Compression shot in 1 cylinder - Burned Valve? HELP
12-29-2012, 08:47 PM
#81
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ARP sells a moly-based head bolt and head stud grease for use with their fasteners, but combining that with factory torque specs will often result in broken bolts. Included in any torque spec is accounting for friction between the fastener and stationary surfaces. The moly lube reduces that friction so the same torque value will generate much more tension in the bolt than using oil.
IMO, use the factory installation method(clean threads with oil or whatever the manual says) with factory torque specs and factory fasteners.
EDIT: And good on ya for attempting something like this. You'll learn a lot, that's for sure.
IMO, use the factory installation method(clean threads with oil or whatever the manual says) with factory torque specs and factory fasteners.
EDIT: And good on ya for attempting something like this. You'll learn a lot, that's for sure.
still need an answer about gasket sealant on the corners though.. the FSM says to do it.. but I'm not sure they had a MLS gasket
12-29-2012, 09:40 PM
#82
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Personally, I always use some kind of sealer where three sealing surfaces meet. Lately a favorite of silicone replacement of mine has been Yamabond 4.
12-30-2012, 01:27 AM
#83
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Use the sealant where the FSM specifies.
Can't beat Toyota FIPG. However, Ultra Black RTV or "The Right Stuff" has always worked for me. Clean all the oil residue off before applying sealant. I use a bit of carb/throttle body cleaner on a rag.
Can't beat Toyota FIPG. However, Ultra Black RTV or "The Right Stuff" has always worked for me. Clean all the oil residue off before applying sealant. I use a bit of carb/throttle body cleaner on a rag.
Last edited by rworegon; 12-30-2012 at 01:30 AM.
12-30-2012, 04:27 AM
#84
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ARP sells a moly-based head bolt and head stud grease for use with their fasteners, but combining that with factory torque specs will often result in broken bolts. Included in any torque spec is accounting for friction between the fastener and stationary surfaces. The moly lube reduces that friction so the same torque value will generate much more tension in the bolt than using oil.
IMO, use the factory installation method(clean threads with oil or whatever the manual says) with factory torque specs and factory fasteners.
EDIT: And good on ya for attempting something like this. You'll learn a lot, that's for sure.
IMO, use the factory installation method(clean threads with oil or whatever the manual says) with factory torque specs and factory fasteners.
EDIT: And good on ya for attempting something like this. You'll learn a lot, that's for sure.
Just use oil like the FSM says.
Do clean all the surfaces with brake cleaner though regardless of using sealant or not.
12-30-2012, 05:01 AM
#86
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Depends on what kind of gasket the OEM is. Some of them suck big time. Others are good MLS gaskets. MLS is the best if you have a flat block/head.
12-30-2012, 05:38 AM
#87
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Hey Yota, good on you for tackling this yourself. I just finished replacing the head on my 22RE for the first time, and I know how you can feel lost in the middle of a project when you don't know what you're doing. Looks like you're right on track though, so keep it up! For what it's worth, I used an MLS gasket and hit the corners by the timing chain cover with Permatex "The Right Stuff", and so far so good. So take that for what it's worth (not much, but there you go).
When you get around to firing it up again. don't freak out at all the smoke coming from the tailpipe or the oil slick that's going to pop up in your coolant
. I was about to drive mine off a cliff until some friends calmed me down - it's likely you slopped some coolant in your cylinders and some oil in the coolant galleys when you pulled the head, so flush your radiator real good and drive it for a couple days and the smoke should go away. Mine did.
Anyway, just some perspective from another guy who just went through the same thing - you're not as over your head as it feels like, so don't stop now. Take your time and check your work and you'll be good to go. And I'd take the cracked manifold as an excuse to go to an aftermarket header. Think of it as a reward for all the money you're saving.
Next stop, new swaybar bushings!
When you get around to firing it up again. don't freak out at all the smoke coming from the tailpipe or the oil slick that's going to pop up in your coolant
. I was about to drive mine off a cliff until some friends calmed me down - it's likely you slopped some coolant in your cylinders and some oil in the coolant galleys when you pulled the head, so flush your radiator real good and drive it for a couple days and the smoke should go away. Mine did.Anyway, just some perspective from another guy who just went through the same thing - you're not as over your head as it feels like, so don't stop now. Take your time and check your work and you'll be good to go. And I'd take the cracked manifold as an excuse to go to an aftermarket header. Think of it as a reward for all the money you're saving.
