22r block with a 20r head
piston type and valve size are unknown
cam brand unknown, but is in the 270's
dual row timing chain setup
dual row adjustable cam gear from lc
doug thorley tri-y header
32/36 weber, stock jets
holley fuel press. reg.
84 4runner with lots of work mechanically, newly painted, rock sliders, linexed

Now that you have the run down on the vehicle here is what we have. I got this engine from a guy that was upgrading to a small block and had the motor rebuilt about 10k ago (so he says). I definitely believe that it was rebuilt recently as there is absolutely sludge or carbon build up to be found yet. I have removed the valve cover and everything looks brand spankin new. Same goes with the engine from the bottom side.

The engine ran, but I suspected that there may be an issue to to low fuel mileage. Something it has done since putting it in the truck is when you first start it up it sounds like there is a rattle for about 1 second (definitely coming from the engine side of things). Could this be a valve? Only does it on start and I believe a cold start only. It goes away and is never to be heard again. Now when driving under load at higher rpms there is a ping, I figure it was due to the timing. I timed it again and it still didn't go away. This led me to get the adjustable cam in order to get the timing on everything as good as possible.

Before tearing into it to get the job done, I decided to do a compression check. All cylinders were at 130 +- 5. I figured I would proceed with the adjustable cam setup and get that dialed in and run another test and see how it went and if still not up then run the leakdown and go from there.

I had one hell of a time remove the crankshaft pulley and had to make a custom puller. I took it off and the end of the crank is marred pretty bad with deep scratches that go length wise with the crank (definitely couldn't be from me remove it). They seem to stop just before the oil pump "gear" that slides on the crank. That is the first problem, I know people talk about crank runout. Is this something I should be worried about or just let it slide?

Next issue... (actually hit this one first) I marked the chain where the dot on the cam gear is so I would know where to put it back, not seeing the bright link. I put it all back and took a closer look at it with the light and saw the bright link. It is exactly the next link over, so it was off an entire link. This brings us to the issue and question. Is the 20r/22r, setup with dual timing chain setup going to match up crank gear and cam gear with both bright links or no? I would think so, but you never know since a few things have been changed.

The last issue as of now: The oil pump "gear" that slides on the crank will not come off due to the mars on the crank. I took some high grit sand paper and wet sanded even around the crank (just a little) to help remove some off the burs from the deep scratches, but it didn't seem to do the trick.

As of now, I have the oil pan off, oil pump, and water pump along with the stuff at the top to do the timing chain up there.

Any help or suggestions at all would be great. I'll get some pics up asap if anyone needs to take a look at something.

 

I'd go after the basics first. Find the stock setting on your cam gear, pull it to TDC on #1 and see where the gears are sitting. If necessary move the gear to stock and check again. This is going to give you your baseline setting. From there you can degree in your cam. If you do not have the right tools to degree the cam then leave it at stock. Don't rely on a shining link to set your cam

 

I wasn't worried about the shining link to set the cam so much, I was more worried about getting it setup correctly in the first place and then going from there with the adjustable cam. I do have all the proper tools to adjust the cam correctly. How should I go about it then? Put it back to where it was (one link away from the bright link and not worry about them being lined up at all before starting?)

Secondly, should I not worry about the fact that the end of my crank is messed up and can't get the oil pump drive spline off? I think addressing both of these should be important before moving forward.

 

130+/-5 sounds a little low, especially for a hybrid motor and considering the engine is pinging at higher RPM. Now cam timing might affect the dynamic compression ratio, but not the static compression ratio. I am unsure it affect what you see at the compression gauge or not I want to say yes it does. Retarding cam timing lowers dynamic compression where as advancing it raises it. Boring out the engine also lowers the static compression of the engine as well. Shaving the block and/or head raises it.

Now you said it's got the 20r head on there, which will raise compression in two ways lower head CC and it flows better. But the flowing better part is only if the head has been ported/polished. If not I can see it actually restricting air flow to the engine, which will actually lower your compression numbers because less air is in the cyl to get compressed resulting in a lower PSI. This is the same reason retarding cam timing lowers compression.

I wouldn't worry about the oil pump drive spline not coming off. I believe you can still access the timing chain with that on.

Do you know if the head or block had been shaved down at all? Because that can affect cam timing in the way of retarding the timing. But you may or may not see that in the chain link locations on the sprockets. I know I didn't notice much with a new head and block shaved 10 thous. I know that I had said retarding timing lowers and shaving block/head raises compression, so that seems to be a little contradictory but trust me one affects the numbers more then the other.

