3vze ignition timing experiments w/results
06-18-2005, 04:07 PM
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3vze ignition timing experiments w/results
Alright, so in my Haynes manual it says to rotate the distributor clockwise to retard the timing, which I'm not so sure is correct after my experimentations. Decided I wanted to advance my timing a couple days ago and I'm too lazy to buy or borrow a timing light. So I marked the distributor hold down bolt with a sharpie to mark my baseline and then rotated it about 1/8" counter-clockwise to advance the timing.
Here's the current mods:
-K&N drop-in air filter, swiss cheesed lower airbox (tons of 1/4" holes drilled), ISR delete, custom 3" intake straight from AFM to TB
-Gutted cat, 2.5" dia 14" length Magnaflow muffler (the cylindrical type), turn down right after muffler
Totally stock my truck felt like I would "come-on" to power at about 3,000RPM. You guys with the 3vz know what I mean about "coming on" to the power band like a turbo. I guess the factory exhaust is to blame for this lack of low end grunt. Well, with the mods listed above, I have moved that point to somewhere between 3500 and 4000RPM. Too high for my liking, but I can live with it.
With the distributor rotated 1/8" counterclockwise (advanced) I felt absolutely no increase in power, but the exhaust sounded different. It would also pop more when engine braking because of the small exhaust leaks I have. After a few days of driving at this setting it felt like I had even less power below 3500RPM. Well, today I decided to advance it anouther 1/8". At this point I figure I had changed the timing drastically, and the results proved it. The motor ran a little crappier for about 5 minutes of hard accelerations and then finally the ECU did something and made it run like TOTAL crap. I'm talking a major cut in power, foot to the floor and not going anywhere. I figure I advanced the timing way too far and the knock sensors picked up pinging or whatever and pulled a bunch of timing out so that it wouldn't self-destruct.
Now the weird thing is that I never ever heard it ping even once. Bog it in too low of a gear, blip the throttle on and off, pull up a steep hill, didn't hear any pinging. But the ECU thought something was wrong and did some drastic changes to make it run like crap.
Now it gets even more interesting.... Obviously I had to rotate the distributor back clockwise to get the timing right again. But instead of going back to the mild advanced setting or even back to my baseline, I decided to go an 1/8" clockwise of my baseline mark. According to my manual this would retard the timing. Well guess what, I now had more acceleration with it at this 1/8" retarded setting than I EVER had. Major increase in low end grunt and it just wanted to pull way harder.
At this point I should tell you that I did this all on less than excellent 87 octane fuel. I also have no idea how ignition timing affects a torque curve. That is something I would like to find info on. I have a hunch that it sacrifices power in the low end to give more on top. But after searching the net I couldn't find any good articles on it. Please enlighten me on exactly what timing does. I ALSO have a feeling that I might not have been advancing the timing as per the manual. Does anybody know which way advances the timing on a 3vze??
Cliffs:
1. Advanced timing 1/8" - no gain in power, raised power band.
2. Advanced timing 1/8" more - no gain in power, ran like crap after 5 minutes.
3. Retarted timing 1/8" from baseline - more power down low, pulls better all around.
4. Which way is which on a 3vze distributor?
5. How does ignition timing affect torque curve?
If you read that whole post, you get a cookie.
Here's the current mods:
-K&N drop-in air filter, swiss cheesed lower airbox (tons of 1/4" holes drilled), ISR delete, custom 3" intake straight from AFM to TB
-Gutted cat, 2.5" dia 14" length Magnaflow muffler (the cylindrical type), turn down right after muffler
Totally stock my truck felt like I would "come-on" to power at about 3,000RPM. You guys with the 3vz know what I mean about "coming on" to the power band like a turbo. I guess the factory exhaust is to blame for this lack of low end grunt. Well, with the mods listed above, I have moved that point to somewhere between 3500 and 4000RPM. Too high for my liking, but I can live with it.
