Yeah,, he mentioned coolant in one of the cylinders when he removed the head. Lets hope its not that and rule out easier things.
If something is hitting the valve cover I have no idea what it could be. I have a 22r on an engine stand in my garage and looked carefully at it. But he said that it "feels" like something is hitting? He just replaced the cam, and he did have a head gasket failure?
Well I suggest to eliminate the easy possibilities first before tearing things apart.
If he removes the valve cover when the engine is running and the noise stops then its only a matter of "what is hitting the valve cover?"
We await with baited breath !!!

 

Thanks dark_fairytales and nordicwargod.

Here are some things I've noticed while looking and listening to this thing:

It's quiet for a few seconds when cold and first started.
It builds in loudness within a minute or so, under fast idle during warmup.
It's louder and faster when revving it during warmup.
It gets fairly quiet when fully warmed up and idling at low RPM. (!)
It is loud when revving it, even after it's fully warmed up.

When using the stethoscope, it's loudest right on the acorn nuts of the valve cover studs....not so much on the cover itself.
Pulling plug wires one-by-one for the four cylinders seems to make no difference in the sound.

Really grateful for your help, comments, and support.

 

Start eliminating possibilities. Remove you valve cover and take some pictures of the rockerarm assembly and post them. Try to move things and see if somethings loose.
I would lift the valve cover when its making noise and see if that eliminates the hitting.
Was there a lot of coolant in your oil?

 

Here is a follow-up....I had a chance to play with the truck this afternoon:

If the timing is set to 0 at idle, both vacuum advances plugged, the distributor needs to be all the way to end of its adjustment range (fully counter clockwise, so that the adjustor bolt it hitting the far right end of the slot). There, it idles quietly and smoothly. Since it can idle quietly at all, maybe this eliminates typical valve mis-adjustment or rocker/cover impact as sources of the noise? At this point, the timing is as advanced is it can be set. Any additional few degrees of advance, either by revving the throttle or hooking vacuum to the advance on the diz, and it will ping.

I have been unable to insert the distributor and have the timing at 0 degrees with the adjustor bolt at the middle of the adjustment slot.

If I re-insert the distributor one tooth over, so that timing is more advanced to start with, it pings. If I retard the timing as far as it goes with the diz like this, it will go down to about 10 degrees BTDC before it hits the (left) end of the adjustment range and won't go any lower. This is without any vacuum advance. And it pings.

I also played a bit with the timing chain, and moved it one tooth on the cam sprocket. The dimple on the cam sprocket is now slightly more clockwise, and instead of being at 11:30 at TDC, it's more like 12:05. I re-inserted the distributor, and could not get the timing lower than about 5 degrees (no vac advance) and it was pinging.

This is becoming very frustrating. Any advice or handholding would be much appreciated.

 

OK, stop right there. There are 96 links on a 22r timing chain. So each link is almost 4 degrees so you are doing something that could do some real damage. The 22r is an interference engine and after 5 degrees or so those valves may start hitting the pistons. Those exhaust valves comes real close during the exhaust stroke so you have to step back and re-evaluate where you are.
I would buy a degree wheel and piston stop and find true top dead center. Then make sure the cam is at twelve o'clock. If the tensioner is fine and your guides are good then you are done with that
Lots of information on the trick to installing the distributor on this forum. I watched a video on U-tube that showed the amount the rotor turns as its inserted.

 

Thanks nordicwargod.

I have read that it is possible for a sort of nether region with regard to distributor position, and ending up in the middle of the timing adjustment range. With 13 teeth, jumping one distributor tooth means a 28 degree difference, but adjustment by moving the rotor body generally goes about 12 degrees in either direction. Among other possible problems, looks like I'm there.

The head is a refurbished one, but I never accurately measured its height in comparison with the original. Would it be safe to assumed it had been milled (and the cam lobes too?). If so, what would this do to the cam timing? When I jumped the chain, i moved the cam sprocket clockwise....was this the wrong direction?

 

By moving the cam sprocket clockwise you advanced the cam if the crank did not move. I don't know enough about these engines to tell you for sure that 4 degrees advanced will do damage. Not many people intentionally advance one tooth just as a "guess" and hope for the best. You have to find out where you really are now since so many things have been altered/changed.
So forget about the distributer for now and find out where that cam is compared to the crank. Very important if you want to figure out your problems. Hate to see you put time, money, and sweat into this and make it a bunch of junk in short order. If the valves hit the pistons you will probably be looking at more than some head work.
How much was the re-conditioned head? You can get a new head with valves and everything from engnblder for $350 delivered. If I had a suspect head that is the way I would go rather than buying a used/worked on one.

 

Jumping the chain was a wild goose chase. It did not change the rattle.

