Oiling head bolts?
02-11-2009, 11:15 AM
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Oiling head bolts?
My friend told me that I am going to blow a head gasket soon because I did not oil my head bolts before putting them in. This seems outrageous. I told him that it was stupid to put oil all over those bolts and stick them in. And, even if it was required (if it said it in the manual which he claims!), and after 10k miles, I doubt I'll be blowing a HG anytime soon. So, what do you think?
(He rebuilt his 22re a couple weekends ago and I did mine back in October)
(He rebuilt his 22re a couple weekends ago and I did mine back in October)
02-11-2009, 11:24 AM
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a little coat of oil won't hurt to help keep the bolts from rusting. it could make it difficult to remove if the too much is applied and / or the oil cokes up though. typically, if anything, anti-sieze lube on the first few threads is all you need.
But not applying anything shouldn't hurt.
But not applying anything shouldn't hurt.
02-11-2009, 11:25 AM
#3
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It can make your torque readings be a little off, but I wouldn't think it would be a significant amount if the manual calls for oil. If it called for assembly lube or something like ARP's lube, then your torque values could be pretty far off.
I think you should be ok though.
I think you should be ok though.
02-11-2009, 11:27 AM
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Not sure about the 22re, but for the 3.0L, the FSM does state to oil the threads and under the bolt heads when you install them. That will result in your head bolts having more tension on them after you finish tightening them to the final value (initial step of bolting down heads has you torque to a specified value, then you go back and give an additional 1/4 turn on each head bolt twice... again, for the3.0L... not sure abou the 22re). With the threads and bolt heads oiled, the first step of torquing will get the bolts tighter (or more tension on them for the same tightening torque), so the resulting tension on the bolts will be higher in the end.
Will your HG blow quicker? Maybe... maybe not... it's hard to say. If it blows, change it. If you end up having to do it again, do it right by oiling the threads and bolt heads.
Will your HG blow quicker? Maybe... maybe not... it's hard to say. If it blows, change it. If you end up having to do it again, do it right by oiling the threads and bolt heads.
02-11-2009, 11:41 AM
#6
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Here's EB's way of torquing head bolts:
>>>*Other than simple overheat, the #1 cause of head gasket failure is clamping force variations.
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
Usually when I mention this, the answer is "I torqued it properly!"
*Yes, very likely, but torque, which is a twisting force, means almost nothing when we are talking about clamping force.
Dirt or machinery debris in the bolt holes will throw the clamping force off as much as 50% and more, even though the torque wrench reads perfectly normal.
The same happens when installing new bolts. The very best bolts made will show a rough mating surface at the threads when inspected under a microscope.
When installing new or used fastners, first be sure the bolt will spin in and out ALL THE WAY freely with simple finger pressure. Be sure they are lightly oiled, not too much which can hydraulic lock at the bottom of any blind holes and spoil your day.
Use this simple breakin procedure for any new bolts: Tighten all of them to 50%, back off 1/4 turn, then to 75%, back off 1/4 turn. Then take them to 100%, back off 1/4 turn and repeat. Do a retorque after full warmup.
*This procedure simply assures that the imperfections of the threads seat to the bolt hole threads.
Yes, time consuming, but much faster and less costly than another set of gaskets, the actual clamping force will increase vastly, even though the torque load is exactly the same.
The alternative is you may be additional twisting at the top of the bolt after the threads have come to a stop from excess friction.
If any single one does that, head gasket failure prematurely is gauranteed, plus it weakens the bolt....*EB
02-11-2009, 12:55 PM
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That is the reason why I specifically cleaned out the holes for the bolts, to make sure they would endure a full clamping force, and all the bolts were clean with NO oil. That way the readings would be as close as possible. And I torqued it and assembled it.
Sounds like you could do either. He claims that's the reason why our friends HG blew.
Sounds like you could do either. He claims that's the reason why our friends HG blew.
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02-11-2009, 12:56 PM
#8
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This stuff should really be written on the damn package when you buy the bolts.
I wonder..after the fact, is it too late? I've heard to re-torque the head bolts after putting a few hundred miles on, but other than that?
I wonder..after the fact, is it too late? I've heard to re-torque the head bolts after putting a few hundred miles on, but other than that?
02-11-2009, 01:01 PM
#9
I just finished a HG job and all I was ever told since day 1 was to replace the head bolts. I've done this on all my HG jobs over the years and never had a gasket go after. Per the previous post hand tightening, I have practiced the same for years. I made sure every surface and every bolt and bolt hole were clean and that I could hand tighten everything. I leave my air tools in the drawer more than I use them to be honest. Pretty much it's there for the burst of air.
That being said, the bolts came lubed up with assembly oil, so I left it at that. (LC Engineering parts)
That being said, the bolts came lubed up with assembly oil, so I left it at that. (LC Engineering parts)
02-11-2009, 02:26 PM
#11
Done it since day one, even before Gore invented the internet. 
Anything to get the proper torque specs on that head. I worked in a couple auto shops where the mechanics said, if you have a few extra bucks, replace them. So for $40, I do. I've never done a truck twice and have put over 100K on one of them after the head job. It works for me so I'm not going to skip it. I even replaced them on a friend's Honda CRX if I remember right. That, and this should get a few comments, but I retorque the head and adjust the valves 500 miles after the job when the engine is hot.
Anything to get the proper torque specs on that head. I worked in a couple auto shops where the mechanics said, if you have a few extra bucks, replace them. So for $40, I do. I've never done a truck twice and have put over 100K on one of them after the head job. It works for me so I'm not going to skip it. I even replaced them on a friend's Honda CRX if I remember right. That, and this should get a few comments, but I retorque the head and adjust the valves 500 miles after the job when the engine is hot.
