moon or political party in office...

In all seriousness I do have doubts about the machine shop that did my work -- they trashed my original block by helicoiling one of the head bolt/stud holes on an angle -- and I did measure a bit larger (cold) piston to bore clearance than I would have liked to which they responded "oh we build all of our engines loose, that's how 22REs run best" or some nonsense.

But, at this stage, I think it's worth pulling things slowly apart and documenting what I see. Have been reading up on some pretty interesting conditions regarding valve stem seals, including one chap who had a high lift camshaft that caused the underside of the spring retainer to kiss the top of the valve stem seals, eventually smashing them apart to the extent that they exited the valve spring and found their way down into the oil pan!

I'll take some photos on the way so we can at least document what's going on.

P.S., great photos in this thread... finally a car/truck guy who is a photographer shows us how its done.

1idriver

I have seen a lot of people these days that are still following the rebuild techniques that they learned in high school. I would be too if i hadnt seen that method fail. Im referring to wet builds.
use assembly lube/moly on bearings and lightly on contact surfaces, but dont use anything more than wd40 on the cylinder walls and rings. me and my brother ride dirtbikes like most of you. after the first rebuild on his 450 it smoked and he could not stand it. after looking around and not finding any answers as to why it smoked. even thumpertalk didnt have any answers except that all perfomance bikes smoke. my brother ran into a street bike mechanic that mainly built performance engines for race bikes. he said the key failure was using lube on the rings because it kept them from cutting perfect grooves in the walls.
we tore the top end down again and put new rings in and lighly honed the cylinder. the bike smoked for 20 seconds and never again. since we started building this way we have had no issues with smoking.

I am just finishing up the rebuild on my truck. finishing hooking up wires today, hopefully no issues.

So if this sounds like I am talking down to anybody. I dont mean to but I know i have that tone sometimes. this was a new thing to me and i see guys all the time that i went to highschool with that still do this and cant settle with smoke. I cant. most of you are way more experienced than me with all of this. I cant wait to start posting about my truck.

mcm375

Have the Valve Cover and exhaust manifold off.

Here is what I see so far. Looking for thoughts on the last image, and apologies for the poor photo but it's as good as I could get while holding a flashlight with my mouth and a mirror in the other hand... (I have rotated the image so it is "upright", the top of the image is the top of the port.)

General pic of the valvetrain:



Best pic I could get of the valve stem seals. Not much to look at w/ the springs on... Not sure how far down they are supposed to be seated. They are definitely not all the way down onto head (where the shims sit.)

This head was pre-assembled for me, and I did not disassy to inspect so I have no records indicating how they were seated:



Keep in mind this is the exhaust port: To me, the wetness must be oil seeping down from the valve guide/seal and being blown towards the exhaust port exit. Two of the four exhaust ports exhibit this wetness. Do you guys consider this to be definitive evidence of bad valve stem seals (or guides)? Or is there _any_ other way oil could be introduced into the exhaust port without being burned... e.g., remaining wet.

1idriver

id go with stem seals. thats really about the only way unless your getting that much oil into the engine. oil going bad the quick though kinda stumps me bud. The general rule we use when that happens is to run seafoam in the fuel tank, dump another bottle in the oil and disconnect the vacuum line that goes to the power steering pump use it to suck another bottle in through the intake just to make sure everything is clean. but seeing as how you did it yourself you know its clean.

the last trick is one my dad taught me when i was 10. if it smokes. run sum ajax through the engine. it forces but rings to cut new grooves. it cuts engine life down but the engine will never smoke after that. i do not suggest this.

i hope i do not run into this issue as I literally have the same build as you. i bought the same kit except i do not have nearly as nice of motor or setup as you. my intake was plagued from a bad pcv so its coated. i wonder if maybe the power steering is leaking into the intake and causing this issue because the vacuum for the power steering is right at the 1 and 2 port on the intake manifold. since its ATF it might be penetrating the seals and assisting the leak. see how much moisture you have in that line. you should have any but its all that makes sense to me.

mcm375

Intake plenum is bone dry.