With the distributor rotated 1/8" counterclockwise (advanced) I felt absolutely no increase in power, but the exhaust sounded different. It would also pop more when engine braking because of the small exhaust leaks I have. After a few days of driving at this setting it felt like I had even less power below 3500RPM. Well, today I decided to advance it anouther 1/8". At this point I figure I had changed the timing drastically, and the results proved it. The motor ran a little crappier for about 5 minutes of hard accelerations and then finally the ECU did something and made it run like TOTAL crap. I'm talking a major cut in power, foot to the floor and not going anywhere. I figure I advanced the timing way too far and the knock sensors picked up pinging or whatever and pulled a bunch of timing out so that it wouldn't self-destruct.
Now the weird thing is that I never ever heard it ping even once. Bog it in too low of a gear, blip the throttle on and off, pull up a steep hill, didn't hear any pinging. But the ECU thought something was wrong and did some drastic changes to make it run like crap.
Now it gets even more interesting.... Obviously I had to rotate the distributor back clockwise to get the timing right again. But instead of going back to the mild advanced setting or even back to my baseline, I decided to go an 1/8" clockwise of my baseline mark. According to my manual this would retard the timing. Well guess what, I now had more acceleration with it at this 1/8" retarded setting than I EVER had. Major increase in low end grunt and it just wanted to pull way harder.
At this point I should tell you that I did this all on less than excellent 87 octane fuel. I also have no idea how ignition timing affects a torque curve. That is something I would like to find info on. I have a hunch that it sacrifices power in the low end to give more on top. But after searching the net I couldn't find any good articles on it. Please enlighten me on exactly what timing does. I ALSO have a feeling that I might not have been advancing the timing as per the manual. Does anybody know which way advances the timing on a 3vze??
Cliffs:
1. Advanced timing 1/8" - no gain in power, raised power band.
2. Advanced timing 1/8" more - no gain in power, ran like crap after 5 minutes.
3. Retarted timing 1/8" from baseline - more power down low, pulls better all around.
4. Which way is which on a 3vze distributor?
5. How does ignition timing affect torque curve?
If you read that whole post, you get a cookie.
06-18-2005, 04:19 PM
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I would like sugar please. I will send you my address shortly. As to retarding the timing I am as lost as you are as to how this would give you low end improvement. If any body has any ideas please share. I am stumped.
06-18-2005, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by phorensic
Alright, so in my Haynes manual it says to rotate the distributor clockwise to retard the timing, which I'm not so sure is correct after my experimentations. Decided I wanted to advance my timing a couple days ago and I'm too lazy to buy or borrow a timing light. So I marked the distributor hold down bolt with a sharpie to mark my baseline and then rotated it about 1/8" counter-clockwise to advance the timing.
Here's the current mods:
-K&N drop-in air filter, swiss cheesed lower airbox (tons of 1/4" holes drilled), ISR delete, custom 3" intake straight from AFM to TB
-Gutted cat, 2.5" dia 14" length Magnaflow muffler (the cylindrical type), turn down right after muffler
Totally stock my truck felt like I would "come-on" to power at about 3,000RPM. You guys with the 3vz know what I mean about "coming on" to the power band like a turbo. I guess the factory exhaust is to blame for this lack of low end grunt. Well, with the mods listed above, I have moved that point to somewhere between 3500 and 4000RPM. Too high for my liking, but I can live with it.
With the distributor rotated 1/8" counterclockwise (advanced) I felt absolutely no increase in power, but the exhaust sounded different. It would also pop more when engine braking because of the small exhaust leaks I have. After a few days of driving at this setting it felt like I had even less power below 3500RPM. Well, today I decided to advance it anouther 1/8". At this point I figure I had changed the timing drastically, and the results proved it. The motor ran a little crappier for about 5 minutes of hard accelerations and then finally the ECU did something and made it run like TOTAL crap. I'm talking a major cut in power, foot to the floor and not going anywhere. I figure I advanced the timing way too far and the knock sensors picked up pinging or whatever and pulled a bunch of timing out so that it wouldn't self-destruct.
