Frame prep for paint

Shoretaco · 07-05-2007, 11:58 AM

Iwant to prep my frame for painting. It is showing signs of rust and I was thinking of using POR 15. What do I need for prep work and how do I apply it.

chopitrakeit · 07-05-2007, 12:10 PM

wire wheel what you can, pressure wash the all the loose flakey stuff off it, let it dry in a heated garage overnight and do the por15 or loctite extend treatment.

both por15 and loctite extend need a little rust to cure.

make sure the frame is not full of mud and rust or it will ooze water forever.

Rock Slide · 07-05-2007, 01:38 PM

I used my 18v cordless drill with a wire wheel attachment to knock all the loose rust off.

I also did my underside in 2 coats using 3 quarts of POR...just be sure to wear multiple layers! Oh and you can apply it with either a spray gun or a few cheap paint brushes (I went the cheap paint brush method.)

I hope you know what you're getting yourself into...If I had to do it all over again, I'd definitely go with an aerosol type undercoating and here's why:

Had a YT member ask me this a while back about undercoating and here's what I responded with (glad I saved this by the way). You might experience a different outcome than mine, but at least take a moment to read my .02

:

Quote:

As soon as I got back home with my new 4Runner (here in Alabama), I quickly researched undercoating methods.

Since my runner had endured 4 years of harsh winters in NY, the underneath had a ton of surface rust. Granted, it only had 22k miles on it when I bought it and the paint was in near show quality condition, but the underside looked like it had multiple nukes exploded underneath it.

Check out: POR-15. Contact them and get as much info about the product as you can. Then ask them for a dealer in your area (you cannot buy from them directly) and they will be able to sell you the product. They also sell a product similar to a paint "primer" that goes on first. You might want to consider that. (Personally, I did not opt for it.)

POR-15 is a popular name in the undercoating business...as this is the stuff I used. You simply have to "paint" it on w/ a paintbrush...unless you're able to get an air gun and spray it on. It is a PITA to apply and the entire process is very labor intensive. Plan to dedicate an entire weekend to this project if not more - this includes the application and drying time. However, if applied properly, por, will probably outlast your vehicle and protect your vehicle from the formation of rust and stop the spread of any existing rust.

I have a set of ramps that I used for this project. After you've got your 4Runner up in air, it's time to remove all the loose rust. I took my cordless drill and hooked a metal brush attachment to it and went to town sanding down the entire underneath. Oh yeah, if you don't already have a mechanics creeper, get one. Mine came in very handy.

Then you begin to apply the product in stages. There is a "prep" stage with one product and a "finish" stage with another product. The finish coat should be done in 2 coats. You also have to apply the finish coat rather quickly, because when you go to apply the 2nd coat, you don not want the 1st coat to be dry. The 1st coat still needs to be some what "tacky" to the touch when you go to apply the 2nd coat or it will not adhere properly. Once you are done, the vehicle has to sit for 24 hrs to dry.

Like I said, just call POR customer service and they can give you better info than I can about it. Just be careful not to get any of the stuff on your skin. If you do get it on your skin, it will not come off for at least 7days. Trust me, I know. Wear multiple layers of clothing from head to toe. (Kinda sucks you've decided to do this in the summer. That's probably one reason I did not wear enough clothing.) I wore jeans and a long t-shirt and after I was done, I was covered from head to toe in this stuff. The bad part was, some of the larger spots soaked through my clothing and got on my skin. I had big black spots all over my body for a week. (Looked like a milk cow for a week!)

Now, for the "quick-n-easy" fix that works just as well IMO, check your local auto parts stores...ie Napa, Auto Zone, Advanced Auto or something similar. They stock many different varieties of undercoating in aerosol spray cans. Cannot think of any brand names off hand, but if you go this route, buy a few different varieties and test each one before you decide on a final selection. Some cans go on thicker, while some produce a "brown" colored undercoat and others produce a "black" color. I prefer black myself. Do get something in a "rubberized undercoating" if you go this route. I've had the best luck with this type. (Again, if you'll check my 4Runner profile, you will find a picture of the underneath of my driver side slider. There you will see a picture of this rubberized undercoating I'm describing.)

I've used both por and aerosol spray cans as mentioned above on the underside of my 4Runner and truthfully, the rubberized undercoatings found in spray cans are just as durable and are much easier to apply. Touch ups are much easier if needed as well. Less mess too!

Here is a third option - You can even go to some Toyota dealers and they will undercoat your vehicle for you with their own product and equipment. Granted they will charge you and it will probably look lke crap when it is done, but I am just making you aware of this option. I looked into this before deciding to do it myself.

Also, Google the following phrases:

1. Vehicle Undercoating
2. Rubberized Undercoating
3. Aerosol Undercoating

That will turn up even more ideas than what I have mentioned. I have heard good things about the 3M Rubberized Undercoating. Be sure to look into that one.

Now if you have a spot on your frame that rust has completely eaten through, then that is a different story...can't help you there. But if you simply want to keep the surface rust from spreading and/or forming, the ideas I've listed above will guide you along the way.

-Rock

Like I said, this was just my experience with POR, but you might have better luck.

