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Inorganic ZINC silicate primer for rust prevention...the real deal?

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Old 06-28-2012, 10:50 AM
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Inorganic ZINC silicate primer for rust prevention...the real deal?

Been doing some reading around in preparation for a major underbody/frame rust removal and repaint project on my 4runner. Encountered all the rust converter, por-15 stuff and epoxy primer, but this caught my attention as possibly a far superior solution used in the most demanding environments:

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications...ridge/zinc.cfm
http://ppgamercoatus.ppgpmc.com/tech...iccoatings.pdf
http://www.nesmea.uconn.edu/pdf/nesm...%20400.pdf.pdf
http://www.paintdocs.com/webmsds/web...prodno=B69VZ20
http://www.reconcoatings.com/paintda...97-676-tdb.pdf

In particular, the comparison testing for 20 years on a ocean bridge in NJ.

Applied at a dry film thickness of 75 microns on SA 2.5 abrasive blast-cleaned steel, both water-borne and
solvent-based zinc silicates show excellent performance with excellent scribe protection for periods of
10,000 hours.

Zinc epoxies, applied at the same dry film thickness on SA 2.5 abrasive blast-cleaned steel show coating failure at saltspray exposure periods of 1000 hours. Depending on their composition, blistering and face corrosion began to occur.

R. Ramsey of the Florida DOT compared the relative performance of zinc rich formulations with different organic binders. The increasing order of performance was phenoxy chlorinated rubber and epoxy.

He also reported the results on the performance of un-topcoated zinc rich coatings on a Florida bridge in maritime exposure:

- excellent 18 years performance of the zinc silicate coating
- poor 18 months performance of a zinc rich phenoxy primer
- general superiority of inorganic zinc primers compared to organic zinc primers

It was concluded by him, that many of the organic zinc rich products tested, appear to protect primarily as a barrier rather than cathodically.

The excellent performance of un-topcoated zinc silicates reported above, is in line with the experience we have achieved with large projects, where a single coat of 75 microns of a zinc silicate has been used:

�� Portal Crane, Danish shipyard. 80 Meter high portal crane with a span of 140 metres has been protected with one single coat of a zinc silicate coating at 75 microns for a period of 18 years. Although after this period the coating was in
excellent condition, a topcoat was applied for cosmetic reasons.

�� Chemical plant, Botlek, The Netherlands. Excellent corrosion protection has been obtained with a single coat of a zinc silicate coating applied at 75 microns dry film thickness in the heavy chemical industrial Botlek-area near Rotterdam.
For cosmetic reasons, topcoats have been applied on the various parts of the plant, 7 to 10 years after the plant was put in operation.

�� Decks 98000 T crude oil carrier (La Rabida). Single coat of zinc silicate applied at 75 microns on decks provided excellent protection for a period of 13 years.
A comparative test program was made with the exposure of test panels of 1 m2 coated with three and four coat systems, consisting of a zinc silicate prime coat and respectively two and three epoxy coatings. After exposure for 10 years in an industrial marine atmosphere in the Botlek/Rozenburg area in the Netherlands, following results have been reported (see also pictures 1 and 2):

Coating system dry film thickness Surface corrosion Scribe corrosion
zinc silicate/epoxy intermediate/epoxy topcoat 300 my none none
zinc epoxy/epoxy intermediate/epoxy topcoat 300 my none 4 cm
zinc epoxy/2 epoxy intermediates/epoxy topcoat 375 my none 2,5 cm

Last edited by Damian Sanders; 06-28-2012 at 05:31 PM.
Old 06-28-2012, 11:27 AM
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Don't over think this...

Put a good epoxy primer coating (PPG DP-90) once the metal has been prepped, then put your choice of top coat on it. Done. No rust.
Old 06-28-2012, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by snobdds
Don't over think this...

Put a good epoxy primer coating (PPG DP-90) once the metal has been prepped, then put your choice of top coat on it. Done. No rust.