Now the weird thing is that I never ever heard it ping even once. Bog it in too low of a gear, blip the throttle on and off, pull up a steep hill, didn't hear any pinging. But the ECU thought something was wrong and did some drastic changes to make it run like crap.
Now it gets even more interesting.... Obviously I had to rotate the distributor back clockwise to get the timing right again. But instead of going back to the mild advanced setting or even back to my baseline, I decided to go an 1/8" clockwise of my baseline mark. According to my manual this would retard the timing. Well guess what, I now had more acceleration with it at this 1/8" retarded setting than I EVER had. Major increase in low end grunt and it just wanted to pull way harder.
At this point I should tell you that I did this all on less than excellent 87 octane fuel. I also have no idea how ignition timing affects a torque curve. That is something I would like to find info on. I have a hunch that it sacrifices power in the low end to give more on top. But after searching the net I couldn't find any good articles on it. Please enlighten me on exactly what timing does. I ALSO have a feeling that I might not have been advancing the timing as per the manual. Does anybody know which way advances the timing on a 3vze??
Cliffs:
1. Advanced timing 1/8" - no gain in power, raised power band.
2. Advanced timing 1/8" more - no gain in power, ran like crap after 5 minutes.
3. Retarted timing 1/8" from baseline - more power down low, pulls better all around.
4. Which way is which on a 3vze distributor?
5. How does ignition timing affect torque curve?
If you read that whole post, you get a cookie.
Here's the current mods:
-K&N drop-in air filter, swiss cheesed lower airbox (tons of 1/4" holes drilled), ISR delete, custom 3" intake straight from AFM to TB
-Gutted cat, 2.5" dia 14" length Magnaflow muffler (the cylindrical type), turn down right after muffler
Totally stock my truck felt like I would "come-on" to power at about 3,000RPM. You guys with the 3vz know what I mean about "coming on" to the power band like a turbo. I guess the factory exhaust is to blame for this lack of low end grunt. Well, with the mods listed above, I have moved that point to somewhere between 3500 and 4000RPM. Too high for my liking, but I can live with it.
With the distributor rotated 1/8" counterclockwise (advanced) I felt absolutely no increase in power, but the exhaust sounded different. It would also pop more when engine braking because of the small exhaust leaks I have. After a few days of driving at this setting it felt like I had even less power below 3500RPM. Well, today I decided to advance it anouther 1/8". At this point I figure I had changed the timing drastically, and the results proved it. The motor ran a little crappier for about 5 minutes of hard accelerations and then finally the ECU did something and made it run like TOTAL crap. I'm talking a major cut in power, foot to the floor and not going anywhere. I figure I advanced the timing way too far and the knock sensors picked up pinging or whatever and pulled a bunch of timing out so that it wouldn't self-destruct.
Now the weird thing is that I never ever heard it ping even once. Bog it in too low of a gear, blip the throttle on and off, pull up a steep hill, didn't hear any pinging. But the ECU thought something was wrong and did some drastic changes to make it run like crap.
Now it gets even more interesting.... Obviously I had to rotate the distributor back clockwise to get the timing right again. But instead of going back to the mild advanced setting or even back to my baseline, I decided to go an 1/8" clockwise of my baseline mark. According to my manual this would retard the timing. Well guess what, I now had more acceleration with it at this 1/8" retarded setting than I EVER had. Major increase in low end grunt and it just wanted to pull way harder.
At this point I should tell you that I did this all on less than excellent 87 octane fuel. I also have no idea how ignition timing affects a torque curve. That is something I would like to find info on. I have a hunch that it sacrifices power in the low end to give more on top. But after searching the net I couldn't find any good articles on it. Please enlighten me on exactly what timing does. I ALSO have a feeling that I might not have been advancing the timing as per the manual. Does anybody know which way advances the timing on a 3vze??