Intake runners are bone dry down to the lower runner part, where oil can be seen to pool...

Thinking I have several bad (not properly seated? split?) seals on both intake and exhaust side, AND/OR incorrect valve stem to guide clearance.

Does anyone know much about checking valve stem to guide clearance WITHOUT the use of a small hole bore gauge? I have a 0-1" mic for the stem, but do not have a bore gauge capable of measuring small bores like the guides... Is there a method by which the deflection of the valve stem within the bore can be measured (e.g., with a dial indicator, which I have available)?

EDIT: Found this site, anyone have "wobble method" measurements for the 22RE? (NB: I do have the engnbldr head w/ oversized valves... not sure if these are different-than-stock valve stem & guide diameters...)

Another link w/ diagram... suggesting 0.010 to 0.015 deflection w/ valve off seat by 1/4"

"G"

Is their smoke coming out of the dipstick when you remove it while the engine is running?

mcm375

Never looked... but I do recall a long time ago removing the oil fill cap while running and placing a sheet of paper over it to "measure" (in some respects) blow by. It was minimal. No smoke I recall. Definitely would have been alarm bells if there had been... Leakdown was < 5% on all cyls (though admittedly that says nothing about the state of oil control rings.)

NB that the only time this motor smoked was after idling for some time then opening the throttle... really points to the classic high vacuum/valve stem seal oil suction problem.

Getting closer to the head coming off... just a few more things to pull off... unhook fuel, couple of coolant lines, zip tie the timing chain/sprocket so it doesn't fall down etc... then all will be revealed! :-D

mcm375

Got the head off, had a look in the intake ports, all show sign of oil.

Took the intake valve out for the port that looked the worst (had oil running down the valve just like the prior exhaust valve pic) and here's what she looks like:



I'm no expert in diagnosing these things based on visuals but to me that looks like the guide is not the right size for the valve stem and the thing has been thrust on a small angle by the rocker. Extensive oil/carbon build up on the head as well.

Here's the valve seat and guide orifice from the bottom up, note the oil:

circustrainer

Just had a new rebuild put in my truck and it does the same smokin thing. Only when I am going down hill and step on it. I never notice at any other time. I have read all the posts and it looks like the valve guides are a problem. Thanks for all the posts and pics .The amount of knowledge you get from this thread is amazing. Anything new from your replacing the vavle guides MCM375 ?

"G"

....................

MortonPhotographic

UPDATE!

Sorry I never did come back and tell you all what happened with all this. Honestly, I just set the truck aside for awhile. I would drive it here and there, being careful to keep the oil topped off, but I stopped working on it for months.

Here is one of those things that never happens--the problem fixed itself. I know, it doesn't sound logical, but no ore white smoke. I think it was the rings, and they finally seated. I mean, what else could it have been?

That didn't mean I was done, however, I still had bucking idle and black smoke. I also had a belt squell that kept getting worse. Wasn't totally sure what it was (alternator, AC, power steering...) until I got under the truck with some WD-40 when it was screaming at me--dowsing the alternator with it solved my problem!

Of course I put off getting a new one and had the belt go bad and jump the pulley--took me three times of re-setting it on the side of the road to get it home over like 5 miles!

So I finally put in a new alternator and my 22RE runs like a top! No issues (it still scares me to type that, so fingers crossed!) Not only does it run WAY better, but I don't think it has the black smoke anymore. I keep looking for issues, but only have a few very small idle, cold start issues. Stuff I feel relates to timing, TPS and/or the AAV.

I really wish I hadn't cheaped out and put that old alternator in there--would have saved me a lot of time and headaches.

So that's where I'm at now. The engine still needs a little love, but it's great to have it running so good. The truck is at the alignment shop now and that is costing me a fortune... the money pit continues.

"G"

You buy cheap, you buy twice.