You looked at this, right? Where they painted a bridge over saltwater in NJ with 47 different types of paint/coating system, and epoxy was one of the worst...

http://www.nesmea.uconn.edu/pdf/nesm...%20400.pdf.pdf
Old 06-28-2012, 05:29 PM
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Also found this to be quite interesting about how it actually works:

http://pacificsouthwest.net/assets/d...olMeasures.pdf

It's basically a paint on galvanization. From what I gather, the bridge application was not cleaned to 100% bare metal, there can be light rust painted over.

I'm going to try to get some of the PPG product in the first post, it's part of their industrial line.
Old 06-28-2012, 06:56 PM
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Your comparing apples to oranges. Twenty years ago, there was no two stage epoxy primers like the ones we have today. Plus, an epoxy primer needs a top coat to be most effective, I never saw them mention anything about top coating the bridge test sections.

The PPG stuff is amazing, if the metal is total bare and free of oils or rust. However, with as much as the stuff cost, there is no way it's cost effective to paint an entire bridge with the stuff.
Old 06-28-2012, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by snobdds
Your comparing apples to oranges. Twenty years ago, there was no two stage epoxy primers like the ones we have today. Plus, an epoxy primer needs a top coat to be most effective, I never saw them mention anything about top coating the bridge test sections.

The PPG stuff is amazing, if the metal is total bare and free of oils or rust. However, with as much as the stuff cost, there is no way it's cost effective to paint an entire bridge with the stuff.
Re-read the studies. The inorganic zinc primer typically gets an epoxy intermediate coat, follow by a polyurethane top coat. However it can be used with just a top coat. And I'm going to guess that the pricing on this stuff is in the same range as most other high grade paints.

Also, this does not need to be applied on completely rust free metal, only SSPC-SP6, which is some micro rust:

SSPC-SP6
Sa2
NACE 3

Commercial Blast Cleaning - Removal of mill scale, rust, rust scale, paint or foreign matter by the use of abrasives propelled through nozzles or by centrifugal wheels, to the degree specified. A Commercial Blast Cleaned Surface Finish is defined as one from which all oil, grease, dirt, rust scale and foreign matter have been completely removed from the surface and all rust, mill scale and old paint have been completely removed except for slight shadows, streaks, or discolorations caused by rust stain, mill scale oxides or slight, tight residues of paint or coating that may remain; if the surface is pitted, slight residues of rust or paint may by found in the bottom of pits; at least two-thirds of each square inch of surface area shall be free of all visible residues and the remainder shall be limited to the light discoloration, slight staining or tight residues mentioned above.
^this is key

Apples vs. Oranges? No, I'm talking apples vs. a paint system that is proven and widely used in the most demanding industrial high corrosion applications. Think about the salt exposure of a bridge or ship.

Paint chemistry has advanced much at all in 20 years? Because IMHO it really hasn't. Most of the specs are quite old. If anything commercial products have become safer and less potent. Not quite sure what you mean by "two stage" epoxy primer (aside from direct to metal then top coat).....2 part epoxy paints and primers have been around for far longer than 20 years, and are widely used. Here's a DP-90 datasheet dated 1993:

http://www.tcpglobal.com/kustomshop/...DOCS/P-122.PDF

Last edited by Damian Sanders; 06-28-2012 at 09:09 PM.
Old 06-29-2012, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by snobdds
Don't over think this...

Put a good epoxy primer coating (PPG DP-90) once the metal has been prepped, then put your choice of top coat on it. Done. No rust.
+1

proper prepped panels you should not have an issue with rust as long as the rust was removed prior and the panel again was prepped correctly. sealed primed base and clear polish for that high gloss shine...
Old 06-29-2012, 06:16 AM
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Just as a point of clarification, the "organic" zinc primers are basicly an epoxy primer filled with zinc. It seems that the inorganic zinc primers come the closest to full on galivnization, making a layer of 80-85% zinc.