02-11-2009, 06:21 PM
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02-11-2009, 08:13 PM
#13
Meh... Bolts Shmolts...
My only point was, for me, it's just a part of the job as I did it. It worked the first time so well that I just duplicated it is all. For me, $40 was good for piece of mind. Actually, this recent head job, I just replaced the entire head, cam, valves, gaskets, headbolts, chain, tensioners, w/p (from toyota), and a few other things. (i only had an external coolant leak) I know the head bolts had nothing to do with this, but man does it have some pep now. I've never heard of oiling the bolts, you have never heard of replacing them. Just different schools I suppose. My first H/G job was back in 90 when I didn't have a computer, so I didn't get my info from the web. All good in the hood! 
02-11-2009, 08:29 PM
#15
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It is always a good idea to make sure the bolts will thread in freely & spray them with a light coat of oil. It can make a difference on the torque reading.
Will your head gasket blow? I don't think so but who knows?
Will your head gasket blow? I don't think so but who knows?
02-12-2009, 12:49 AM
#16
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02-12-2009, 03:53 AM
#17
Personally, I don't even bother with stock head bolts - - ARP Head Studs FTW
02-12-2009, 04:03 AM
#18
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Here's another Quote from EB talking about the 3VZE:
>>>*Morning!
*Quite a discussion. We always replace the head bolts on the 3VZE, mostly because of early on we had two cases of breaking them. This spoils a day quickly...
*Ever notice it is nearly always either the last one or the next to last one?...*LOL**
I personally won't make the studs, I do not own the equipment to roll the threads during the forming process. Sure, I could set up and cut the threads, this is much weaker than a formed and rolled out piece. *More work, too and I'm lazy.......All it takes is one little stress riser and the stud can break.
Usually breakage with bolts is due to the threads creating resistance, they stop turning. The same can happen with a stud if the nut end threads are not completely free and lubed. Once they stop slipping as they are torqued, you are now twisting the shaft of the piece. I have had a couple of cases of folks breaking brand new bolts, this is the cause of that.
If the shaft of the fastner is actually twisted rather than tightened into the block, it is not creating clamping force at all, even though the torque wrench may read accurate load.
Yep, it can break. So before we even think of going to maximum torque, we clean the threads in the block with a chaser, (NOT a tap)..Then we oil the threads and spin the bolt all the way in and out with our fingers. This assures they are clean and lubed.
Then we pull them to 50%, all of them. ... back off 1/4 turn and repeat, note each time it will turn a tad more before 50% is reached. This is because the threads are bedding in. We do this 5 times, then we go to 75%, then to 100%, all done. We do this with ALL new fastners...it assures a more even clamping force, inconsistant clamping force is the number 2 cause of early head gasket failure..(heat is number one)
It takes some time, sure, but it takes less time than pulling the head back off...Hope this helps.....*EB
*Quite a discussion. We always replace the head bolts on the 3VZE, mostly because of early on we had two cases of breaking them. This spoils a day quickly...
*Ever notice it is nearly always either the last one or the next to last one?...*LOL**
I personally won't make the studs, I do not own the equipment to roll the threads during the forming process. Sure, I could set up and cut the threads, this is much weaker than a formed and rolled out piece. *More work, too and I'm lazy.......All it takes is one little stress riser and the stud can break.
Usually breakage with bolts is due to the threads creating resistance, they stop turning. The same can happen with a stud if the nut end threads are not completely free and lubed. Once they stop slipping as they are torqued, you are now twisting the shaft of the piece. I have had a couple of cases of folks breaking brand new bolts, this is the cause of that.
If the shaft of the fastner is actually twisted rather than tightened into the block, it is not creating clamping force at all, even though the torque wrench may read accurate load.
Yep, it can break. So before we even think of going to maximum torque, we clean the threads in the block with a chaser, (NOT a tap)..Then we oil the threads and spin the bolt all the way in and out with our fingers. This assures they are clean and lubed.
Then we pull them to 50%, all of them. ... back off 1/4 turn and repeat, note each time it will turn a tad more before 50% is reached. This is because the threads are bedding in. We do this 5 times, then we go to 75%, then to 100%, all done. We do this with ALL new fastners...it assures a more even clamping force, inconsistant clamping force is the number 2 cause of early head gasket failure..(heat is number one)
It takes some time, sure, but it takes less time than pulling the head back off...Hope this helps.....*EB
02-12-2009, 10:37 AM
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some engines you HAVE to replace the head bolts, these are called "torque to yield" - where you are actually torqueing the bolt to the point just before it reachs "plastic deformation." Not sure if the 22RE is torque to yield, but either way, once they are used a few times they will start to weaken and should be replaced.
Personally, I don't even bother with stock head bolts - - ARP Head Studs FTW
Personally, I don't even bother with stock head bolts - - ARP Head Studs FTW
That said, the FSM specifically tells you to lightly oil the threads of the bolts and the underside of the bolt heads before installation on the 3VZE. When I looked, there was no such mention of that in the head installation procedure for the 22RE.
02-12-2009, 06:30 PM
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On my 22re they were oily when taking them out, i just thought it was natural. So I used them to remove the old motor, thought about reusing them, but they had 45 degree bends in them, I figured that wouldnt lock the head down properly so i got ARP, will never spend that much again for a pointless procedure.
Any one want to go golfing? I been wanting to hit up 18 holes (no pun)
Any one want to go golfing? I been wanting to hit up 18 holes (no pun)
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