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gday all,
im looking to invest in a rear locker for my girl (vzn130 4runner). the lsd is,
well...no longer an lsd at 400,000ks.
upon inquiring about the '4wd systems LOKKA' to suit the factory rear lsd
carrier for 4 runner turbo 4cyl's and v6's (toy-rl-759)...this is the response i got...
"Sorry we dont have them for the V6 with manual trans. Yes, if it was auto.
Its the EFI that is not compatible to the Lokka.
It would fit into the OE carrier, replacing all gears"
so i asked how it could possibly have an effect on the efi system...
"The efi picks up the change in RPM as it locks and unlocks, not a
very big change but it is there.
The ECU thinks something is wrong and drops the RPM, so the lokka re-locks,
then it un-locks as it is still in a corner, and then the process repeats itself.
Only a problem for city driving."
so im hoping other members here that have lockers in the rear
of their 3vze powered 4runners, can confirm whether this is an
actual issue, i will drive this vehicle on the road, so i dont
want any wierd bunny hopping effects while im turning corners.
I've never heard of the lokka. Turns out it's a copycat lockright/spartan type for a 2 pinion 4 cyl diff. So no, it won't work in your 4 pinion V6/Turbo diff. Which is not a LSD, because it never was. From the factory at least. EFI or transmission type have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with fitment or functionality of locking differentials. Total BS.
Mudhippy. Its an australian delivered 4runner. My axle code is G285. Factory 4 pinion lsd, 4.3 ratio. And the 4wd systems lokka diff is designed to fit in the lsd centre... there are a few different models of lokka to suit the variations of factory diffs (front/rear, 2pin/4pin, lsd/open centre), i provided the part number for the one that does fit in the lsd centre. And i dont think its a copy of spartan and lockright, because the lokka replaces the side gears. I didnt start this thread with false facts. I just want to know of ANY efi issues with ANY locker in the 3vz 4runners from members that have them installed
Good for you. You're smart enough to decipher an axle code. Yet not quite smart enough to know why a 4-pinion non LSD diff is the same as far as locker compatibilty. So, again, if it's the one I was looking at(can't find pics of the one you say exists) it will NOT work in your diff. Or wise enough to see straight through the obvious falsitude of the EFI or manual vs. auto nonsense.
The line between false facts has just been drawn differently is all. These "lokka" guys don't seem to have a clue what's what or why.
I'll be glad to help you with any other based in reality issues though.
Sorry I forgot to mention our unwritten policy here. PICS OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
By that I mean...you show me first. THEN I believe you. If you're right, you're right. But you're still kinda wrong. It's not really your fault though. I should probably email these dopes and tell them to quit with all the made up pseudoscience. Then we aren't having this dumbass conversation about one of THE stupidest things I've ever heard. But what do I care. They'll never get a foothold here(USA) with it. Not mad at you. Mad at them.
It'll make you feel better to know that you have taught me something of value though. Now I know where all these supposed LSDs that are for pre-96 pickups and 4Runners came from. Even though that's not where they were originally used. Here we get them out of Supra diffs. Until today I was not even going to believe they were EVER installed in a pre-96. They're showing up on ebay. And the questions about them are being asked. I've had to say "no, they are not" but "if they're the same as the Supra's, then they will" and "they sure look the same". But who wants one anyway? They aren't really suited for 4WD trucks.
Hey...get back over here! I want to apologize. We got off on the wrong foot. Not your fault. Seriously. I made a mistake. You're probably right about what you're right about. I realize that now. I'll take your word for it. But THEY are definitely WRONG about the EFI and manual vs. automatic garbage. And I was definitely WRONG to get all snippy and judgmental towards you. I take it all back. And I won't even delete the dumb stuff I said to make myself look any better. It's clear for all to see where I screwed up and made an ass of myself there.
You seem like a pretty smart and fairly well informed guy, in hindsight. Please forgive me. I'm a jerk. But that's how I get sometimes. But I can be pretty reasonable sometimes too. It's 50/50. You've gotta be able to take the good with the bad. Give a guy a second chance. Or not. Up to you. I'll understand if you don't.
I've got hoof in mouth disease. Can I be any more self-deprecating? Let me know and I'll give it a shot.
