hub centric or Lug centric
07-05-2003, 06:33 AM
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hub centric or Lug centric
Where is the breaking line with the hub centric wheels and the Lub centric wheels? I have heard that the 3rd generation wheels are Lug centric, and therefore need to have the wheels balanced using a Lug adatper on their balancing machines.
I'm having a real issue with the local Discount Tire trying to balance my wheels and tires. I had them use the "fingers" on thier Hunter balancing machine, and the job came out worse then before. Now at 60mph, the front-end shake is really bad. :pat:
My tire setup is BFG 285/75R16 on 4Wheel parts Rock Krawler Steel wheels.
Anyhelp would be greatly appreciated!
I'm having a real issue with the local Discount Tire trying to balance my wheels and tires. I had them use the "fingers" on thier Hunter balancing machine, and the job came out worse then before. Now at 60mph, the front-end shake is really bad. :pat:
My tire setup is BFG 285/75R16 on 4Wheel parts Rock Krawler Steel wheels.
Anyhelp would be greatly appreciated!
07-05-2003, 06:41 AM
#2
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Hub-Centric:
A hub and wheel design in which the wheel is centered on a raised center portion of the hub. The lug nuts/bolts then serve only to hold the wheel in place on the hub. Most tire balancing machines use a conical wheel mounting mechanism to locate the wheel/tire on the machine for balancing.
Lug-Centric:
A hub and wheel design in which the wheel is centered by the lug nuts/bolts themselves, often with clearance between the center of the hub and the cut out in the wheel. Toyota wheels are lug-centric and as such require a special lug-centric fixture to be properly balanced on a cone-type balancing machine, as the wheel center hole may not be exactly centered on the lug center point.
4Runner wheels are lug centric. That's the whole reason for the Haweka adapter, to center the wheels on the machine. If they were hub centric you wouldn't need it, hence Jaos wheels. You don't need to use the Haweka if your own Jaos wheels, since they are centered at the hub.
4Runners in general have a very sensitive front end, and it anything is off just the slightest bit, you will feel it. Not every lug centric wheel needs the Haweka, but you will on the 4Runner is you want the best balance with your stock wheels.
Jaos brand wheels are hub centric, thus cost MUCH more $, and you won't need the Haweka from what customers tell me.
A hub and wheel design in which the wheel is centered on a raised center portion of the hub. The lug nuts/bolts then serve only to hold the wheel in place on the hub. Most tire balancing machines use a conical wheel mounting mechanism to locate the wheel/tire on the machine for balancing.
Lug-Centric:
A hub and wheel design in which the wheel is centered by the lug nuts/bolts themselves, often with clearance between the center of the hub and the cut out in the wheel. Toyota wheels are lug-centric and as such require a special lug-centric fixture to be properly balanced on a cone-type balancing machine, as the wheel center hole may not be exactly centered on the lug center point.
4Runner wheels are lug centric. That's the whole reason for the Haweka adapter, to center the wheels on the machine. If they were hub centric you wouldn't need it, hence Jaos wheels. You don't need to use the Haweka if your own Jaos wheels, since they are centered at the hub.
4Runners in general have a very sensitive front end, and it anything is off just the slightest bit, you will feel it. Not every lug centric wheel needs the Haweka, but you will on the 4Runner is you want the best balance with your stock wheels.
Jaos brand wheels are hub centric, thus cost MUCH more $, and you won't need the Haweka from what customers tell me.
07-05-2003, 08:32 AM
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Does any place even have the Haweka adapter. I have had no luck finding one at Discout tire or NTB. I even checked at the dealership, and they had no idea what i was talking about, but the guy i asked was an idiot.
07-05-2003, 05:02 PM
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I will bet you a box of doughnuts that your problem really is not a balance problem, but instead a road force problem.
On these trucks and especially on a tire of that size road force is going to be a much bigger issue then balance.
You can read through the info on my site to get an idea of what I am speaking of:
http://www.GadgetOnline.com/vibration.htm
You WILL NOT get a smooth ride on these truck UNLESS you can get the tire match mounted so that the road force is LESS then 15 Lbs.
I recently had some Goodyear MT/Rs mounted on my truck. One tire was rejected right off the bat with a road force of over 45 Lbs. I had three that were less then 15 and one that was 20 Lbs. The shop ordered a new tire to replace the one that was rejected and that came in at less then 15 Lbs. So, now I have 3 that are under 15 and one at 20, and yes that one at 20 does induce some vibration, but it is SO much better then it was before.
Find a shop that has the Hunter GSP-9700 Road Force Balancer and make sure they use the flange plate adapter when they mount the wheel to the balancer and then keep the tires that are less then 15 Lbs and have the once that are over replaced. You will then see a substantial difference in the way your truck rides.
To put is simply, you can have a perfectly balanced tire that will shake the hell out of your truck do to high road force variation. I do not think your are going to have your problem solved by rebalancing the tires EVER. You have to get them match mounted so that they have the least amount of road force variation BEFORE they are balanced, then and only then do you have a hope of getting a smooth ride.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
On these trucks and especially on a tire of that size road force is going to be a much bigger issue then balance.