Sorry for the long drawn out post. I would reset the timing chain links and such to where it should be, set the cam gear at 0 degrees and then degree in that cam properly and then go from there.

When done, with the cam degreeing, adjust the weber back to factory specs and tune it using the proper method with the fuel pressure set at 3.5-4psi. An improperly tuned weber could be the cause of the engine ping, especially since your compression numbers are so low. But so can a retarded cam because it's sending fuel too late into the engine even though it lowers the compression.

P.S. Your sure that that 20r head is on an early block right? And the P.O. didn't use flattop pistons in a late model 22r block to clear the head. Because that would definitely lower your compression.

P.S.S. Watch for a possible edit, in case I got something backwards. I usually do that when making this long of a post and doing other things in addition to being on here. lol.

 

Thanks for the info. I couldn't tell ya about the piston style, valves, or port. I thought I had done enough research on the dang thing before I bought it, but you always find out more info after the matter. ha ha. I'm sure you guys can relate.

It definitely is on an early "lazer" block.

Here is a photo of the crank (beware 56k):

http://www.ledlightingandmods.com/_c...t/IMG_7559.jpg

Just took the pic a couple mins ago and threw it on my server. Anyway of telling piston style from the bottom? I do have a snake cam, but not sure it would be good enough to see in the spark plug hole or even fit.

What are your thoughts on that crank? Seems pretty gnarly to me. Pisses me off someone would do that. I'm tempted to pull the head, but don't want to end up having to tear the bottom end apart if the rings are bad after putting it all back together and building the thing the way it should be built myself.

 

by the looks of that oil pump gear yeah, replace that, it looks like the P.O. had "issues" with the crank key, and instead of replacing it, he used a non, brass/rubber mallet to knock the oil pump gear on and most likely everything else on the front of that crank. The crank will be fine as long as you can get the burs off, but I would definitely replace that oil pump drive spline and crank key. LCE has crank keys, not sure how much they would be from the dealer. I used the keys from LCE when I redid mine.

 

I'll go head and get that stuff off. Should be fun, jk.

I have a guy that lives 5 minutes away from me that is extremely well known around these parts (I've heard he ships them all around the world as well) for building r series motor and has an outstanding track record, so any work I ever have done i go with him (he didn't do any of this work though or I wouldn't have problems). He has all the yota parts for a 22r engine (minus accessories) that you could ever want and only carries quality product. Sunwest automotive. Beside that I will go ahead and proceed with removing the timing chain cover and see what I can do about getting the oil spline off.

edit: I forgot to post this message, but I have removed the TC cover and gotten a new key and spline. Still trying to get the spline off. I noticed that the TC on the bottom was off (not between the two bright links). It was a link off, which means that if the one on the top was a link off in the same direction it wouldn't matter unless I'm missing something. I'll take a look at it again and let you know what I find. It is seeming like bent valves could be the culprit of bad comp, but I won't proceed with looking until I get the spline off

More info: I talked to the PO about the engine today. He wasn't of much help, but I did get out of him that he doesn't know about the pistons and that it does have OS valves. Not much else.

 

actually it would matter, I don't believe those index links on the chain are actually center of the chain. IIRC they are 1 or 2 or so links off from being centered. But I could be wrong.

 

So with that said, then it could be bent valves that are causing the leak or low compression, but I won't jump to any conclusions until I get the cam dialed in and then before assembling everything I think I will run a leakdown test (engine won't be operating temp though).

Could the bent valves explain some of the noise coming from the engine right at startup or at higher rpms? I'm in new territory with possibility of bent valves and pinpointing them. What is the easiest way to tell?

Any tips on removing the crank key? I've filed the edges of and tried hitting with a hammer and flathead screw driver, no go.

 

na if bent valves that would be there the whole time, at startup could be worn rod bearings starting to show their face, piston slap (that would also cause low compression if not warmed up especially if they are forged pistons which would be actually normal for a forged piston) or simply timing chain slap on the cover especially with a steel guide. Could also be valve rocker noise but doubt that since it goes away. Hard to tell without a video.

 

Hmm... What is the easiest way to check the valves? I don't want this thing going back together until all checks out.

 

I am going to keep on track with the replacement of these parts and then once I get it up and the cam timed I will do a leakdown and see what happens. I will not rest until this thing runs 100% I will keep you posted and if anyone thinks of anything please let me know. Thanks.

