91 Yota SAS Need Advice. 1st time - Page 2

tc · 09-25-2009, 02:34 PM

At least here in CO, the trails you need an SAS for guarantee body damage.

You 'wheel hard trails, your rig becomes a raisin - happens EVERY time.

Sure, you can have a clean, built truck - but you're not 'wheeling it to the build's potential, and have therefore wasted money.

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OV Kid · 09-25-2009, 06:22 PM

tc-

Well here is CA, their are tons of trails and lost fo them require good flex to be able to get through. My trucks not perfectly clean, and it souldnt be, its a truck. Scratches and dings happen all the time but theirs no shame in trying to avoid massive dents and smashed out windows.

From what I can tell, you have no interest in giving me advice. Your just trying to pick a fight and thats not what Yota Tech is about so just chill out and try to understand that their are all kinds of wheelers out there and we should all just get along and help each other.haha

tc · 09-25-2009, 09:45 PM

You said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by OV Kid

I'm a poor college student so money is limited. Whats the best/most affordable way for my truck to be solid axled and sitting on 35's?

and my advice is that you shouldn't SAS. To do a SAS properly and gain advantage over the IFS, it's going to cost $3000.

To see the strength benefits, you need to do high steer and Longfields.

To see the offroad capability increase, you need to do gears and lockers.

You can spend a lot of time trying to do it cheaper and you know what you'll have? A cheap, possibly dangerous, SFA rig that won't ride well, won't flex for crap, and is just as likely to break as IFS.

If you don't have a locker yet, you just don't realize what you're missing and what the capability of the truck really is.

tc · 09-25-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OV Kid

tc-

Well here is CA, their are tons of trails and lost fo them require good flex to be able to get through. My trucks not perfectly clean, and it souldnt be, its a truck. Scratches and dings happen all the time but theirs no shame in trying to avoid massive dents and smashed out windows.

From what I can tell, you have no interest in giving me advice. Your just trying to pick a fight and thats not what Yota Tech is about so just chill out and try to understand that their are all kinds of wheelers out there and we should all just get along and help each other.haha

No trail REQUIRES flex. Some extreme trails require the extra strength and constant ground clearance of a built solid axle to run the huge tires required for the ground clearance. Massive dents and broken glass are what I'm referring to.

No, you have no interest in listening to advice. Helping people avoid mistakes is EXACTLY what YT is about, and the help I am providing, but it's your rig - do what you want with it.

flashkl · 09-25-2009, 10:18 PM

Quote:

You said:

Quote:

I'm a poor college student so money is limited. Whats the best/most affordable way for my truck to be solid axled and sitting on 35's?

and my advice is that you shouldn't SAS.

tc: he told you that he wanted a solid axle. That was the original point of the question. He doesn't want to know what the most affordable way to make his rig more capable is, he wants to know the most affordable way to SAS his rig. He's asking a very specific question and some of you are completely ignoring it.

drew303 · 09-26-2009, 12:22 AM

Most affordable way to SAS? ... Ultimately the Trail-gear IFS eliminator kit is the cheapest way. Bang for buck by far. You can make your own front hangar, your own shackles, your own frame tube (to mount the shackles) .. Ford front shock mount or make your own... procomp, gabriel, monroe or something shocks... hysteer well you're gonna NEED to spend the dough there.

run stock brakes if you want. You'll need extended brake lines tho

but I still suggest the TG kit. It's not the best kit, quality wise but it's a damn good one.

and Long's are NOT a neccesity, jesus.

You'll also need a front driveline, square for 40-50 bucks if you make it yourself, clearance the IFS CV (double cardan) .. or find another ujoint and run singles (thats what i did)

but dont expect to drive with the hubs locked in, on pavement but it works great for wheeling!

You'll want gears, but you dont need gears. Lockers, meh, yea you'll want em but wont need em.

Theres nothing "CHEAP" about doing things the right way tho. Don't forget that. You want quality, strength, endurance. It costs THOUSANDS.. and overall.. i think the average people invest in their rigs easily clears $10,000 .. Thats a low ball IMO

Especially if you make tolerable to be a daily driver.

goodluck

in your shoes tho, I'd have fun with the IFS. And work towards a SAS. Thats what I did and i think it was the right way to go

**waskillywabbit** · 09-26-2009, 06:46 AM

tc is offering excellent advice...dare I say pearls of wisdom. You should pay attention newb.

A "cheap SAS" is a teenager's wet dream and doesn't exist. $3k is still cheap and that is assuming you do all the labor yourself. I got over $5k in my ext cab and that is just the built Toyota axles so I can enjoy the SAS.

