ehertz

Hello trainwreck, yes and yes. The previous owner told me that he thought it was the head gasket, but in taking down the motor, I found that the timing chain had worn through the cover into the water pump housing. I found the broken pieces or the guide in the oil pan. The oil was nasty, like a milkshake. Spent a lot of time clean that stufff up.

Trainwreckinseattle

Did you replace the bearings or at least look at them?

ehertz

No I did not.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I would expound on what TrainWreck said, .....few thoughts, however, I'm short on time, sooooo,

Most problems I've seen with this issue have either been fuel or spark related. From reading up a bit, it seems more often that a bad coil or secondary can cause this problem. I don't have time to read back right now, and I'm trying to throw in my 2c on a couple VERY similar threads, ...so I can't remember, but, ....Didn't you have a possible issue with the wiring to the Coil or secondary? Not saying, if you did, that it's the source of the problem, ..nor that the coil is likely to be. Just bringing it up as I've found 2 threads, earlier(sorry, on a diff computer, so I don't have the links) for 22re's that would idle fine and then fall flat under load. The coil readings on both of them when they were told to test them were 'BAD'. They replaced them and voila, problem solved. NO WAY am I saying, "OK, just buy a coil, then this, then that", hahaha. Can't even remember if you've ohmed yours out, ..sorry.

Just a thought after trying to research a lil for ya.

I have to ask, before I go for a few, ......You said you "pulled the TPS and checked it".....I'm assuming that you mean you pulled the throttle body with the TPS attached, no? The reason I ask is that it's VERY hard, ...no, I would think IMPOSSIBLE to properly check it's operation if it's not on the Throttle Body(you need to insert feelers, etc.) If you could clarify, Hertz?

PS> GREAT on the figuring out the cam/crank gear relationship.....lil confused on how that could happen. Didn't think the harmonic could go in any other way(although I've heard of ppl trying to mount them backward, hehe. Maybe it's a "Made in China" model, eh? lol.)

Trainwreckinseattle

When a timing chain guide fails either the whole thing or parts of it fall into the pan. Usually it also breaks a couple pieces of the front cover as well. There the pieces get hit at a high rate of speed by the crank since plastic wants to float in oil. These small pieces then get sucked up by the pickup tube, partially blocking the screen.
If the chain wears through the front cover the water is then forced into the crank case, which mixes with the oil making "milkshake" this milkshake coupled with low oil pressure from a partially blocked pickup tube damages the bearings. The damage can be a little or heavy, one doesn't know unless they pull a few and visually inspects them. More times than not after this the bottom end will start knocking within 10,000 miles. If the full rail fell into the pan and was never cleaned out, within a few thousand miles the entire pickup screen will be blocked and that 10,000 mile estimate will probably be cut in half.

On a side note. Even simple "milkshake" from a blown headgasket will damage the bearings. It's not quite as bad usually because a blown headgasket doesn't have the multiplied effect of also having a blocked oil pickup from a timing chain guide and broken timing cover guide pieces.

Trainwreckinseattle

I have seen this problem a few times. The harmonic balancer is rubber isolated, so it can seperate and rotate giving a false TDC reading. It is of my belief this most commonly happens when people hot tank them to clean them up. I don't recommend hot tanking harmonic dampeners !!!

ehertz

Checked the tsp this morning. With the Ohm meter set at 20 I got 582 on the VTA E2, nothing on the IDL E2, nothing on IDL wide open, 571 on VTA E2, and 725 on Vcc E2. So Im off to the junkyard!

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Hertz,

True, ...the VTA-E2 reading, being at 571, should bring you within specs on the IDL-E2. It appears as though the latter mentioned IDL portion of the unit COULD be fried. However, did you try to adjust it according to 4Crawlers thread? Also, I don't mean to be insulting, ...Just asking, but you did insert the proper feeler gauges between the plate/stop, right? That reading at VTA-E2 with "no feeler inserted" should be between 300-800 I believe, ...so it seems right. But the rest require a feeler inserted. I'm sure you did, just making sure to save you a trip and the cost if applicable, lol.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the info, TW. As a matter of fact, my harmonic and crank had spun out the cog key to where only 1/16" or less of the key was left when I pulled the crank bolt to originally do a timing chain. My bearings were also notched pretty bad ,.... even though my guide hadn't broken just yet.

ehertz

I did use the proper feeler gauge as instructed in the link you sent. DEAD! $30 at the junkyard for a replacement. I will take the feeler gauge and OHM reader.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Take a screwdriver too, and if you have your throttle body off, ...take it with you and install it on there, then test it and see/make sure you can adjust it into specs. Sometimes they'll give readings and show resistance on every setting, but can still be bad and not be adjustable to where you need it. If you don't have the throttle body off, and you have no time to do it, maybe ask them for one just to test the TPS with. I'm guessing you're not getting the Throttle body and TPS for 30, .....so if that's true, that's why I suggest bringing yours if it's feasible.