Cliffs:
1. Advanced timing 1/8" - no gain in power, raised power band.
2. Advanced timing 1/8" more - no gain in power, ran like crap after 5 minutes.
3. Retarted timing 1/8" from baseline - more power down low, pulls better all around.
4. Which way is which on a 3vze distributor?
5. How does ignition timing affect torque curve?
If you read that whole post, you get a cookie.
Soft batch chocolate chip! haha well dude i did the same thing...counterclockwise made it run like 
and clockwise made it run better. I also set my idol adjustment screw up maybe 1 turn counterclockwise to compensate a little more on the tb. Mine actually stays there now...im about 1/4" past my baseline counterclockwise. Got the airbox swiss cheesed like you with a K&N drop in...but not the 3" pipe mod. Just watch the plugs...i think it does burn hotter and burns the plugs up faster.
06-18-2005, 04:29 PM
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Something I should add. At the 1/8" retarded setting I had MUCH better throttle response. Just blipping the throttle in the driveway it would react much faster, and also when cruising at like 2500RPM and then gunning it, it would pick up much quicker than the advanced settings.
Edit: retarded/advanced, like I said I don't know, more like clockwise/counter-clockwise respectively.
Good to hear you had the same (good) results when turning it clockwise.
Edit: retarded/advanced, like I said I don't know, more like clockwise/counter-clockwise respectively.
Good to hear you had the same (good) results when turning it clockwise.
Last edited by phorensic; 06-18-2005 at 04:32 PM. Reason: clarification
06-18-2005, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by callmej75
did you try the throttle cable adjustment mod?
06-18-2005, 04:46 PM
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theres 2 adjustment screws on the end of the throttle cable on top of the throttle body. turn both adjustment screws where the throttle cable goes tight against the throttle linkage. done!
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06-18-2005, 07:14 PM
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Well, I don't have a digital camera (switched over to film), so I cannot take a pic of my TB. I cannot locate these screws you are referring to. Here is my best verbal description of the throttle body on my 94 pickup: throttle cable comes from cab over top of intake manifold, the jacket terminates at a bracket thats mounted to the intake manifold, the jacket has a threaded metal piece for about 1.5 inches at the end, two nuts threaded onto this sandwich the bracket and hold the jacket in place, after the threaded part the cable exits the jacket and is anchored to the rotating linkage part with a lead fishing weight looking thing. Are those two nuts the things that you are talking about?? Because other than that, all the other adjustment screws only adjust things at idle, like the throttle stop screw, and the two other screws that strike those piston looking things (one has a vacuum line going to it). There is also the idle adjustment screw, but that's not even close to all the throttle linkages.
BTW, this doesn't matter for me, because I had my gf sit in the truck and press the throttle all the way and it smacks the TB fully open (the part that is cast into the TB to stop the butterfly from rotating any farther [on the outside]). So my cable isn't stretched at all. Just trying to clarify for other people.
BTW, this doesn't matter for me, because I had my gf sit in the truck and press the throttle all the way and it smacks the TB fully open (the part that is cast into the TB to stop the butterfly from rotating any farther [on the outside]). So my cable isn't stretched at all. Just trying to clarify for other people.
06-19-2005, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by phorensic
Well, I don't have a digital camera (switched over to film), so I cannot take a pic of my TB. I cannot locate these screws you are referring to. Here is my best verbal description of the throttle body on my 94 pickup: throttle cable comes from cab over top of intake manifold, the jacket terminates at a bracket thats mounted to the intake manifold, the jacket has a threaded metal piece for about 1.5 inches at the end, two nuts threaded onto this sandwich the bracket and hold the jacket in place, after the threaded part the cable exits the jacket and is anchored to the rotating linkage part with a lead fishing weight looking thing. Are those two nuts the things that you are talking about?? Because other than that, all the other adjustment screws only adjust things at idle, like the throttle stop screw, and the two other screws that strike those piston looking things (one has a vacuum line going to it). There is also the idle adjustment screw, but that's not even close to all the throttle linkages.
