ManyMods

I called NGK today to get further clarification on my choice of plugs for my '02 4R w/ SC. I did this because I read a thread that gave me great concern due to the stated belief that using Platinum plugs with a SC was not advised.

I spoke with John (877-473-6767, #2, #2) who sounds like he really knows his stuff. He's the same guy I talked with last week. He said he is very familiar with the Toyota / TRD issues because he works very closely with one of the top guys at TRD engineering.

I told him that I had heard the following: "Platinum plugs do not fair well in a supercharged engine ... the Platium pieces don't conduct well when put into a forced induction motor." John said that is FALSE and a misconception.

Note & Disclaimer: I am relating from my sketchy notes. For those techies that are on par with John's engineering knowledge and expertise, I invite you to call him because maybe then YOU can be more succinct in an explanation than I. He said that all of these plugs are made with either a nickle or copper alloy ground strap and electrode. Platinum is only a coating that makes them more efficient and allows them to last longer. The stock plugs will wear out very quickly in a SC'd application. With Platinum plugs it is important to select the correct heat range because they produce more heat and burn cleaner. The work on a double burn principal!!! TRD even recommends Platium and Iridium plugs. This was new news to me, since he never mentioned that before, but we were talking about my specific '02 4R. Other 4R models may be different. With Iridium plugs, should you dare to regap them, you will have to play around a lot more in order to get the correct gap for a given application because they are very sensitive to gap changes.

I said to him that I understood that we should narrow the gap by .004 for every 50hp increase. John said that they actually say -.004 for every 75-100hp increase, BUT that applies to changes in compression ratio, not necessarily to a SC'd application.

I asked John if I am still all right installing one step colder NGK BKR6EKPB-11 (#3452) Laser Platinum plugs on my '02, that has a SC and no other engine mods, with a .044 gap setting. He said, absolutely that was correct and I should have no problems and get good life and performance out of those plugs.

I hope this helps someone and possibly provides clarity or a stepping stone for further explanation from someone more articulate than me.

ManyMods

I just had another conversation with John at NGK. He is the guy who works with all the racers, be it NASCAR, IRL, NHRA, on plug choice and he says he has helped them win. He is the one that goes to Japan and is invloved with the testing of plugs in various applications. He says that the only true way to test a plug as to its effectiveness in a given application is to do Preignition Testing. To do that you have to have special equipment like a thermal transducer and thermal couple plugs. NGK makes these plugs but they only sell them to the industry.

As for the composition of the plugs, they are all copper core plugs with nickel sleeve. The Platinum plugs have platinum welded onto the back of the dround strap and onto the tip (?) of the electrode. When going from an OE plug to a platinum plug, rule of thumb is that you do not necessarily make a lateral move. It is most likely that you should go down one heat range because platinum and iridium plugs burn hotter.

John also has a relationship with a top guy at TRD and he has bounced my concerns off of him. He suggests that I go ahead with the platinum plug at one step colder and put in a lower thermostat. I got the feeling in the conversation that there may be some movement toward recommending the 7th injector like they are now using in the Tundras but he would not say that directly. He also agreed that I could not open up the intake beyond the OE setup given the experience I had.

The guys in Yotatech are discussing the fuel mapping and timing changes that Dr. Z is recording with his NA vehicle. The mapping is going to have a critical effect on performance and one way to fool the engine into tuning is to change to a lower thermostat. Beyond that, I would be affraid to start messing with the OB-2 ECU on this vehicle unless I absolutely knew what I was doing. I do not know if the ECU's are interchangeable, but I would like to see someone swap out their +/- '96 ECU with a '01-'02 ECU and see if there are any changes. I think that Toyota made some subtle changes for the '01-'02 vehicles that make it more compatible with the SC, but that is just my WAG.

ravencr

I talked with John too, and he originally recommended the plugs you mention. But that's just if you run the S/C and that's it. If you are planning on doing all the fuel mods, deckplate, elbow, etc. then he recommended the following plug:

BKR7EIX-11 Part #: 6988

So, that's what I bought!

Chris

dukestr

Make sure you install the TRD Low Thermo too. I have the 1-step colder plugs (BKR6EIX-11) and the Low thermo and was still running a bit hot. Discussed at the tail end of this thread

Bumpin' Yota

very interesting reading - however one really newbie question here....