 

By valve rocker noise I mean recheck and set valve lash. Do that after you get the cam right. Otherwise you might not be setting the valve lash @ base circle due to the cam timing being a little off.

 

Ok, so I've got the key out and the oil pump drive spline off after hours of working on them. They have been replaced and the timing chain has been placed on correctly. True TDC was located and the cam centerline was located using a cam degree wheel and a dial indication. I have a lobe centerline of currently ~104.25 (+/- .25). My next step is adjusting the cam gear, but not sure where I should adjust it to. I was reading that the cams should come with a card or specs with some of this info on them. Well, I don't know what cam it is as I didn't put it in or buy the cam. I have found some markings on the cam though. Perhaps someone may know what they mean or help locate the exact cam.

These were all found separately:

cwc
ep-32
G-9
D-2
C-2
I.5

Any Ideas on what cam or how much I should adjust the cam center line now with the adjustable cam gear?

 

Ok, so i read more at this link:

http://www.lcengineering.com/camdegreeing.htm

and found that the center line "average" can be found between the intake and the exhaust centerlines. I will do this. I went and found the intake centerline again after setting everything back up and was about .5 degree different, but I think that is acceptable at this point. I went ahead and began locating the exhaust centerline, but found it was a little different. I did see that the exhaust valve didn't close all the way until ATDC, which could explain why I'm losing compression (edit: may not be true unless it is really bad, but haven't looked at it close enough). I think I will figure out the procedure to get the right numbers and then get em and go from there and try and get the exhaust and intake to be open at the best times in order to maximize the overall performance instead of looking at it in the perspective of where the power band is like in the article.

Let me know if you anyone has any experience here, input, or advice. Any and all would be very much appreciated. I will keep this thread updated and if anyone wants/needs photos let me know and I will post up.

 

update:

I just did the exhaust side and the numbers are very far apart for the intake and exhaust centerlines.

Intake: 104.9
Exhaust: 117

I think I will try and bring these together a little closer with the adjustable cam gear.

Under the varying lobe separation "chart" (not really a chart), they say that very wide separation will lower compression. How far, who knows (hopefully lots, ha ha).

edit: I tried to copy and paste the "chart", but doesn't really work well. Just visit the link in one of the above posts and scroll toward the bottom of the page.

 

Well, I decided to give their calculator a chance, so I punched my numbers in and my math has been correct thus far. ha ha. Here is also what it stated:

Overlap: 0
intake duration: 217.8 degrees
exhaust duration: 226 degrees
intake centerline of 104.9 degrees atdc
exhaust centerline of 117 degrees btdc

Unless their calc is wrong the 0 degrees as it sits stand for improvement as I should be able to get a better air/fuel mixture if I have a little overlap. As far as the durations, I don't know enough about the engine to properly analyze those figures.

Anyone have any info on how to do the following as they are important to do when messing with the cam:

Always check all clearances (i.e. piston to valve, valve to valve), check for coil bind, and check retainer to guide clearance when you degree in your cams

 

Here is a question that hopefully someone can answer.

I was adjusting my cam gear to try and make the center lines tighter between the exhaust and the intake when I noticed that at TDC my bright link is no longer lined up with the dot on the cam? Is this normal or no? I've turned the engine over quite a bit taking readings and what not. Can someone answer this?

 

So I've got the intake and exhaust center lines pretty tight. Intake is about 110 and exhaust is about 111 give or take a 1/4 degree each. I had to retard the cam in order to achieve these results from the roughly 104 intake and 117 exhaust. I adjusted it exactly 3 notches on the adjustable cam gear from LC. I was told my cam was in the 270's, but don't exactly for anyone that may have a similar setup and is curious.

My next step tomorrow is to adjust the valves now that it is all time and I know true tdc (shouldn't matter b/c there is the area on the cam where the valves don't move, but I'll do it anyways).

After that is all done and said I will go ahead and perform a leakdown test on a cold engine with 100psi and see what kind of numbers I get and what I can find. There had to be an issue with a comp test showing 130's. Even if you use stock 22r pistons with a 20r head you bump compression automatically without anything else done. So there is/was an issue somewhere and I should know more about it tomorrow. Also when I did the comp test they all tested similarly within 10%, so that tells me it is probably the same issue across the board for all cylinders.

 

Does anyone know what would be meant by zeroing out the cam?