Here's another good discussion on these inorganic zinc primers...

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=251828

dcfrush (Petroleum) 18 Aug 09 21:58
For corrosion to occur you need an anode, a cathode, and an electrolytic solution; remove any one of these from the equation and you will eliminate the corrosion mechanism. The anode will experience an oxidation reaction and the cathode will experience a reduction reaction, or more simply the anode will lose electrons and the cathode will gain electrons. Whether a metal is anodic or cathodic is relative to the metal it's in contact with and their distance from each other in the galvanic series. Zinc is anodic to carbon steel, so the zinc layer will give up its electrons before the carbon steel will (sacrificial anode). This is also why a lot of coatings systems will call for an inorganic zinc primer.

Hope this helps!
unclesyd (Materials) 10 Sep 09 22:47
A Zinc rich primer will lay dormant until it damaged, like a scratch, which exposes the Zinc. At this point the Zinc will do it's thing.
I have some ZRC+epoxy+urethane that have been in service at the fish house since the eighties. There are a few cases where ZRC+chlorinated rubber have lasted even longer.
Old 06-29-2012, 06:24 AM
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This seemed to be fairly interesting, not sure if it's 100% accurate.

http://www.duluxprotectivecoatings.c...%20Primers.pdf

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Old 06-29-2012, 06:44 AM
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So all this research and money to put a zinc coating on a 20+ year old frame that, in the end, will be just as good as a epoxy primer and top coat. Not to mention at a fraction of the price.

If you’re so worried about rust, how do you plan on coating the inner frame? After 20 years there is probably a lot of dirt and rust hiding in the boxed sections of the frame.

I guess I retract all I've said so far because you seem to have your mind made up. You clearly need to start fresh and build a brand new frame that has zero rust both inside and out. Then go to a hot dip galvanizer and have the entire frame dipped. Then you will be able to sleep at night.
Old 06-29-2012, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by snobdds
So all this research and money to put a zinc coating on a 20+ year old frame that, in the end, will be just as good as a epoxy primer and top coat. Not to mention at a fraction of the price.

If you’re so worried about rust, how do you plan on coating the inner frame? After 20 years there is probably a lot of dirt and rust hiding in the boxed sections of the frame.

I guess I retract all I've said so far because you seem to have your mind made up. You clearly need to start fresh and build a brand new frame that has zero rust both inside and out. Then go to a hot dip galvanizer and have the entire frame dipped. Then you will be able to sleep at night.
Thanks, that was useful, I'll get right on it. Lol. People actually are doing that you know....

Actually, I'm looking for the most effective way to rehab the frame without pulling the truck apart. I'm doing it because there are holes that need welding, and the rust needs to be stopped before it gets worse. Truck is 15 years old.

There is no possible way to get all the rust off the inside and outside of it, short of removing the frame and acid diping it. I intend to at the minimum mechanically clean the inside of the frame of loose rust, then cosmoline. Or at most - mechanically brush, then phosphic acid, re-brush, flush with water, compressed air, then cosmoline or some sort of coating. Possibly the zinc, but it seems like it would be hard to get a proper coat thickness spraying inside the frame.

Outside the frame will be much easier. I like this zinc stuff because it seems that it can be appiled to good effect on metal that has some amount of rust.

Last edited by Damian Sanders; 06-29-2012 at 07:03 AM.
Old 06-29-2012, 07:57 AM
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You would probably get along great with this guy:

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f88/...-frame-251481/

Old 06-29-2012, 08:02 AM
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Sorry it I'm upsetting the apple cart here. Clearly the common knowledge is to "epoxy primer everything, because it's the best".
Old 06-29-2012, 08:22 AM
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Have you ever even used epoxy primer? I am talking about a good automotive grade epoxy primer. I get the idea I am going back and forth with someone who is aginst it, but has never used it.