If it checks out ok, MAKE SURE you adjust the stop screw(if needed) before you start testing the TPS, k?

Best Wishes on the HUNT, Hertz! BTW, I had a 66GT/K Model HERTZ Rent-a-Racer Mustang(Black with Gold Stripes).....I wish I'd never sold it, ...I see them going for like 50G's in the condition mine was in with the Hypo Motor! Grrrrr, lol. Heck, if I had all of my vehicles I've bought, fixed up and sold, today, .....let's just say I could sell em all and have a NICE PAYDAY! LOL. Oh well, live and learn, eh?

Night, Mark

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Meeting next town over at 11am....But wanted to see if you've found yourself a TPS that you could verify was working on a TBody with the stop screw adjusted properly, etc.???

Happy Hunting, Hertz! lol

Mark

ehertz

NOne were good at the J-yard. I am picking one up tonight new from Auto zone new. Thanks for the tips thought!

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Sweeeet! Best wishes on the swap out! Hope it solves a HUGE portion of your issues! IF, indeed, that original was 'bust'...THEN IT SHOULD!

Let us know,

Mark

ehertz

Weeeeelllll....the TPS replacement did not work. Humph! Got back from the initial test drive which is usually about 2 blocks and advanced the timing, and tried again but to no avail. I also pulled the ECU fuse to reset the computer. I have no check engine light on. I checked the codes and got a #1-no problems.

So far to recap I have replaced:
Plugs/wires
Fuel pump
Fuel filter
PCV valve
TPS
Air Filter
All rubber fuel lines

This on top of a timing chain/cover/gears, h-gasket.
I do notice that there is an unusual amount of blue smoke when the truck is running. Other than that it idles fantastic and runs great until I rap out the RPMs when it falls flat on its face. When I am idling I can rev the RPMs with no problems. The motor cuts out only under load. I also want to mention that the problem did not occur until about mile 35 of a 40 mile test drive after the h-gasket/timing replacement. It ran without a problem until I tried to get onto the highway and it suddenly fell on its face. By letting off the accelerator slightly it picks back up.

I have checked the compression, and got 170-165-170-160. I have also followed the fuel lines and replaced the rubber ones. I removed the charcoal filter and blew through it. I have to blow fairly hard to get air to pass. I am not sure what the resistance should be. I also blew through the gas tank relief lines and they were clear. I detached the exhaust to eliminate the possibility of a clogged cat converter. Again I have no codes. Should I try to check the AFM (air flow meter), or O2 sensor? The truck has all new gaskets from the head up. Is it possible though that the intake did not get a good seal? I used Toyota FPG and felt good about the job. I did not have any issues putting it on, except I snapped a bolt getting that stupid heater core line on. So because of that I really don’t want to have to pull the manifold! Sorry about the lengthy post, but guys I am at a loss….?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

Blue Smoke? Hmmmmm, well, I'm not trying to be negative, Hertz, ...and I know there are a couple reasons for Oil/Gas mixing and causing this smoke....but it's usually due to Oil leaking past the rings and mixing with not yet burned or unburned fuel, then creeping out the back. This, FOR CERTAIN, if it's happening, will also DESTROY a CAT, ...even a new one. Rich is one thing, but Rich and Oily exhaust is not usually a good sign. HOWEVER, your compression being so good is very puzzling, and wouldn't tend to lean most people toward "rings"...'unless'......and thus, I have to ask, ....

Did you do a leak down test? Are you doing the compression test by the FSM, first dry, then wet, etc., etc....>? The leak down is ALMOST free(2Cents of oil) and can be VERY telling. I'm not EVEN suggesting that it's your problem, Hertz....but I'd DANG SURE rule it out if it were my rig. Ya know? With that compression, the motor would appear to be fairly freshly rebuilt, yeah?....but if they've done ANYTHING wrong, I.e., used the wrong rings or didn't break it in properly.....well, then it could cause problems like you're seeing.

I'll wait for others to chime in.

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

PS> Just because your problemSSSS aren't all solved, doesn't mean the TPS didn't fix "part of them", ya know? At least, if you're SURE you've done it correctly, can help you to rule out yet another thing. I mean, you were having an IDL code, correct? Now you're not, ....I would think that at least means you didn't replace the TPS for nothing, right?