Only reason this thread is even still here is because I moved it to newbie tech so you "might" learn something and not get flamed. You don't like the answers to your question(s), so might I suggest you go ask it on someplace like Pirate or TTORA and see how quick you can get butthurt there.

Access to a fab shop doesn't mean squat. I have access to a piano in my living room and can't play one for crap.

There are thousands of SAS Toyotas and dozens of build threads, even supposed "cheap" ones on YT, so quit your whining, click on the search button at the top of the page or

and come back when you have some real questions and care to listen to folks like tc who DO have a clue.

Now THAT is a rant.

Next?

AxleIke · 09-26-2009, 08:12 AM

This statement is completely contradictory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OV Kid

I dont want to spend money doing things the crapy way. I've never heard of IFS "dieing". I'm going to do a SAS. I'm just looking to do it as cost effective as possible

First off, in no way is this a financially responsible sport. If you like to wheel, expect to blow money.

Doing things the right way is only cost effective because it saves you repair time down the road.

Here is the deal:

If you do know how to fab, and have time, building hangers for leaf springs is easy, and you already have the IFS steering box. Run the rears up front.

The others have pointed out the advantages and disadvantages of stock leafs vs 63's earlier. Choose there.

Lots of people run stock birfs, and are okay, but I wouldn't. Budget the 650 for longs, and the 400 for high steer. You won't regret it.

Now, for lockers and gears.

If this truck is a street queen that you want to impress folks in, I understand that, and I think you'll be able to do that no problem. Running mild trails will be no problem, and I'd say wait on the lockers and gears.

However, if you expect any sort of moderate to mildly difficult trail time, either budget for lockers and gears or don't bother. Open/open is just silly on those trails.

When running hard trails out here, we will require lockers and a tire size on many of the more difficult trails. Doesn't matter if they have a solid axle or not.

whokrz · 09-26-2009, 11:19 AM

Yes, you can build IFS cheaper than a SFA, but that is not the information that OV Kid asked us for. He obviously has the money to do a SAS and already has the front axle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tc

You can spend a lot of time trying to do it cheaper and you know what you'll have? A cheap, possibly dangerous, SFA rig that won't ride well, won't flex for crap, and is just as likely to break as IFS.

This is very true I have seen lots of people build very scary rigs and drive them on the street. They can't figure out why they have death wobble and why it keeps breaking. With that said, Thank You OV Kid for coming to yotatech and asking how to build it correctly.

You can save about $1000 compared to a kit and still make it just as safe and strong. To do this you will need the tools, cheap or free metal, the knowledge to work with metal and the time to research/build your own parts, which it sounds like you have.

Marlins full kit
$1449 - Front http://www.marlincrawler.com/suspens...-hilux-1986-95
$599 - Rear http://www.marlincrawler.com/suspens...-hilux-1979-95
$329 - Drive shaft http://www.marlincrawler.com/axle/dr...line-driveline
$2377 - Total

$399 - High steer http://www.marlincrawler.com/steerin...teer-kit-hilux
$20 - 4 center bolts for leaf spring
$32 - 16 Spring bushings http://www.marlincrawler.com/suspens...-bushing-large
$16 - 8 Shackle bushings
$84 - 12 greaseable 18mm bolts http://www.marlincrawler.com/hardwar...-shackle-bolts
$24 - 12 stover lock nuts 18mm http://www.marlincrawler.com/hardwar...-lock-nut-18mm
$300 - 4 Bilstien shocks 14" front 12" rear http://www.marlincrawler.com/suspens...in-5125-series
$85 - 3 Extended brake lines http://www.marlincrawler.com/brake/b...line-kit-hilux
$99.98 - U-Bolt Flip Kit http://www.marlincrawler.com/axle/fr...-bolt-flip-kit
$150 - Extra leaf springs out of junk yard
$39 - FJ60 rotors http://www.marlincrawler.com/brake/d...rotor-standard
$79 - http://www.marlincrawler.com/axle/wh...pattern-toyota
Assuming that you will get free metal at the fab shop the following only costs you your time.
Front spring hanger
Spacers for the front shackles
Shackle hanger frame tubes
Rear shackle hangers
Rear spring hangers
Shackle plates
Shock hoops
Rear shock bar
Axle shock mount
3/8" Spring Pad Spacer
Bump stops
Frame reinforce for steering
Square front drive shaft
1327.98 - Total

whokrz · 09-26-2009, 11:21 AM

The following is off topic but is good to know about when you are planing to build a truck. Even if you don't use it you had the choice.