BTW, this doesn't matter for me, because I had my gf sit in the truck and press the throttle all the way and it smacks the TB fully open (the part that is cast into the TB to stop the butterfly from rotating any farther [on the outside]). So my cable isn't stretched at all. Just trying to clarify for other people.
BTW, this doesn't matter for me, because I had my gf sit in the truck and press the throttle all the way and it smacks the TB fully open (the part that is cast into the TB to stop the butterfly from rotating any farther [on the outside]). So my cable isn't stretched at all. Just trying to clarify for other people.
06-19-2005, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by phorensic
Alright, so in my Haynes manual it says to rotate the distributor clockwise to retard the timing, which I'm not so sure is correct after my experimentations. Decided I wanted to advance my timing a couple days ago and I'm too lazy to buy or borrow a timing light. So I marked the distributor hold down bolt with a sharpie to mark my baseline and then rotated it about 1/8" counter-clockwise to advance the timing.
Here's the current mods:
-K&N drop-in air filter, swiss cheesed lower airbox (tons of 1/4" holes drilled), ISR delete, custom 3" intake straight from AFM to TB
-Gutted cat, 2.5" dia 14" length Magnaflow muffler (the cylindrical type), turn down right after muffler
Totally stock my truck felt like I would "come-on" to power at about 3,000RPM. You guys with the 3vz know what I mean about "coming on" to the power band like a turbo. I guess the factory exhaust is to blame for this lack of low end grunt. Well, with the mods listed above, I have moved that point to somewhere between 3500 and 4000RPM. Too high for my liking, but I can live with it.
With the distributor rotated 1/8" counterclockwise (advanced) I felt absolutely no increase in power, but the exhaust sounded different. It would also pop more when engine braking because of the small exhaust leaks I have. After a few days of driving at this setting it felt like I had even less power below 3500RPM. Well, today I decided to advance it anouther 1/8". At this point I figure I had changed the timing drastically, and the results proved it. The motor ran a little crappier for about 5 minutes of hard accelerations and then finally the ECU did something and made it run like TOTAL crap. I'm talking a major cut in power, foot to the floor and not going anywhere. I figure I advanced the timing way too far and the knock sensors picked up pinging or whatever and pulled a bunch of timing out so that it wouldn't self-destruct.
Now the weird thing is that I never ever heard it ping even once. Bog it in too low of a gear, blip the throttle on and off, pull up a steep hill, didn't hear any pinging. But the ECU thought something was wrong and did some drastic changes to make it run like crap.
Now it gets even more interesting.... Obviously I had to rotate the distributor back clockwise to get the timing right again. But instead of going back to the mild advanced setting or even back to my baseline, I decided to go an 1/8" clockwise of my baseline mark. According to my manual this would retard the timing. Well guess what, I now had more acceleration with it at this 1/8" retarded setting than I EVER had. Major increase in low end grunt and it just wanted to pull way harder.
At this point I should tell you that I did this all on less than excellent 87 octane fuel. I also have no idea how ignition timing affects a torque curve. That is something I would like to find info on. I have a hunch that it sacrifices power in the low end to give more on top. But after searching the net I couldn't find any good articles on it. Please enlighten me on exactly what timing does. I ALSO have a feeling that I might not have been advancing the timing as per the manual. Does anybody know which way advances the timing on a 3vze??
Cliffs:
1. Advanced timing 1/8" - no gain in power, raised power band.
2. Advanced timing 1/8" more - no gain in power, ran like crap after 5 minutes.
3. Retarted timing 1/8" from baseline - more power down low, pulls better all around.
4. Which way is which on a 3vze distributor?
5. How does ignition timing affect torque curve?
If you read that whole post, you get a cookie.