The stuff is amazing and it does not allow rust to form. I think once you actually use it, your opnion will change. Zinc and galvinised coatings are great, but for a DIY approach, it's kind of unrealistic. Keep that in mind...
Old 06-29-2012, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by snobdds
Have you ever even used epoxy primer? I am talking about a good automotive grade epoxy primer. I get the idea I am going back and forth with someone who is aginst it, but has never used it.

The stuff is amazing and it does not allow rust to form. I think once you actually use it, your opnion will change. Zinc and galvinised coatings are great, but for a DIY approach, it's kind of unrealistic. Keep that in mind...
I deal with items painted with epoxy paints at work. I've sprayed 2k clear out out of a spray can. I've got an air compressor and harbor freight spray gun. Average DIY skill level, have worked with spray paints.

Last edited by Damian Sanders; 06-29-2012 at 11:10 AM.
Old 06-29-2012, 11:09 AM
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http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=223662

structuresguy (Structural) 12 Aug 08 13:12
NASA and the Air Force use Inorganic Zinc coatings for all their exposed structural steel at Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. The steel framed launch towers are right on the beach, fully exposed to salt spray from the ocean.

I have personally done work on these towers. Some are quite old and still in very good condition. Some areas, which may have been more prone to standing water or poor drying, have shown some corrosion damage, though proper periodic maintenance could have helped these areas.

IO Zinc can be field applied, and touched up in the field. The critical step is proper sand blasting and time after blasting until painting. The steel needs to be blasted near white, and then painted immediately. This can be tricky for large areas in the field.

If I could not HDG steel, I would use IO zinc.
Old 07-13-2012, 06:53 AM
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After a bunch more reading, I decided that trying to obtain an inorganic zinc primer, preping properly for it then coating, would be far too time consuming and expensive, if not impossible for me to do.

Ended up selecting an organic (resin) based single part zinc paint, that can be applied on to clean, partially rusty surfaces (SP3 prep recommended), with a high percentage of zinc in the dry film. He's what I ordered, $50 shipped for a quart:

http://www.aervoe.com/paints_coating...ich-7007Q.html
http://www.sturdybuiltonline.com/1-Q...int_p_685.html
http://www.aervoe.com/techdata/17007pds.pdf

This stuff supposedly handles 2000 hour salt spray testing and meets MIL-P-21035B, which has the following test:

4.5.8 Salt spray resistance. Salt spray resistance shall be determined in
accordance with ASTM B 117, except that three 10.6 by 15.24 by 0.32 cm (4 by
6 by 1/8 inches) mild steel panels in accordance with MIL-S-22698 shall be
used for this test. Surfaces shall be blasted with a medium grit (pass
through 0.071-cm (710-micrometer) and retain on 0.042-cm (420-micrometer))
sieve conforming to RR-S-366 prior to coating. A 1.27-cm (0.5-inch) wide
strip shall be left uncoated along the longitudinal center of test face of
each panel to observe degree of cathodic protection provided by the coating.

Two coats of paint shall be brush-applied uniformly to all remaining surfaces
of each panel to a minimum thickness of 0.0508 millimeter(2 mils). A drying
time of 24 hours between coats and 48 hours for the second coat shall be
observed. The panels shall be exposed in the salt spray apparatus for 288
hours, then evaluated for percent rust on the coated and uncoated areas. The
uncoated area of the test panel shall not be completely rusted. The coated
area shall show less than 5 percent rust.
Rust streaking shall be
disregarded in determining these percentages. The average of the three
panels shall be determined for each area. Film failure of coated areas shall
be noted and recorded.
Several companies make this type of paint. It can be topcoated. You can brush it on or spray it. When I get it and start applying I'll provide some feedback.

Last edited by Damian Sanders; 07-13-2012 at 06:56 AM.
Old 07-13-2012, 09:25 AM
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Coming from the world of Land Cruisers, which are infamous for rust problems, POR-15 is my weapon of choice.

Wire brushed bare metal + POR-15 (brushed on) + primer of your choice + chassis black.
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