Since my last post, this is what I've done:

Jumped the chain yet again, this time time in the opposite direction. Now the dimple on the cam sprocket reads about 11:30 at TDC. Looking at the picture of LCE's adjustable cam gear indicates (at least the way I interpret it) this is equivalent to advancing cam timing by 9 degrees. I was thinking this might be good if my head has been milled, which i guess would have retarded cam timing.
Now the distributor can be inserted so that 0 degrees advanced is in the center of the adjustment range on the distributor slot.
No effect on the noise. i was lucky, i dont think pistons were impacting valves with any of this.

Bought a vacuum gauge and ran tests--all seems normal. Steady needle at around 20 inches.

Rechecked engine compression--about 140 across all four cylinders. Normal.

Rechecked the noise with a timing light--the taps and flashes seem in synch, which would normally indicate top-end problems.

Tried the stethoscope again. The front passenger side valve cover nut is much louder than the other three.

In answer to your question nordicwargod, I paid $300 for the head/cam. I do regret it now, in hindsight. i should have invested in engnbldr....actually, I should have just bought a whole new motor. I should also degree the cam, but right now the main priority is identifying the noise, after that I will deal with other performance issues that might come up. Haven't taken this thing out for more than a drive around the block (out of fear) and have no idea how she'll do on the highway.

 

Two things:
1. Compression is 140? That is a little low, but its still running!
2. Since you are running it and the noise seems to be around the acorn nut. Have you removed/lifted the cover when its running. You are spending a lot of time with this noise. Time to start eliminating ideas.

 

Thanks again nordicwargod. Seems like you're the only one following this.

Please forgive my inexperience with a lot of this.

Here is where things are:

It runs good. Starts good. Has decent power when going down the road. Ignition timing is maybe retarded slightly, to -2 degrees with no advance at idle, and maybe +6 degrees with the vacuum connected. Cam timing was altered by advancing it about 9 degrees to compensate for whatever milling changed the head deck height. Oil pressure good. Manifold vac is good. Compression seems good, especially with the quart of Lucas in there. The head gasket and all the other gaskets and new parts seems to be holding up really well, and there are no leaks of any kind.

The valvetrain noise remains. Impact between rocker arms and valve cover has been eliminated as a source of the noise. I've now readjusted the valves about twelve times. Hot, cold, a little more open, a little more closed (even tried 0.1 mm, or about 0.004", on all eight valves when hot!). None of this made much difference.

Something I noticed when playing with the rockers: they don't contact the cam except when the largest parts of lobes reach the rocker pads. There is, for most of the cycle, a slight gap of like a couple thousandths so that the rockers can jiggle up and down. For example, at TDC, when intakes #1 and #2 are loose and can be gapped, the rocker for intake #4 can be jiggled up and down by a miniscule amount. I thought it should be totally tight there.

My questions:

Is is normal? Shouldn't the rocker pads have much more contact with the cam throughout its rotation? Could this be the cause of the noise?

Is there a problem with the cam? Maybe it's worn and/or someone milled too much off when it was reconditioned?

Could the problem be something with the valve springs? i can't see anything when i play with those, and the valves themselves are brand new. I'd guess the springs are new also. Its just that when the valves are fully closed, they're not pushing the rockers all the way to make contact with the cam.

The rockers are original, and I didn't have this noise at all before the new head/cam was installed. They don't look very worn, and they've never been resurfaced. The two rocker shafts look alright. The rocker pads ride close to the centers of the cam lobes and valve stems, which seems good. The two rocker arm spacers on the intake side look okay.

 

Another piece of info: i followed one rocker (intake #1) through a full spin of the cam. The rocker pad contacted the cam for about 90 degrees of the cycle, when the largest bulge in the cam lobe was going by...for the other 270 degrees there was varying amounts of play.

 

That is the way its suppose to be. When the pads are not being pushed up by the cam there is suppose to be some play. #4 is a good example.
Sounds like your valves are OK and adjusted right.
You really have me worried with this cam timing "experiment" you are doing. You could easily destroy your engine doing this. One does not simply move the chain two links to "see what happens" and get away with it. I think you need some assistance now. Start calling in favors or take it to someone who can figure this out for you.

 

Your input, and your worrying, are greatly appreciated nordicwargod.

Been doing tons of reading lately about camshafts on 22r engines. I realize now what dangerous ground I was on, jumping the chain and all, with regard to the possibility of valves contacting pistons.

But you've said yourself: eliminate possibilities. How else can you do that, other than to experiment?

When i was chain jumping, at least i turned the crank by hand a bunch of times, and a few times with the starter, before I let loose and actually ran it.

I did take the truck to a local shop, where I knew a decent mechanic. Unfortunately, the shop been sold recently to some recent immigrants, who, when asked what they thought the noise was, responded with "valvulas" . They also told me they'd need to tear the engine apart to fix it. Grrrrr.

I don't have much besides the resources of yotatech to help me figure this out. I guess i could drive it to another shop, but I don't have much trust.