You can read through the info on my site to get an idea of what I am speaking of:
http://www.GadgetOnline.com/vibration.htm
You WILL NOT get a smooth ride on these truck UNLESS you can get the tire match mounted so that the road force is LESS then 15 Lbs.
I recently had some Goodyear MT/Rs mounted on my truck. One tire was rejected right off the bat with a road force of over 45 Lbs. I had three that were less then 15 and one that was 20 Lbs. The shop ordered a new tire to replace the one that was rejected and that came in at less then 15 Lbs. So, now I have 3 that are under 15 and one at 20, and yes that one at 20 does induce some vibration, but it is SO much better then it was before.
Find a shop that has the Hunter GSP-9700 Road Force Balancer and make sure they use the flange plate adapter when they mount the wheel to the balancer and then keep the tires that are less then 15 Lbs and have the once that are over replaced. You will then see a substantial difference in the way your truck rides.
To put is simply, you can have a perfectly balanced tire that will shake the hell out of your truck do to high road force variation. I do not think your are going to have your problem solved by rebalancing the tires EVER. You have to get them match mounted so that they have the least amount of road force variation BEFORE they are balanced, then and only then do you have a hope of getting a smooth ride.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
07-05-2003, 08:41 PM
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so cool
Man, thanks for the info. I'm going to the Discount in Albuquerque. I know they have a Road-Force balancer down there. And I know that I will have them check to make sure the Road Force is under 15lbs. Thanks for the info 
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07-06-2003, 03:54 PM
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It seems that people just refuse to get it.
The flange plate adapter should be used on all wheel that you intend to mount on your Toyota truck no matter what kind of wheel you think you have.
This has become such a problem Toyota published a TSB that requires the use of the flange plate adapter when balancing wheel on ALL TOYOTA VEHICLES.
You all can go to some fly by night discount chain store that has a bunch of flunky tire jockies that will tell you that they have the "Toyota" adapter that is nothing more then a forcing cone labled "Tacoma" and leave there not happy, but with a good discount. Then go back, and back and then to some other joint and never get it right.
If you want the smoothest possible ride from your vehicle on the first visit here is what you should do.
First find a very good shop that has the GSP-9700 Road Force Balancer and has some experienced people that know how to use it properly and actually care. I know all that might be hard to find, but ask around.
Then buy your new tires from them even if it cost more. If you buy them from some discount place like Tire Rack and you get one that has excessive road force what are you going to do with it? If you buy them from the shop putting them on, they can quickly get the tire replaced and get you squared away. If not, it is not thier problem and it will be upto you to try to get a new tire that works well.
So, lets review:
The flange plate adapter should be used on ALL wheels you intend to mount on your Toyota.
You should buy your tires local from the shop that is going to put them on and tell them up front that you will not accept any tire that is greater then 15 Lbs of road force variation.
You should seek out a shop that has the Hunter GSP-9700 Road Force Balancer and the people that know how to use it properly.
If you follow those three steps you have the greatest chance of getting your new tires installed and get the smoothest possible ride on your very first visit; or you can go back a 100 times and never get it right.
I get email all the time from people that had a never ending vibration problem and then when they follow my recommendations and solve their problem I get thank you emails. I get at least 3-5 EVERY WEEK. It must be sound advice.
It is your time, money and truck, you decide what is best for you.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
The flange plate adapter should be used on all wheel that you intend to mount on your Toyota truck no matter what kind of wheel you think you have.
This has become such a problem Toyota published a TSB that requires the use of the flange plate adapter when balancing wheel on ALL TOYOTA VEHICLES.
You all can go to some fly by night discount chain store that has a bunch of flunky tire jockies that will tell you that they have the "Toyota" adapter that is nothing more then a forcing cone labled "Tacoma" and leave there not happy, but with a good discount. Then go back, and back and then to some other joint and never get it right.
If you want the smoothest possible ride from your vehicle on the first visit here is what you should do.
First find a very good shop that has the GSP-9700 Road Force Balancer and has some experienced people that know how to use it properly and actually care. I know all that might be hard to find, but ask around.
Then buy your new tires from them even if it cost more. If you buy them from some discount place like Tire Rack and you get one that has excessive road force what are you going to do with it? If you buy them from the shop putting them on, they can quickly get the tire replaced and get you squared away. If not, it is not thier problem and it will be upto you to try to get a new tire that works well.
So, lets review:
The flange plate adapter should be used on ALL wheels you intend to mount on your Toyota.
You should buy your tires local from the shop that is going to put them on and tell them up front that you will not accept any tire that is greater then 15 Lbs of road force variation.
You should seek out a shop that has the Hunter GSP-9700 Road Force Balancer and the people that know how to use it properly.
If you follow those three steps you have the greatest chance of getting your new tires installed and get the smoothest possible ride on your very first visit; or you can go back a 100 times and never get it right.
I get email all the time from people that had a never ending vibration problem and then when they follow my recommendations and solve their problem I get thank you emails. I get at least 3-5 EVERY WEEK. It must be sound advice.
It is your time, money and truck, you decide what is best for you.
Gadget
www.GadgetOnline.com
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