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

From myhonestmechanic;

Blue Smoke: Blue smoke
is caused by engine oil entering the cylinder area and being burned
along with the fuel air mixture. As with the white smoke, just a small
drop of oil leaking into the cylinder can produce blue smoke out the
tailpipe. Blue smoke is more likely in older or higher mileage vehicles
than newer cars with fewer miles.

How did the engine oil get inside the
cylinder in the first place? The car has many seals, gaskets, and
O-rings that are designed to keep the engine oil from entering the
cylinder, and one of them has failed. If too much oil leaks into the
cylinder and fouls the spark plug, it will cause a misfire (engine miss)
in that cylinder, and the spark plug will have to be replaced or cleaned
of the oil. Using thicker weight engine oil or an oil additive designed
to reduce oil leaks might help reduce the amount of oil leaking into the
cylinder.

*******************

There are also many examples of valve seals leaking and causing this, Hertz. I think the leak down is a very good "next" thing to do, if you've not done so, ok? I know even Turbo-seals can cause this...but since you're not running one, that's out as well, lol. Just using as an example of how many things can do this. Sometimes it's from a previous condition and it's actually leaked into the exhaust and needs a while to burn off. That can be dangerous to verify, as you might not want to be running it for any extended period of time until you can verify the leak down test, etc., ok?

ehertz

Yes I was having to codes but those are cleared up now. No I DO NOT mind replacing parts at all. the thing is over 30 years old. Replacing components gives me piece of mine even if the problem is not fixed. The smoke is minor but I thought it may help to mention it. I did not notice it until installing the new TPS. The motor had not been taken apart until I did the H-gasket etc. It was all factory. so the chances of the rings being wrong are slim and none. The compression test was done according to the Chiltons book. Remove the coikl wire and all plugs, crank with gas pedal floored. I will look into the FSM. I was very happy (and proud) of my intial reading though!

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

I PROMISE, Hertz.....I'm not trying to freak you out, and I'm in NO WAY suggesting that's it. I mention this, rather, because IF IT IS, by some TINY chance, leaking past the rings, ....well, you want to be careful and VERIFY whether it is or not. When you do the 'wet test', it will almost alwayssssss have a different reading, and my Haynes even mentions the 'wet' portion of the compression test. It's done by squirting a small amount of oil into each plug hole(one at a time), and then retesting the compression on the cylinders, taking notes of the 'difference' in the compression from dry-to-wet. (Read instructions to BE SURE you're doing it right)

You had mentioned to another poster, "No, I didn't", I believe, on checking the bearings, etc.(I believe he asked that because you'd said you'd done the oil pan gasket as well, in that post.....NO?)

Maybe you could just clarify a couple things, ok?

1. You've done the head gasket and timing chain kit, correct?
2. Have you done ANYTHING else?....{i.e., new valves, seals, etc}???
3. Did you re-ring it?...Or did I remember right when you said "the PO rebuilt it"???

I'm basically wondering whom did what, ya know? And, if a rebuild was done recently......by whom, and is it under warranty, etc., know what I'm saying? Because, ...sometimes, when you buy a vehicle that was 'someone else' project before yours....things can still go wrong, even with factory parts, etc. A good example is that some people on here buy the Engine builder heads, ya know? well, the performance head that's ported, etc., with oversized valves?....it has to be 'decked' according to Ted's specifics......which I believe is 'Zero' on the deck(piston clearance with top of cyl). If it's not decked properly, it can destroy the cam, valves, all kinds of things, ....and as I said, it's just an example. If the PO, for instance, didn't break in a newly rebuild motor properly, ....well, it could appear to give you good results on the dry test, but then when you do the wet one, ....one cylinder can jump like 15# from the dry results.....That's a sign, for sure, that you have to verify the leaking down from there.

Make any sense? lol.

See, you've just re-adjusted the valves, right? Well, what if one of them was at it's limit against the seal, etc.....it could then be adjusted PERFECT, like you've appeared to have done...but if it's leaking past the guides, seals, etc., ...it's still going to wind up causing oil to mix with fuel, ..thus, blue smoke. Trust me, I'm sure Thook and others who know more than me will help you through this/tell me I'm a dork, whatever, lol. Just don't be afraid to do the wet and leak down test if you can(You might want to have a mechanic do the leak down... There are ways to do a home-leak down, but it's best if it's done with proper gauges, etc. And it's different than a compression test....Somewhat opposite)........
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