Well it might interest u to know that i updated my second post with more info...and the supras had 2 different lsds, one was a torsen and the other was a standard clutch pack design. My factory 4runner diff IS the clutch pack design. And i can sort of c how the whole manual v auto could potentially be an issue, and this is exactly why i have front the vast community of yota fans for closure...even tho i also think the efi/manual incompatibility is absolute crap. Hence me wanting feedback from members that have lockers in the efi v6s. now, back to the auto v manual- The auto(well, the torque converter itself more to the point) would take up the load and rpm variation from the wheel locking, without the computer knowing, as the torque converter constantly has varying input and output rpm (unless ofcourse the lockup is engaged). Where as the manual is a solid coupling...so that 'very minor' difference in rpm they have mentioned (caused by the inner wheel gripping) would be transmitted straight to the engine and apparently the ecu/efi thinks something is wrong? so IF there is something outrageously stupid within the ecu programming that does infact cut the efi intermittently when a slight/sudden decrease in rpm is noticed...then i would like to know about it
Yeah I heard about the torsen diffs too. Though the guy here that said it made me question whether it was possibly true or not. He seems to think they were all torsens. Which I can prove they weren't. And I have no way to prove, or any reason to believe that a 4-pinion LSD would use the same locker as a non-LSD. Probably not. I'll take your word for it.
About the auto thing. I can also see how someone might think that. But they also contradict themselves by saying anything engine driven will make no such difference. And that it takes the resistance between the wheels and the surface being driven on to unlock the diff. Which is correct. In short, hell no the torque convertor does not make the locker behave any differently than if it was a flywheel. Come on. That's ridiculous. Not you. THEM.
And I have absolutely NO IDEA where they got the EFI crap. And I don't even no where to begin. I guess a good starting point would be the ECU has no way to adjust rpm. That's what the throttle is for. Good god where did they get such a notion? I can prove all of this. But I'd rather not. However if you'd like I will expand upon it at your request.
EDIT: Wait...I think I just thought of where they got the idea. But no. It's still wrong. They've taken a leap and a half to conclude that. Now I'm going to have to reread a few things to be sure though. That's fine though. I need a refresher on it. If I'm wrong I'll be back to correct myself. Not too likely that's the case though.
Anywho. They probably think that the vacuum throttle opener can some how control the throttle beyond what it actually can. It's not even ECU controlled. And doesn't have the length of travel needed to do anything but open the throttle just a small amount from completely closed. If that's not from where the confusion is derived, then I don't know where it is. Because there's no way that the cruise control actuator can close the throttle if your foot is keeping it open. And the ECU is not programmed to do that independently anyway. In fact it's a totally different computer entirely. Which does nothing other than cruise control. And not all EFI have CC. So it wouldn't even apply to many of them.
Bottom line: It's like I'm saying. Not on this engine. Maybe on some other engine. But not this one.
I've actually gotta quit thinking about it for now. Stupid hurts my brain.
what i gather from his preposterous hypothesis, was that the efi system (with a helping hand from the ecu) can sense a very sudden decrease in rpm, which would potentially be caused by the extra load from lokka, locking the inner wheel on a turn. god knows how they (toyota) would be able to program the computer, or how they could even calculate 'acceptable' limits for a sudden decrease in rpm, to determine when the said 'sudden decrease' is actually an issue?
actually thinking about it again now...that would mean that the ecu would always cut efi power intermittently when doing some serious offroading...consider this- crawling over rocks when then wheels can slip/spin and then suddenly gain traction - that loads up the engine and decreases rpm pretty 'suddenly'.
back to one of ur previous comments, "And I have no way to prove, or any reason to believe that a 4-pinion LSD would use the same locker as a non-LSD. Probably not. I'll take your word for it."
i never said that the lsd would use the same locker as an open centre diff...the internal measurements for the centre would be completely different, as there are more components in the lsd's centre, but i dont think i need to tell u that lol.
heres a pic of the lokka 'wizard' (US website) application listing, the wizard on the website would not come up with its own link...so i took a screenshot (strange how it lists V6 3.0Li...did they make a 3L v6 injected diesel?)