Next stop, new swaybar bushings!
12-30-2012, 08:07 AM
#88
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Wow.. thanks for all the responses guys.
You know.. it occured to me that I don't really know it the felpro gasket is an MLS gasket or not... it sure doesn't give a lot of info. But I suppose it doesn't matter.. I'll just to it like the FSM says.
EDIT: it's doesn't specifically say MLS... but looks like it is.. it is multi layered with a steel core.
http://www.fme-cat.com/RelatedInfoWi...ermaTorque.pdf
You know.. it occured to me that I don't really know it the felpro gasket is an MLS gasket or not... it sure doesn't give a lot of info. But I suppose it doesn't matter.. I'll just to it like the FSM says.
EDIT: it's doesn't specifically say MLS... but looks like it is.. it is multi layered with a steel core.
http://www.fme-cat.com/RelatedInfoWi...ermaTorque.pdf
Last edited by Yota_Stomper; 12-30-2012 at 08:30 AM.
12-30-2012, 08:13 AM
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Hey Yota, good on you for tackling this yourself. I just finished replacing the head on my 22RE for the first time, and I know how you can feel lost in the middle of a project when you don't know what you're doing. Looks like you're right on track though, so keep it up! For what it's worth, I used an MLS gasket and hit the corners by the timing chain cover with Permatex "The Right Stuff", and so far so good. So take that for what it's worth (not much, but there you go).
When you get around to firing it up again. don't freak out at all the smoke coming from the tailpipe or the oil slick that's going to pop up in your coolant. I was about to drive mine off a cliff until some friends calmed me down - it's likely you slopped some coolant in your cylinders and some oil in the coolant galleys when you pulled the head, so flush your radiator real good and drive it for a couple days and the smoke should go away. Mine did.
Anyway, just some perspective from another guy who just went through the same thing - you're not as over your head as it feels like, so don't stop now. Take your time and check your work and you'll be good to go. And I'd take the cracked manifold as an excuse to go to an aftermarket header. Think of it as a reward for all the money you're saving.
Next stop, new swaybar bushings!
When you get around to firing it up again. don't freak out at all the smoke coming from the tailpipe or the oil slick that's going to pop up in your coolant
. I was about to drive mine off a cliff until some friends calmed me down - it's likely you slopped some coolant in your cylinders and some oil in the coolant galleys when you pulled the head, so flush your radiator real good and drive it for a couple days and the smoke should go away. Mine did.Anyway, just some perspective from another guy who just went through the same thing - you're not as over your head as it feels like, so don't stop now. Take your time and check your work and you'll be good to go. And I'd take the cracked manifold as an excuse to go to an aftermarket header. Think of it as a reward for all the money you're saving.
Next stop, new swaybar bushings!
Yes.. the money saved goes to the upgrade to an after market header. unfortunately I can't get any replacement at all for atleast two weeks... so I'm just going have to put it back together with the cracked manifold for now... but taking off the exhaust isn't really that big of a job so I'll swap it out when the header arrives.
anyways, I found a pacekeeper 2 ??? aftermarket header for about $160. that seems like a hell of a good deal seeing as doug thorleys are over $350 + shipping. but I haven't ordered them yet... so I'm open to suggestions.
Yeah.. sway bar bushings will be easy... just hope they are cheap too
Last edited by Yota_Stomper; 12-30-2012 at 08:14 AM.
12-30-2012, 09:04 AM
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I have to give you a ton of credit for taking on a job like this! Specially considering you had to buy tools, do it all yourself,and no friends with mechanical abilities to help. I think your doing a great job, and the skills, knowledge, confidance and pride your giving yourself is irreplaceable! Great work! 
12-30-2012, 09:11 AM
#91
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I have to give you a ton of credit for taking on a job like this! Specially considering you had to buy tools, do it all yourself,and no friends with mechanical abilities to help. I think your doing a great job, and the skills, knowledge, confidance and pride your giving yourself is irreplaceable! Great work!
12-30-2012, 09:57 AM
#92
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thanks guys.
you know.. I was thinking... I really don't want to hop over dollars to save pennies here...
I'm wondering if it's really worth it to just replace the head bolts. thing is.. it's a $100 which isn't cheap... but it's certainly better than a warped head.
the FSM doesn't insist that you replace them every time.. and I know damn well the shop I use would not have used new bolts.
if I was on the mainland or if I had time to ship them I could get them for $20-30 buck's it'd be a no-brainer.
Orielly's has the felpro for $101 and beck/Arnley for $50. Seems like a big difference.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/se...998&vi=1317623
Napa has the fel-pro for $89 but also has the ultra8 for just $20!!!
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Re...070091+5999999
That's a huge difference!! If I could score a set for $20 I'd do it... but are the ultra8 poor quality that I shouldn't trust?
Are fel-pro just super awesome worth 2x-5x the money?
or do I go for the middle of the road Beck / Arnley's for $50.
or do I just stick with my initial gut response of re-use the perfectly fine undamaged originals for free?
I gotta decide pretty quick here... I'll be cleaning the head for the next hour or so. I really appreciate all of you guys help with this project.
you know.. I was thinking... I really don't want to hop over dollars to save pennies here...
I'm wondering if it's really worth it to just replace the head bolts. thing is.. it's a $100 which isn't cheap... but it's certainly better than a warped head.
the FSM doesn't insist that you replace them every time.. and I know damn well the shop I use would not have used new bolts.
if I was on the mainland or if I had time to ship them I could get them for $20-30 buck's it'd be a no-brainer.
Orielly's has the felpro for $101 and beck/Arnley for $50. Seems like a big difference.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/se...998&vi=1317623
Napa has the fel-pro for $89 but also has the ultra8 for just $20!!!
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Re...070091+5999999
That's a huge difference!! If I could score a set for $20 I'd do it... but are the ultra8 poor quality that I shouldn't trust?
Are fel-pro just super awesome worth 2x-5x the money?
or do I go for the middle of the road Beck / Arnley's for $50.
or do I just stick with my initial gut response of re-use the perfectly fine undamaged originals for free?
I gotta decide pretty quick here... I'll be cleaning the head for the next hour or so. I really appreciate all of you guys help with this project.
Last edited by Yota_Stomper; 12-30-2012 at 09:59 AM.
12-30-2012, 10:33 AM
#93
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With things like this you generally want to stick to OEM unless you are upgrading. I would do a search for those other brands and see what the reviews say, don't have any experience with them personally. I either get ARP or OEM in the few cases that I rebuild a motor to stock specs (I see taking a motor apart as a reason to make it better, not just make it run lol).
If you never plan on making more power with the engine, then you could most likely get away with reusing the stock bolts or one of those cheap set of bolts. If you ever see a turbo setup in your future (and boy are they fun and so worth it), then I would look into some ARP's.
If you never plan on making more power with the engine, then you could most likely get away with reusing the stock bolts or one of those cheap set of bolts. If you ever see a turbo setup in your future (and boy are they fun and so worth it), then I would look into some ARP's.
12-30-2012, 01:46 PM
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Let me start by saying that I'm OK with this being moved to the newbie forum if a mod see's this.
I'm pretty much done cleaning my block but I'm really concerned at this point. I used 1.5 cans of CRC brake cleaner and the 3M scotchbright pads seen below
The head is really pretty rough at cylinder 1 and not quite as bad at cylinder 2. I'd get it machined.. but I'm NOT gonna remove the engine... so we can just rule that out right now.
but should I use the copper spary adhesive or put "the right stuff" over the rough parts of the block to help the gasket seal... or will putting the seal on dry be enough?
Please look at the detailed pics and advise
overview of block
Cylinder 1 overview
Cylinder 1 zoom
Cylinder 2 overview
Cylinder 2 zoom
Also.. I realized that I scuffed the inside of cylinder 2 a lil bit with the scotch bright pad when cleaning.. DOH!!! I don't think it's that bad, what do you guys think?
EDIT: now that I think about it.. the guy at the machine shop showed the the bottom cylinder head at cylinder 1 and said there was some burn or leak through or something like that at cylinder 1 that was likely THE CAUSE of the burnt valve in the first place... he explained this to me to tell me why I need the cylinder head resurfaced... so I guess these are just pics of the other half of that problem.
please advise... I'm at a stand still at this point... not sure what to do.
I'm pretty much done cleaning my block but I'm really concerned at this point. I used 1.5 cans of CRC brake cleaner and the 3M scotchbright pads seen below
The head is really pretty rough at cylinder 1 and not quite as bad at cylinder 2. I'd get it machined.. but I'm NOT gonna remove the engine... so we can just rule that out right now.
but should I use the copper spary adhesive or put "the right stuff" over the rough parts of the block to help the gasket seal... or will putting the seal on dry be enough?
Please look at the detailed pics and advise
overview of block
Cylinder 1 overview
Cylinder 1 zoom
Cylinder 2 overview
Cylinder 2 zoom
Also.. I realized that I scuffed the inside of cylinder 2 a lil bit with the scotch bright pad when cleaning.. DOH!!! I don't think it's that bad, what do you guys think?
EDIT: now that I think about it.. the guy at the machine shop showed the the bottom cylinder head at cylinder 1 and said there was some burn or leak through or something like that at cylinder 1 that was likely THE CAUSE of the burnt valve in the first place... he explained this to me to tell me why I need the cylinder head resurfaced... so I guess these are just pics of the other half of that problem.
please advise... I'm at a stand still at this point... not sure what to do.
Last edited by Yota_Stomper; 12-30-2012 at 01:58 PM. Reason: pictures weren't displaying correctly
12-30-2012, 02:10 PM
#95
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Getting it machined is what should happen. If that is not an option then you can try the copper spray and hope it holds.
See this is why I just replace the whole engine, you don't have to worry about all these nickle and dime problems that come up.
See this is why I just replace the whole engine, you don't have to worry about all these nickle and dime problems that come up.
12-30-2012, 02:51 PM
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So... how should I cover up the cylinders before spraying... should I just stuff rags in the cylinder??? also, do I need to cover up the cooling channels as well?
..and then after I spray... I should still put some of "the right stuff" in the 2 front corners by the timing chain?
EDIT: Is this crap luck or what.. the machinist told me it's VERY rare that the block would need to be machined too cuz it's cast iron steel not aluminum. Would you say this is rare... or relatively common for an engine block with 165K
..and then after I spray... I should still put some of "the right stuff" in the 2 front corners by the timing chain?
EDIT: Is this crap luck or what.. the machinist told me it's VERY rare that the block would need to be machined too cuz it's cast iron steel not aluminum. Would you say this is rare... or relatively common for an engine block with 165K
Last edited by Yota_Stomper; 12-30-2012 at 02:53 PM.
12-30-2012, 03:21 PM
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about it though.Do I need to cover up the cooling channels before spraying this stuff?
12-30-2012, 03:35 PM
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Well... I don't think the spray will mess up anything too bad as long as I have the cylinders covered... here's what I did...
now I'm gonna spray two coats on the block and gasket... put a dab of the right stuff where the FSM says to then put the head on.
now I'm gonna spray two coats on the block and gasket... put a dab of the right stuff where the FSM says to then put the head on.
Last edited by Yota_Stomper; 12-30-2012 at 04:09 PM.
12-30-2012, 04:04 PM
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Permatex Spray a Gasket says to spray both sides of gasket per TDS. It says:
DIRECTIONS FOR USE
1. Provide adequate ventilation.
2. Surfaces should be free of oil, dirt and grease.
3. Mask areas that should not be coated.
4. Shake can with ball agitator for one minute. For best results, aerosol can should be at room temperature before spraying.
5. Holding can 8 to 10 inches from the surface to be coated, press the nozzle and discharge the product uniformly. Apply to both sides of gasket. Avoid overspray. DO NOT SPRAY into engine compartment.
Allow solvent to evaporate before assembly.
http://www.permatex.com/products/pro...sealant-detail
DIRECTIONS FOR USE
1. Provide adequate ventilation.
2. Surfaces should be free of oil, dirt and grease.
3. Mask areas that should not be coated.
4. Shake can with ball agitator for one minute. For best results, aerosol can should be at room temperature before spraying.
5. Holding can 8 to 10 inches from the surface to be coated, press the nozzle and discharge the product uniformly. Apply to both sides of gasket. Avoid overspray. DO NOT SPRAY into engine compartment.
Allow solvent to evaporate before assembly.
http://www.permatex.com/products/pro...sealant-detail