Good luck!

89-4run · 07-05-2007, 08:20 PM

Rock, I'm pretty sure I'm the person you've pm'ed the message too

As Rock informed me, I did extensive research on the internet. I've found a gazillion products to try. Yes, POR15 does seem to be the most popular, but I have found some similar products that should do the work. What Rock said that really caught my attention, is that if he had to do all over again there are easier ways to treat it.

The product I just ordered and going to give a try is Zero Rust. This is a comparable to POR-15 from what I've read but without all of the prep work. A side note about POR-15, if you half-ass the job and don't use all of their products in a 3 step stage, people have had bad results with it. Also, the iso's in POR-15 are extremely harmful to your health, so you have to use a serious respirator.

The prep stages for ZR are: remove loose rust, degrease and apply. It doesn't contain any harmful ingredients to your health. Since I have primarily surface rust in the weld seams, ZR should work nicely. On the more heavy areas that I plan to wire wheel down to the metal, I will use a product call Picklex-20 to neutralize any remaining rust and then apply ZR in 3 coats allowing 45 mins in between to dry.

I'm not bashing POR-15, nor have I ever tried it. I'm only going off of countless hours researching the internet.

Here is some information I have gathered on the internet:

This guy used POR-15 and 3M Rubberized Underseal and looks awesome!
Nissan Patrol

This guys used POR-15 on his Jeep, looks good to me!
Jeep

Here are some pics of guy usin Eastwood's products on the axle, looks good to me!
rear axle

Here is a test done between POR-15 and Zero Rust:
I can't find this pic, thought I bookmarked it. It showed results of an engine block in salt water after a long period of time. Zero Rust showed no rust coming through but POR did. They used Picklex-20 under the ZR.

I'm not telling you what product to use, but as Rock said to me do some research. I found few negatives on the internet about ZR, and the same about POR. I don't have major rust, so I'm going with something that involves less time and works just as good.

Here is a good forum I searched through. THe forum is owned by an autobody place that switched from POR to selling ZR. They are also the ones that did testing between POR and ZR. Biased? Maybe, but I read enough on the internet to see that others thought ZR was just as good if not better.
http://autobodystore.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5

I spoke to the Len today who seems very knowledgable and got me what I needed.

To be honest, my head hurts researching all of the brands out there.
Here are some links:
Eastwood
Rust Bullet
POR15
Zero Rust
Ordered ZR and Picklex20 from here - spoke to Len

As another guy summed up the cons and pros of ZR in a post elsewhere on the internet:

Quote:

POR-15, much experience with most of car except outer skin painted with it.
+ almost indestructible, can't be chipped, impervious to water and most
chemicals (wipe it off with Acetone and brake fluid takes months to
attack it). High gloss surface. Flows out well with brush marks almost
disappearing (I sprayed most of mine). Cures very hard overnight.
- contains Isocyanates (very toxic) and respirator (best available and
fresh) or fresh air system and face shield should be used when spraying,
good ventilation (and respirator probably) when brushing. If you get it
on your skin you wear it. Limited shelf life once opened (weeks, months
depending on how well you seal it and how much water got in while open).
Prep degrease must be good - will fisheye with contaminants. Expensive (~$30/qt)

Zero-Rust, much less experience recently got a couple of rattle cans and
used on small parts. I painted the black parts of my ZF with it, topped
with their clear. Looks very nice. Didn't learn of it until after most
of my painting was done.
+ goes on very nicely (semigloss) and easily. Supposed to have 2000 hr
salt spray test. Good shelf life. Non toxic. More color choices. Cheaper
(much ~$11/qt I think). Available in spray cans.
- not solvent or immersion water resistant. More brittle and can be chipped.

I don't have first hand long term experience with either. Others that do
think both are great.

You can always buy PORs starter kit and try it and see if you like it. I got a minimal order of ZR and gonna try it on a few parts as well.

Now, if you want to top coat it with a Rubberized Underseal, there is 3m but also a product I found that everyone says is the "best".
Link to it: Wurth Underseal
I have not tried it but might coat my wheel wells with it.

Another product I had to try and see if it did work is:
Safest Rust Remover
I use this primarily for my rust bolts/nuts. In the engine bay I would take a few off, let them soak overnight, and the next day they looked brand new. If the bolt is rusted really heavy, might take longer... I used a nylon brush every once in awhile and the rust would come right off. To prevent further rust, I sprayed them with: Fluid Film
The Rust remover really takes everything off, so I got a can of the Fluid Film to further protect. I'm NOT saying you shuold use this product on your frame rust but if you take off a few parts, and got some rusty bolts/washers/nuts its good for that, I think.

As you can see by my long post, I only made myself confused and hope that ZR gives me what I'm looking for.

One last thing, this company that does Landcruiser restorations use either POR or Zero Rust, so that made me feel good about my purchase.
Landcruisers

I hope that you are now just as confused as I am

Shoretaco · 07-06-2007, 02:31 AM

Wow, outstanding information. Great research. I think I will go the ZR product and post the before and after pictures. Thanks

Rock Slide · 07-06-2007, 08:21 AM

89-4run,

Yep, you were the one I PM'd

. Glad to see you took my advice and researched the heck out of it!