My latest inclination is to do yet another experiment (yikes, I know! kaboom!). I have begun to consider buying a new cam, like enginebuilder's 268. I wish i had properly measured the cam that's in there now before i installed it. Now i'm faced with decisions like whether I need new rockers too, and how dangerous it is to pull rockers and cams off without disrupting my spanking new and leak-free head gasket. Maybe this would be a very expensive disaster.

 

Removing the rockerarm assembly and changing a cam has been done without removing and replacing head gasket but usually the gasket has been on there a long time with thousands of hot and cold cycles to "seal" the two together. There is a good video on this at youtube. Because you just installed it I don't think you could get away with it. But do you have the stock cam?
Yes I said eliminate possible causes of the noise and I also said start out with the easy things that it could be. Example: Lift valve cover while its idling to see if noise stops. I don't think anyone on this forum would begin to suggest to move the cam sprocket one or two links either way to see if a noise goes away!!!!!
With everything thats going on and all that has happened I'm not really sure where to go with this. If you had that noise before you removed the head I would think to check out the piston's/ piston rods because of fluid in the cylinders. But this means removing the engine.
Hopefully others will chime in on this because I'm at a loss on the direction you should go.

 

Yeah thanks nordicwargod.

When I first pulled the head, it was definitely warped. I was going to take it to a machine shop. But then I noticed I could buy a refurbished head with all new valves and cam installed for $300, so did that instead. I still have the original head.

At the time, it was difficult to find a new head that I could afford. There are plenty of choices for 22r and 22re (1985+) with the pear-shaped exhaust openings, but not much out there for the earlier round-hole. Although LCE makes them, there was no way I could justify the nearly $1000...and enginebuilder does not cast this one.

I'm down to thinking there are lots of problems with the head, which was bought from cylinder heads international. Not only was this head excessively decked, causing me cam timing problems, but the damn the rattle! I am suspicious of the camshaft and the valve springs, although the valve stems and seals I think are new.

I wish it had been something as simple as the valve cover. But that idea was eliminated when I loosened the valve cover bolts and raised the cover by about 5mm while it was running and nothing changed except making a mess. (I also ground off all suspect areas of the baffle where some previous impacts must have happened).

Not sure how to experiment on this anymore, short of part-swapping. The parts I want to swap now (valve springs, and maybe the cam) really demand I pull that head off. Do you think it's possible to swap out the valves springs without removing the rocker assembly?

So if I'm going to pull the head, it will have to wait until springtime. It's too cold and the days are too short to do much on it now, with no garage to work in.

 

Since you just installed the head I don't think you could get away with removing the rockerarm assembly without losing the seal.
If you were able to do it over I would simply have replaced the engine with a later era 22r. During the winter you ought to look on craigslist for a complete running engine. Maybe pick one up for $500 or so. Less expensive than your current options.

 

Ugh.

I easily put over $1200 into this project already. New timing chain set, timing cover, gaskets, water pump, oil pump, cleaning fluids and oil, miscellaneous nuts and bolts, tools, testing equipment, not to mention the friggin POS cylinder head. Weeks (months) of work.

And to throw it all away, just because some valve spring or other is broken?

 

Sorry to hear that. But you still have something wrong from that noise we all listened to. Maybe its something simple like the rockerarm assembly or something terminal like a piston rod.
Use the winter to watch a lot of videos and read a lot of material on these engines.

 

I've definitely taken your advice, and have read hundreds of posts, watched every relevant video, etc., ...this problem has virtually consumed me for weeks now.

After all the research, my best hypothesis is that the valve train is the issue. in particular, it is one of the valves/rockers on the intake side, either #1 or #2. The noise and vibration is by far the worst on the valve cover stud at that location.

Even if this hypothesis is correct, there are still some questions.

Loose rocker? (perhaps doubtful, since these are the original ones that were noise-free).
Flat-spot on the cam? (hard to see with the eye...the remanufacturers at least buffed all the scratches off the lobes or did a lot of grinding on it).
Incorrect lash? (experimented with this too many times already...I doubt it.)
Broken valve seal? (hmm)
Bent valve? (doubtful....the engine runs fine and there's decent compression, so it seems like they're at least seating right)
Bent or weak valve spring? (this is one thing I haven't really been able to check. Does the noise sound like it could be "valve float"?)

Regardless, I have resigned to the necessity of pulling the head. Depending on what it looks like, replacing the valve springs, cam, and maybe the rockers, plus some new gaskets, the job will likely cost around $300.

Before doing this, though, I would like to be absolutely certain the noise is not originating in the bottom of the engine, like a wrist pin. Is there a foolproof way to test this?

 

Slight update: I called Scott at Cylinder Heads International.

After a lengthy discussion, he doubted there was anything wrong with the refurbished head they sent me. He told me the valve springs are likely not new, but that they are thoroughly tested by them.

He also thought it was strange that the rattle noise only happens at high rpm and not at idle. His strongest suspicion was that the noise was coming from the timing chain due to a chain tensioner problem.

He also offered to look at their head, and castigated me for not sending them my old head, which was "part of the deal."