44Runner

Rear steer? Why? And certainly why with a 44? I think that is a bad idea.

I don't think a 44 would last long in a rear steer application. Do you need rear steer? All you are doing is adding another weak link to your drive train and a lot more weight to your rig. A bad combo.

superpile

Mainly cause I want to try it and I've got all the junk laying around to try it but the shorten axle shaft. I'll limit the turning angle to 20 degrees or less and run stock shafts for a while to see how they last. I've seen it done on a few rigs and with the amount of abuse I've seen the 4340 inners and outers take with a set of yukon super joints and stock drive flanges I feel that it will last in a light weight buggy running a yota drive chain and running 38s or 39s. I've seen them survive full throttle assults on lower two with a built 4.0 HO pushing 37 krawlers and a much heavier rig than what I'm building. I watch a similar set up with ctms and warn shafts in a d44 twist a 1/8 wall 1310 shaft in two and not break the axles with them turned. Plus if it doesn't work out I can slide the yota rear I'm running now back under it.
Never know till you try.

westy44runner

superpile -

here is the info on the dowel pin upgrade:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...hreadid=233101

westy44runner

It might be a good idea to run ARP hub and knuckle studs as well, especially if you are running 39s hard.
Its a cheap investment that could save time and money in the long run...150 for both roughly.
check out Front Range Off Road for the ARPs.

superpile

you the man Westy, thanks for the link I'll get to here shortly.
Input on the rear steer idea? Opinions, if I do it I'll go with some 37 MTRs I'm pretty sure on some alloy wheels cause that is such a light combo.
44Runner what you think of that combo with the rear steer and chromy everything with drive flanges and super joints?

44Runner

Honestly I can't say for sure. My gut says that a front 44 just won't last long out back. The setup will add considerable weight to your rig and considerable expense when you could just throw a basically stock 8" back there. If it is worth it for you to have rear steer, try it.

I would ask this question over on pirate. I bet there are a few people that have some real world data to add to this. I'm sure someone has done this before. Then you can figure out how it held up and how heavy the rig was. That is the info you really need to figure out if you want to do this.

superpile

couple pics of some stuff.

superpile

23 spline input

westy44runner

The Toyota Pickup/4runner section on Pirate has a few individuals that are VERY knowledgeable about building 4 - links and getting the geometry right..I would highly suggest taking some pics and posting them over there. BoggerWelds will be able to give you some good help.
As far as the 44 out back...I agree with 44runner, be cautious, definitely ask around on Pirate, I know however not many guys with Toyotas run rear steer so finding some good info may be tough to find but some of the buggy guys should be able to help.
Alot of guys run D44s up front, but you really have to beef them up as you do a front toyota axle to get them to last with 37" + tires...so a rear 44 I would be skeptical being that it sees alot more stress and combined with rear steer could spell disaster..why not sell the 44 and just do a 60 - seems logical to me - a couple hundred more for a D60 (if that) will most likely save you money in the long run, not having to fix broken parts. the weight of the rig will make a big difference...
Go 60s...40s...btw I think longfield is coming out with a Dana 60 Chromo birfield - try that with rear steer.

westy44runner

Here are some links you may find useful:
Hub Testing (Toyota):
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...field+chromoly

Dana 60 Chromoly Birfield:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...field+chromoly

look at the size of that joint compared to a chromoly toyota birfield.

superpile

well my 4 link was laid out on solid works when I worked for atlas prescion tooling and I was doing tooling design and layout. I stessed and cycled in cosmos and found less than an 1.500 inches of axle steer so doing the geometry isn't a problem. My rear works great I just want rear steer.
The 60 thing sound great but a front 60 chevy goes for over 850 on average on ebay right and locally they want as much as 1400 but average 1200. I have the 44 and flat top knuckles and joints and drive flanges and 6 lug spindles and high steer arms and calipers etc. Plus it is a lottttt lighter than a 60 and insane more ground clearance than a 60. By putting the front into a rear it is increasing the strength by making the rear a full floating setup yea the steering joints can become a weak link but if you limit turning somewhat it isn't that much of an issue. a 60 might be pimp and the thing to do right now but I really don't think a built 44 is a bad place to start. Besides everything costs way more for a 60 and I don't have one to start with.
I'll post on pirate and see if they have any input. I'll shoot you the link once it is up.
Thanks westy for the links the 60 bir is sweet, to bad I don't have anything to put them in. or could afford them.

westy44runner

If money is an issue - to me it would make ALOT more sense to make sure you have a BUILT front axle that can handle the abuse and a dana 44 is BARELY going to hold up to those tires...it will but as we all know, everything breaks and a 44 isnt all that great when your talkin 40" tires...but hey maybe you have a light foot!
anyway, my point being why try to do so much, just build up the front axle and worry about rear steer later down the road IF you find out you need it.
besides if you are building a formula toyota to compete..i believe they are not allowed to have rear steer and they MUST have toyota parts. FYI.
good luck...keep us updated.

44Runner

you got your suspension steer figured, but what about your squat/anti-squat? That is really a more important thing to figure out. Suspension steer is simply a function of link lengh and angle and travel and is for the most part a no brainer. I doubt I will even be taking the time to calculate it, just eyeball. Do a search for this and you will come across the formulas needed to calculate it.

Rear steer is a parlor trick. If you really want it, ok, its your rig. I still say save your money and some weight on your rig and go with a built 8"...

David

superpile

And you guys say to ask on pirate. I think I'm getting plenty of input here.
My links are set on a 10 degree angle lining them up with the top of the transmission bellhousing face. The links are double triangulated at 50 degrees on the top and 30 degrees on the bottom, with uppers being 65% of the lowers. There spacing is 8 inches apart vertically at the axle and at the frame. By lining up on the bellhousing top face I got a really good squat (just enough to notice watching it) on take off for climbing and luanching. I have zero pinion angle change through out the useable range. Using the rear suspension winch I can suck the rear down and desend with unbelievable ease and stablity.
One very important thing not brought up was that the yota 8 inch is paid for. I added up costs in tabs, new pads, reman calipers, good shafts inners/outers, super joints, new ball joints. Yikes, I'll just spend that on the long 30 kit for the front. You both brought that up, beef the front and run with the rear. I can have a very heavy foot when I get frustrated at an obstacle, I've been accused of raping it to get over some things (usually right after I sling parts of it from under neath) but hey it isn't a road rig just a trail pile.
I order my crawler plate on thursday after I make the house payment, just keep telling my self this place is worth it its worth it ...
Anyways, this is exactly why I wanted to post here, you guys are seeing the other side I'm to excited or stubborn to want to see. Oh yea this is just a fun pile not a comp pile. It cost to much to enter those events unless your sponsored. I like watching them compete but I'm more interested in just having a good time/being stupid in my rig.

westy44runner

ok so no rear steer?
if you are sticking with the toyota 8" rear...look at front range off road, brian sells a full floater kit.

im sure a front toy 8" or D44 would work good if built up property, (Longs/CTMs and chromoly shafts...
marlin is also coming out with 6 stud knuckles soon to match their 6 stud hy steer arms...it gets EXPENSIVE fast.you just need to decided how much insurance on your axle is too much..