Here's the current mods:
-K&N drop-in air filter, swiss cheesed lower airbox (tons of 1/4" holes drilled), ISR delete, custom 3" intake straight from AFM to TB
-Gutted cat, 2.5" dia 14" length Magnaflow muffler (the cylindrical type), turn down right after muffler
Totally stock my truck felt like I would "come-on" to power at about 3,000RPM. You guys with the 3vz know what I mean about "coming on" to the power band like a turbo. I guess the factory exhaust is to blame for this lack of low end grunt. Well, with the mods listed above, I have moved that point to somewhere between 3500 and 4000RPM. Too high for my liking, but I can live with it.
With the distributor rotated 1/8" counterclockwise (advanced) I felt absolutely no increase in power, but the exhaust sounded different. It would also pop more when engine braking because of the small exhaust leaks I have. After a few days of driving at this setting it felt like I had even less power below 3500RPM. Well, today I decided to advance it anouther 1/8". At this point I figure I had changed the timing drastically, and the results proved it. The motor ran a little crappier for about 5 minutes of hard accelerations and then finally the ECU did something and made it run like TOTAL crap. I'm talking a major cut in power, foot to the floor and not going anywhere. I figure I advanced the timing way too far and the knock sensors picked up pinging or whatever and pulled a bunch of timing out so that it wouldn't self-destruct.
Now the weird thing is that I never ever heard it ping even once. Bog it in too low of a gear, blip the throttle on and off, pull up a steep hill, didn't hear any pinging. But the ECU thought something was wrong and did some drastic changes to make it run like crap.
Now it gets even more interesting.... Obviously I had to rotate the distributor back clockwise to get the timing right again. But instead of going back to the mild advanced setting or even back to my baseline, I decided to go an 1/8" clockwise of my baseline mark. According to my manual this would retard the timing. Well guess what, I now had more acceleration with it at this 1/8" retarded setting than I EVER had. Major increase in low end grunt and it just wanted to pull way harder.
At this point I should tell you that I did this all on less than excellent 87 octane fuel. I also have no idea how ignition timing affects a torque curve. That is something I would like to find info on. I have a hunch that it sacrifices power in the low end to give more on top. But after searching the net I couldn't find any good articles on it. Please enlighten me on exactly what timing does. I ALSO have a feeling that I might not have been advancing the timing as per the manual. Does anybody know which way advances the timing on a 3vze??
Cliffs:
1. Advanced timing 1/8" - no gain in power, raised power band.
2. Advanced timing 1/8" more - no gain in power, ran like crap after 5 minutes.
3. Retarted timing 1/8" from baseline - more power down low, pulls better all around.
4. Which way is which on a 3vze distributor?
5. How does ignition timing affect torque curve?
If you read that whole post, you get a cookie.
06-19-2005, 03:44 PM
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"I'm too lazy to buy or borrow a timing light".
5 degrees retarded huh? If clockwise is retarded, then yeah it's pretty weird how retarding the timing makes these 3vz's run better.
5 degrees retarded huh? If clockwise is retarded, then yeah it's pretty weird how retarding the timing makes these 3vz's run better.
06-20-2005, 08:02 PM
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I'll get a crappy cell phone pic tomorrow. Being a professional photographer, be rest assured I will spend way too much time getting the lighting right and making sure it's as sharp as possible, lol.
06-21-2005, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by phorensic
I'll get a crappy cell phone pic tomorrow. Being a professional photographer, be rest assured I will spend way too much time getting the lighting right and making sure it's as sharp as possible, lol.
06-21-2005, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ROMAD
Are you sure thats the throttle cable? I am probably wrong but I thought the throttle cable was on the bottom side of that wheel.
06-21-2005, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by nunsa
Very interesting post, but did you ever hear of a timing light? Only kidding! Serious though, to adjust the timing on a Toyota you have to jump the connectors, "te" and "e1",or else the timing might reset itself, I always ran my 3.0 at 5 degrees retarded, she screamed, a trick I learned from an old Toyota tech years ago. The power and p/u was there when I did so!
phorensic, you have your retard and advanced backwards. Your last setting is advanced. If you had a timing light you could tell this. And yes, you need to jumper that diag connector when you do it.
:bounce2:
