alignment problems
12-11-2002, 03:57 PM
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alignment problems
I'm new to this forum. But I have been reading it for a while and I'm really impressed at the knowledge that you guys have with your Toyotas and the mods you guys do.
I have a question. I've been having alignment problems. My 2 front tires have been wearing on the inside. I took it in 3 times already and finally the 4th time, Toyota diagnosed it as the left ball joint was not seated properly. So they "tightened 4 screws" down and it should wear evenly now. My question is this "If only one tire ball and joint was not seated properly, then shouldn't it have only been one tire that would wear unevenly?" I'd appreciate any of your expert opinions.
I have a 00 sc'd 4wd sr5 4runner.
I have a question. I've been having alignment problems. My 2 front tires have been wearing on the inside. I took it in 3 times already and finally the 4th time, Toyota diagnosed it as the left ball joint was not seated properly. So they "tightened 4 screws" down and it should wear evenly now. My question is this "If only one tire ball and joint was not seated properly, then shouldn't it have only been one tire that would wear unevenly?" I'd appreciate any of your expert opinions.
I have a 00 sc'd 4wd sr5 4runner.
Last edited by ckgoobs; 12-11-2002 at 04:04 PM.
12-11-2002, 04:41 PM
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A toe problem would wear both tires about the same. A caster problem would wear one more then the other but mostly on the outside.
Did the truck pull to one side or the other when the tires were wearing? If not then it is most likely a toe problem. It is possible that the truck can be properly aligned and then as load is put on that joint while driving it can throw things out because it was loose and cause tire wear.
You should rotate the tires and drive it for a while and see if the problem is corrected or not.
You should consider yourself very lucky that the guy working on your truck was smart enogh to find that the ball joint assembly was coming loose. If it came off you could have been killed.
I had a castle nut back off of a ball joint of an ambulence I was driving as I was leaving the hospital. The right front slammed right down on parking lot and the frame gouged a large chunk out of the parking lot. Luckly I was still in the parking lot and was not going very fast. I had just had that thing over 100 MPH getting that patient to the hospital and if it had failed then we all would have been dead.
You may want to find that mechanic and thank him.
Gadget
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Did the truck pull to one side or the other when the tires were wearing? If not then it is most likely a toe problem. It is possible that the truck can be properly aligned and then as load is put on that joint while driving it can throw things out because it was loose and cause tire wear.
You should rotate the tires and drive it for a while and see if the problem is corrected or not.
You should consider yourself very lucky that the guy working on your truck was smart enogh to find that the ball joint assembly was coming loose. If it came off you could have been killed.
I had a castle nut back off of a ball joint of an ambulence I was driving as I was leaving the hospital. The right front slammed right down on parking lot and the frame gouged a large chunk out of the parking lot. Luckly I was still in the parking lot and was not going very fast. I had just had that thing over 100 MPH getting that patient to the hospital and if it had failed then we all would have been dead.
You may want to find that mechanic and thank him.
Gadget
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12-11-2002, 05:19 PM
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Gadget
yes my 4runner did pull to the right slightly. And I will be rotating the tire soon. But shouldn't the wear of the tire be on the affected side only?
yes my 4runner did pull to the right slightly. And I will be rotating the tire soon. But shouldn't the wear of the tire be on the affected side only?
12-11-2002, 06:34 PM
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No, not really. It depends on what is out of adjustment. Toe will wear on both tires nearly equally with no pull to one side or the other normally. Caster will wear mostly one tire with a pull and mostly on the outside of one tire. There is another adjustment for camber, but I can't remember of fthe top of my head how it shows up. It has been a while.
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12-11-2002, 07:52 PM
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Caster is the angle of the Upper and Lower Ball Joints in relation to themselves from the front to the rear of the vehicle. In and of itself, Caster won't affect tire wear, but it will affect drift or pull to one side. It is repsonsible for the steering wheel's ability to return to center on it's own. It is adjusted by moving the lower control arm cams.