From your post, looks like you really found some great information on undercoating. Nice work.

Shoretaco,

89-4run is right when he said:

If you half-a$$ the job (with POR) and don't use all of their products in a 3 step stage, people have had bad results with it.

To be clear, I did not half-a$$ mine, but I didn't use all their products in a 3 step stage like one should. Now, the rust is beginning to poke through in spots

. In other spots, the POR is just peeling off in quarter sized pieces. Looks like I'll be redoing mine sooner than not.

89-4run · 07-06-2007, 05:35 PM

Since Rock helped me a ton thought I would spread the love too

Another side note on prep work. Whether it be POR or ZR, if you power-wash or hose off the underneath it has to be absolutely dry everywhere, even in the nooks-and-crannys! I read using a air compressor is the best route to make sure all water is gone. If not, then you are bound to get bad results with any product.

And make sure you use a good degreaser too!

isaac338 · 09-25-2007, 08:51 AM

this is all really great info, but the main problem with toyota frames is the rust inside them. There's not enough weep holes and there's no way to get at the rust inside the frame. All the old trucks rusted from the inside out, and all the new trucks will too!

07-05-2007, 11:58 AM	#1 (permalink)
Shoretaco Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Manahawkin NJ Posts: 52	Frame prep for paint Iwant to prep my frame for painting. It is showing signs of rust and I was thinking of using POR 15. What do I need for prep work and how do I apply it. __________________ 2000 Tacoma 2.7l Deckplate Mod Efan and Auto trans cooler Lc Engineering Header BFG 31x10.5x15 stock rims

07-05-2007, 12:10 PM	#2 (permalink)
chopitrakeit Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 110	wire wheel what you can, pressure wash the all the loose flakey stuff off it, let it dry in a heated garage overnight and do the por15 or loctite extend treatment. both por15 and loctite extend need a little rust to cure. make sure the frame is not full of mud and rust or it will ooze water forever. __________________ 1995 xcab with blown up 3.0, soon to be 3.9 Cummins.Plans for SAS as well. 1989 4Runner daily driver, 3.0, 3.5 body lift, 35" MTR's. 10-20=Can,NB,SJ. pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/7439309@N02/ Last edited by chopitrakeit : 07-05-2007 at 12:12 PM.

07-06-2007, 02:31 AM	#5 (permalink)
Shoretaco Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Manahawkin NJ Posts: 52	Wow, outstanding information. Great research. I think I will go the ZR product and post the before and after pictures. Thanks __________________ 2000 Tacoma 2.7l Deckplate Mod Efan and Auto trans cooler Lc Engineering Header BFG 31x10.5x15 stock rims

07-06-2007, 08:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
Rock Slide Contributing Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: B'ham, AL... 2002 4Runner Sport 4WD Posts: 1,695	89-4run, Yep, you were the one I PM'd . Glad to see you took my advice and researched the heck out of it! From your post, looks like you really found some great information on undercoating. Nice work. Shoretaco, 89-4run is right when he said: If you half-a$$ the job (with POR) and don't use all of their products in a 3 step stage, people have had bad results with it. To be clear, I did not half-a$$ mine, but I didn't use all their products in a 3 step stage like one should. Now, the rust is beginning to poke through in spots . In other spots, the POR is just peeling off in quarter sized pieces. Looks like I'll be redoing mine sooner than not. __________________ 2002 4Runner Sport 4WD My 4Runner Profile Accessories: SS 7.1 Lift Kit, WabFab 1" BL, TJM T15, Stubb Sliders, FX/TSX HID Headlight Retrofit, 1st Gen Rollbar, Tundra Brake Upgrade, Hilux Surf Field Monitor, TRD I.S. Wheels, Nitto TG 265/75s, Hella HID 4000s, Tint, Black Pearl Emblems, Clear Corners, TRD Decals, JBL Door Speakers Mods: Disabled DRLs, Disabled Keyless Entry Chirp, Disabled VTRAC/VSC/ABS, Fog Light Mod, Air Elbow Mod, Ashtray Mod, Mud Flap Mod, Rear Diff Breather Mod

07-06-2007, 05:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
89-4run Registered User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Littleton, CO Posts: 485	Since Rock helped me a ton thought I would spread the love too Another side note on prep work. Whether it be POR or ZR, if you power-wash or hose off the underneath it has to be absolutely dry everywhere, even in the nooks-and-crannys! I read using a air compressor is the best route to make sure all water is gone. If not, then you are bound to get bad results with any product. And make sure you use a good degreaser too! __________________ 2002 Sport Edition 4Runner - Goodyear MTR 265/75/16 - ToyTec Coilovers - OME 906/N86C - Ashtray Mod!

09-25-2007, 08:51 AM	#8 (permalink)
isaac338 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Halifax, NS, Canada Posts: 796	this is all really great info, but the main problem with toyota frames is the rust inside them. There's not enough weep holes and there's no way to get at the rust inside the frame. All the old trucks rusted from the inside out, and all the new trucks will too! __________________ 1994 Xtracab pickup, 180,000km 1989 4Runner, 300,000km - sold

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