I bought a set of Bosche platinum 4+ plugs and installed them a while back and remember a tech at my local Toy dealership saying that I'd never get the engine to "...run right." I honestly do not know the heat rating or even what that is, but was there any merit to the tech's claim and should I go back to NGK?

I have the old 3.0L v6 in the 2nd gen 4R - stock engine save the high flow air filter....lol

ravencr

Hey Dukestr,

ARe you saying your CHT was still hot running the 1 step colder plugs and the TRD thermo? If not, what temperature was showing hot. I'll read your thread you gave me. By the way, the plugs I bought are supposed to be 2 steps colder.

Chris

dukestr

This is what I meant Chris:


Note the engine temp reading...I was just cruising at 56MPH and it is already at 185 deg. even with the 1-step colder plugs and the TRD Low Thermo. I am not certain how much the 2-step colder plugs will reduce this (or even if it will )

ravencr

Is this with or without the fuel mods? Also what piece of software is this that you're using?

Thanks,

Chris

dukestr

If you followed the .thread it will explain that I did these tests without my fuel mods and also discusses the usage of the BR-2 for capturing the data. You can also go to my website and click on "Performance Modifications" -> "fuel delivery mods". I did a write-up of my findings there too.

ravencr

Thanks for the info. Looks like the BR-2 would be a pretty good tool to have around while testing everything out.

Thanks,

Chris

ManyMods

I just got a response from my friend who just got back from Germany. On many occasions he has proven to me and many others his ability and brilliance when it comes to electrical engineering and matters so related. Here is my question to him and his reponse. FYI ....

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I am in a debate with some guys about what kind of plugs to put in my
> 4Runner with the supercharger.
>
> It's not pinging now but I want to change the spark plugs and have had two
> conversations with NGK Tech about heat ranges and what type plug to use.
> The OE plugs are copper dual ground strap plugs. I purchased NGK Laser
> Platinum plugs at a one-step colder heat range. Everyone BUT the tech guy
> at NGK is telling me not to use platinum plugs. NGK says that it is a
false
> myth and a misconception that the platinum plugs won't work. NGK says that
> they are copper core with a platinum coating and IF you select the proper
> heat range they will work better than the copper plugs. I could go on with
> this but I want to know what your opinion is on this. I am hoping that the
> guy from NGK was right because he sounded like an engineer and spoke with
a
> lot of authority. You'd REALLY like him. hehehe.

Peter -
The tech at NGK is absolutely correct - provided you get the right heat range, a long life platinum plug is a great choice. The problem - and the myth - comes when you use the WRONG heat range plug for the job. The platinum can actually cause tiny not spots that bring on further pre-ignition (detonation) and
worsen the issue. Go with the NGK techs recommendation of a platinum plug one range colder than stock and you'll be fine.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> end of correspondence

Well, that's all I can offer until I have a chance to see for myself through practical experience. I am going to install the NGK3452 plugs and if that doesn't work, I will go down another heat range PLatinum plug before I admit defeat.
Peter

ManyMods

I didn't want to start a new thread so I am tacking this update on here. Some are interested in what is going on with my lean=fuel smell/ ping/ poor performance condition ...

I spoke with my dealer rep and he told me that when he spoke to "JOE" :rolleyes: at TRD he was told to treat this problem exactly the same way he would treat a NA powered vehicle. :wtf:

I have an appointment to take the truck in for the TRD tranny cooler, TRD thermostat and possibly to install my NGK #3452 plugs next Friday ...if I don't install them before. I can't wait to see what fun and games we go through.

My guy says that he will have to decide if we are looking for a vacuum leak or a lean condition. :rolleyes:

I am a pretty good listener and he dropped a clue by saying that in the past, when there was fuel smell, it went away eventually. Ah HA! So he has experienced this problem before ... and I am only the second one with a 4R that he has installed a SC on. :pat:

FattyCBR

Did you already buy the TRD tranny cooler? If not it's rather overpriced considering you can get a larger cooler from Summit for about 1/4 to a 1/3 of the price. I ended up just using a Hayden stacked plate for a medium sized vehicle.

ManyMods

Hey Milan,
I'm a dyed in the wool POSER ... if it doesn't say Gucci I ain't innerested.