Camber is the angle of the tire tilting vertically outward (or inward) as seen from the front of the vehicle. This adjustment is also made by moving the cams on the lower control arm. It is Camber that can wear the inside or outside edges of the tire if too far out of adjustment one way or the other.
If you want all the alignment specs for our trucks, I can post a chart.
Hope this helps.
Dr. Z
Camber is the angle of the tire tilting vertically outward (or inward) as seen from the front of the vehicle. This adjustment is also made by moving the cams on the lower control arm. It is Camber that can wear the inside or outside edges of the tire if too far out of adjustment one way or the other.
If you want all the alignment specs for our trucks, I can post a chart.
Hope this helps.
Dr. Z
Last edited by Dr. Zhivago; 12-11-2002 at 07:58 PM.
12-12-2002, 04:27 AM
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I will have to diagree with the good doctor. Caster will absolutely cause wire if not correct and can induce a pull to one side or the other, but not usually both.
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12-12-2002, 08:37 AM
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Good Morning Gadget,
When was the last time you did an alignment? It's been a while for me, but I do remember most of my alignment angles and what each of them affect. I was present a couple of weeks ago when Jay did my alignment after we installed my springs. I asked questions to refresh my memory. Also, because I wanted to be sure, I just called an alignment shop to verify what I already knew. Caster can only cause tire wear INDIRECTLY because it has an effect on Toe-Out/Toe-In and Camber changes during turns.
Let's say for the sake of argument that your Caster was really out of spec, totally whacked. Then you went to a mall parking lot and drove around to the right in circles all day. Because your Caster was so screwed up, the Camber Change and Toe-Out would be so whacked at that point too, during the turn, that your tires would wear terribly on one edge.
So, Caster in and of itself does not DIRECTLY affect tire wear. It only comes into the picture because it affects the other alignment angles that do directly affect tire wear.
Hope this helps.
Dr. Z
When was the last time you did an alignment? It's been a while for me, but I do remember most of my alignment angles and what each of them affect. I was present a couple of weeks ago when Jay did my alignment after we installed my springs. I asked questions to refresh my memory. Also, because I wanted to be sure, I just called an alignment shop to verify what I already knew. Caster can only cause tire wear INDIRECTLY because it has an effect on Toe-Out/Toe-In and Camber changes during turns.
Let's say for the sake of argument that your Caster was really out of spec, totally whacked. Then you went to a mall parking lot and drove around to the right in circles all day. Because your Caster was so screwed up, the Camber Change and Toe-Out would be so whacked at that point too, during the turn, that your tires would wear terribly on one edge.
So, Caster in and of itself does not DIRECTLY affect tire wear. It only comes into the picture because it affects the other alignment angles that do directly affect tire wear.
Hope this helps.
Dr. Z
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12-12-2002, 08:38 AM
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Ditto on rotating the tires.
The only way to "fight" the uneven wear is to cross the tires onto the rear (i.e. front-right goes to rear-left, etc.). As for the rears, just bring them straight forward (i.e. rear-right to front-right). I guess the cross is not 100% necessary, but it is a good practice.
I had put on a 3" lift on my truck, waited a couple weeks and had horrible uneven wear on the tires (diagonal stripes). I got an alignment at Sears (some dealers don't have the right equipment to do an alignment), drove for more than a month...and the tires were still uneven.
Recently I rotated them, and they are beginning to flatten out. Meanwhile, the front tires (formerly rear) are still perfectly flat.
Sorry for rambling on...
Jim
The only way to "fight" the uneven wear is to cross the tires onto the rear (i.e. front-right goes to rear-left, etc.). As for the rears, just bring them straight forward (i.e. rear-right to front-right). I guess the cross is not 100% necessary, but it is a good practice.
I had put on a 3" lift on my truck, waited a couple weeks and had horrible uneven wear on the tires (diagonal stripes). I got an alignment at Sears (some dealers don't have the right equipment to do an alignment), drove for more than a month...and the tires were still uneven.
Recently I rotated them, and they are beginning to flatten out. Meanwhile, the front tires (formerly rear) are still perfectly flat.
Sorry for rambling on...
Jim
12-12-2002, 01:05 PM
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Quote : Suspension, Steering & Handling Course 452 Toyota Technical Training Program
______________________________________________
Caster pulls toward the wheel with a more negative value.
Excess positive caster may create hard steering, increased road shock, or steering wheel shimmy following a turn.
Insufficent caster or negative caster may result in wander or poor steering wheel return.
Caster is normally referred to as a non-tire wearing angle. Camber roll as a result of caster may wear the inside and outside edges of tires on vehicles with very high caster values.
End Quote.
______________________________________________
Found that in my training manual I had laying around.
Jay
______________________________________________
Caster pulls toward the wheel with a more negative value.
Excess positive caster may create hard steering, increased road shock, or steering wheel shimmy following a turn.
Insufficent caster or negative caster may result in wander or poor steering wheel return.
Caster is normally referred to as a non-tire wearing angle. Camber roll as a result of caster may wear the inside and outside edges of tires on vehicles with very high caster values.
End Quote.
______________________________________________
Found that in my training manual I had laying around.
Jay
12-12-2002, 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by Dr. Zhivago
Good Morning Gadget,
When was the last time you did an alignment? It's been a while for me, but I do remember most of my alignment angles and what each of them affect. I was present a couple of weeks ago when Jay did my alignment after we installed my springs. I asked questions to refresh my memory. Also, because I wanted to be sure, I just called an alignment shop to verify what I already knew. Caster can only cause tire wear INDIRECTLY because it has an effect on Toe-Out/Toe-In and Camber changes during turns.
Let's say for the sake of argument that your Caster was really out of spec, totally whacked. Then you went to a mall parking lot and drove around to the right in circles all day. Because your Caster was so screwed up, the Camber Change and Toe-Out would be so whacked at that point too, during the turn, that your tires would wear terribly on one edge.
So, Caster in and of itself does not DIRECTLY affect tire wear. It only comes into the picture because it affects the other alignment angles that do directly affect tire wear.
Hope this helps.
Dr. Z
Good Morning Gadget,
When was the last time you did an alignment? It's been a while for me, but I do remember most of my alignment angles and what each of them affect. I was present a couple of weeks ago when Jay did my alignment after we installed my springs. I asked questions to refresh my memory. Also, because I wanted to be sure, I just called an alignment shop to verify what I already knew. Caster can only cause tire wear INDIRECTLY because it has an effect on Toe-Out/Toe-In and Camber changes during turns.
Let's say for the sake of argument that your Caster was really out of spec, totally whacked. Then you went to a mall parking lot and drove around to the right in circles all day. Because your Caster was so screwed up, the Camber Change and Toe-Out would be so whacked at that point too, during the turn, that your tires would wear terribly on one edge.
So, Caster in and of itself does not DIRECTLY affect tire wear. It only comes into the picture because it affects the other alignment angles that do directly affect tire wear.
Hope this helps.
Dr. Z
I will try to draw a picture with this key board to show how caster can cause uneven tire wear.
Lets use a straight front axle truck for demonstration purposes because I think people can better visualize it.
Now if both the front and rear axles are parallel then all is fine and there is no caster problem. Now if you take the left side of the front axle and move it back say an inch the axle is now kind of pointed to the left slightly. If you drive that truck and let go of the wheel it will want to drift off to the left.
To drive straight down the road you must hold in a tad of right sterring wheel correction. This will cause the outside of the left tire to scuff and wear. If it is bad it may also present as cupping the tire tread.
The same thing can happen on IFS. If the caster of the same left front tire is toward the back more then it should be it can cause the same affect and the truck will drift or pull to the left. You will need to hold right steering wheel correction to make it drive straight down the road causing wear on the outside edge of the left front tire.
I guess you could call it indirect wear because if you let go of the wheel and let the truck stay in its left turn then there is no additional wear, but if you counter with right steering wheel correction then it will cause wear.
I hope all this makes sense.
Gadget
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12-13-2002, 12:09 PM
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.......if you take the left side of the front axle and move it back........
On an IFS, to make a caster adjustment, you adjust the cams to move the lower control arm forward or backward. Any "set back" would be minute.
Jay
12-13-2002, 12:22 PM
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Yep, and if the caster on the right side is to far forward and the caster on the left side is to far back it will have the same affect and induce a pull to the left and and cause tire scuffing, right?
If caster is off, but equal on both sides then this will not happen and should not induce a pull. It might steer oddly, but it should not pull.
Did you get chance to find out about flashing earlier ECUs?
Gadget
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If caster is off, but equal on both sides then this will not happen and should not induce a pull. It might steer oddly, but it should not pull.
Did you get chance to find out about flashing earlier ECUs?
Gadget
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12-13-2002, 12:33 PM
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Did you get chance to find out about flashing earlier ECUs?
Jay
12-14-2002, 06:20 PM
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tire wear advice
I might add to the other responses that something I find helpful in counteracting the "inside edge" wear on your tires is to have your toe set towards the "inner" end of the spec. range. I must stress that you keep within the allowable range limits. By far, the most common reason that tire wear occurs on the inside edge (fairly equally on both right and left, typically front tires) is normally due to a natural tendency of the vehicle to toe out. This means that on your 'runner (which I've seen countless times) tends to "spread" the direction of the front wheels apart (trying to direct the left front tire to the left and the right front tire to the right rather than straight ahead). In a perfect theoretical world, a toe amount of 0.00 degrees will wear tires most evenly. However, in the real world of 'runners, setting your toe roughly .10 degrees "in" (from the spec. desireable, provided .10 "in" is still within allowable limits) will help prolong the life of your tread. Talk this over with your alignment professional and I'm sure he/she will agree that you'll get more time between alignments and/or tire changes due to wear.
12-15-2002, 08:43 AM
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Re: tire wear advice
Originally posted by texyotatech
I might add to the other responses that something I find helpful in counteracting the "inside edge" wear on your tires is to have your toe set towards the "inner" end of the spec. range. I must stress that you keep within the allowable range limits. By far, the most common reason that tire wear occurs on the inside edge (fairly equally on both right and left, typically front tires) is normally due to a natural tendency of the vehicle to toe out. This means that on your 'runner (which I've seen countless times) tends to "spread" the direction of the front wheels apart (trying to direct the left front tire to the left and the right front tire to the right rather than straight ahead). In a perfect theoretical world, a toe amount of 0.00 degrees will wear tires most evenly. However, in the real world of 'runners, setting your toe roughly .10 degrees "in" (from the spec. desireable, provided .10 "in" is still within allowable limits) will help prolong the life of your tread. Talk this over with your alignment professional and I'm sure he/she will agree that you'll get more time between alignments and/or tire changes due to wear.
I might add to the other responses that something I find helpful in counteracting the "inside edge" wear on your tires is to have your toe set towards the "inner" end of the spec. range. I must stress that you keep within the allowable range limits. By far, the most common reason that tire wear occurs on the inside edge (fairly equally on both right and left, typically front tires) is normally due to a natural tendency of the vehicle to toe out. This means that on your 'runner (which I've seen countless times) tends to "spread" the direction of the front wheels apart (trying to direct the left front tire to the left and the right front tire to the right rather than straight ahead). In a perfect theoretical world, a toe amount of 0.00 degrees will wear tires most evenly. However, in the real world of 'runners, setting your toe roughly .10 degrees "in" (from the spec. desireable, provided .10 "in" is still within allowable limits) will help prolong the life of your tread. Talk this over with your alignment professional and I'm sure he/she will agree that you'll get more time between alignments and/or tire changes due to wear.
Dr. Z
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