heres a link to the 4wd systems lokka for ur reference, also found part number LKA376 (and this listing specifically says not for use with manual 3vze's) u can narrow the search field to 130 series 4 runner, and the diff will not be listed https://www.4wdsystems.com.au/index.php?id=125&cat=148
and im assuming that 4wd systems is just the aussie distributor for lokka, meaning theyre the same diff, but we pay a premium price for it. i tried contacting lokka directly but they said they cannot help me because they cannot supply in aus...good old distribution rights and contracts
...and to confuse the fact furthermore, after doing some research-well, not really research as its on lokkas home page, lokka was originally aussie lokka and australian made, but theyre now made in the usa under the brand of lokka. which really gets my back up about having to pay more for it now lol...small things
The only thing I hadn't clarified on my own was what's shown in that last pic. Which clarifies nothing actually. Why the same pic of a 2-pinion locker for all of them? That's not very helpful or informative. And I guess clarify is the wrong word for the aussie connection. As I'd only speculated that much. They're know as an "aussie locker" in these parts.
I meant 4-pinion non-LSD. Which has enough in common with a 4-pinion LSD that it kinda surprises me that they wouldn't use the same locker(it's 4-pinion so what else matters?). But then again it doesn't surprise me. Because the side gears, and maybe the pinions too, would likely be different. I would, however, think that the carrier itself would be the same(or close to it). I know they look exactly the same from the outside. And without close inspection it's hard to tell them apart. Where's ZUK when we need him? He'd know exactly what the differences are between the 2. I've only seen pics of the 8" 4-pinion LSDs. He's worked on all of them.
And yeah, I'd think we'd all know about the EFI thing by now. Those of us with or without lockers even. But after thinking about it some more it could be possible to a certain extent. It could cut fuel. But that's not going to be a very precise way to manage rpm. And it just doesn't work like that. Because it wouldn't do any good even if it did. It doesn't fit any strategy of improving driveability, self-diagnosis, or implementation of a fail-safe mode(changing engine operating parameters in case of a sensor failure or overheat condition to limit or prevent damage to the engine). It would only be a bothersome annoyance. "It thinks something's wrong". Like what? And how does that fix it?
And it's not like they invented automatic locking differentials. Their designs are essentially the same as everybody's. Nor is it the case that one type of automatic locking differential behaves differently than another(not significantly anyway). They all operate based on the same principles. Not to mention I'd be willing to bet most(the vast majority I'd assume) of them are used with a manual transmission and an EFI engine(at least in the 4WD world). So why do other companies not make such statements in those regards? This would be a well known issue by now. None of it makes a lick of sense.
Do you see what I'm saying? That's rhetorical. As I'm sure you do.
Though I could somehow be wrong, I'd bet my life I'm not at this point. But anything's possible really. It's hard, if not impossible, to know all there is to know about anything. But nobody's jumping in here to correct me where I'm wrong. So until they do, this is where we're at. I feel very confident in my position/opinion.
Well, maybe ill buy one, fit it...c what happens. And deal with it. After all its only my bunky....worst comes to worst and there is a massive unbearable problem (which i highly doubt) then i can pull it back out
Ive bought one, and its on the way as i type this, the photos in the second picture were just generic, every single locker they have listed on the website has that exact same picture. mudhippy, did u want me to take some happy snaps of all the internals and whatnot as 'proof' when i do the install regarding the sites unspoken policy of 'pics or it didnt happen'?... and for future reference ofcourse lol.
well...update time. lokka is in and works a treat, i used penrite 85-140 oil. the thing is barely audible... with my radio off, windows down and in a quiet car park, i really had to listen hard to pick up on it ratcheting under no load like it should.
now...onto the reason i started this thread in the first place! turns out the retailer wasnt pulling my leg or making up stories. sure enough, under load, going around corners on sealed surfaces the car kind of hops and surges a little, nothing massive that will give u whip lash though, just means i will need to change my driving style to coast through corners instead of powering through them! all in all im happy, i can deal with the small efi issue, knowing that i have a diff that will get me anywhere!
might just be a thing with the aussie models and something to do with tuning/safety or emissions? will i ever find out...nope, simply dont care lol, and i dont want to invest time and money into computer scanners and tuners time$$$
04-20-2016, 03:06 AM