Longfield axles are really nice to have but they are expensive and not necessary if you are easy on the gas and carry a spare birf and snap ring. I have ran 37" tires on stock birfs for 2 years and haven't broken one yet. I know it is only a matter of time which is why I carry a spare.

Body/Transmission lift
This will will give you about 4 inches of ground clearance under the vehicle and give your truck a flat belly. This will also keep your center of gravity lower than going with all suspension lift.
4crawlers drive train lift page is a good read http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...ft/index.shtml
He also has some good before and after shots.

before

after

You could make a marlin type cross member to raise it.

FROR makes plates for doing this but I am not sure if they make them for a G58, not sure what tranny you have. Here is a link to their page http://frontrangeoffroadfab.com

Here is a link for 4crawlers body lift http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/BodyLiftKit.shtml I was very happy with mine, or you can make your own.

Differentials:
This page is a good read for differentials http://home.4x4wire.com/erik/diffs/

I would look into a Hi-pinion e-locker for the front.

With longs the differential becomes one of the weak points. This differential will stand up to longs better than the 4cyl and V6 differentials. It is stronger because of the reverse-cut gears and it comes with a selectable locker. They are not cheap and will need to be geared, but it is cheaper than $1599 ARB/Hi-pinion from marlin.

For the rear I would look into a non-TRD tacoma axle.

The 4cyl and V6 differential is about equal in strength to the stock axle shafts. This differential is stronger than the 4cyl and V6 differential because of the trusses and larger pinion. The tacoma's still break axle shafts but rarely break the differential. This differential also goes nicely with FROR full floating kit for toyota rear axles.
Your IFS axle is 58" wide as is a SFA with 1.5" wheel spacers. The tacoma axle is 60.75" wide. This means that your rear tires will stick out 1.375" farther in the rear. You could run a wider wheel spacers to even its out but this will make the front axle weaker and in my opinion it is not worth the 1.375"
If it was easy to put in I would run this differential in front too, but that would require a lot of modification to the front housing.

When you gear and lock your differentials it is going to cost you a lot of money. The extra cost to upgrade to stronger differentials is money well spent, because they are less likely to break and expensive to replace.

Lockers:
Spool - Not to much fun to drive on the road, but nice in the rear differential off road.
Auto locker - read this review http://www.gentryoffroad.com/php/gen...view/lockrite/
Selectable Locker - arb and elocker is the nicest with no bad road manners but is more expensive.

yota_mota · 09-26-2009, 01:35 PM

Holy Crap! Cant we all just get along, HAHA! I saw some good opinions in there. As far as lockers and gears, sorry to say but you're just gonna have to suck it up (and save up) to get the spendy items. Believe me, I have the same truck and desperately want to do an SAS, but having no job in this awesome economy of ours is just a little hindering. I priced out just the suspension and diff items and I came out to over 5k (well, with bumpers and sliders included, but they aren't that much in comparison to the rest of my shopping cart). That doesn't even include rims and tires or cost of any fab work to be done. I want the same thing, a daily wheeler, and I look at this way.... there are people out there who spend (or finance) trucks that cost over 40k. I'm just looking to spend in between 8-10k on a truck that will waaaayy out perform a brand new stocker. I dont need fancy heated leather seats or a shiny digital dash with all the gadgets and doodads of todays trucks. I want a truck that feels reasonably comfortable on the inside and will go climb Mt. Everest on the outside. So, in other words you and I are in the same shoes. But I'm NOT doing anything AT ALL half-ass, for more reasons than they've mentioned on the above threads. Keepin it stock or close to stock, or restoring your truck is our dad's mentality. My dad had his days of crazy mods and going big, but now he's a couch potato and likes to keep things stock and that's okay. IMHO, go solid or go home.

91_TOYOTA_4x4 · 09-26-2009, 05:29 PM

Man i realy want too sas too and i hav a sfa already but in the last few weeks im leaning toward 33"s and a rear locker and wheel the piss out of it. who know's what will happen. my oppinoin, just dont cut corners and dont be afraid to invest a chunk of change, and hell do the swap regardless of wether u need it or dont need it. Solid front axle looks sweet and you are going to need it eventually so if u hv the time an money do it dude!

09-26-2009, 12:22 AM	#31 (permalink)
drew303 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Olympia, WA Posts: 2,033	Most affordable way to SAS? ... Ultimately the Trail-gear IFS eliminator kit is the cheapest way. Bang for buck by far. You can make your own front hangar, your own shackles, your own frame tube (to mount the shackles) .. Ford front shock mount or make your own... procomp, gabriel, monroe or something shocks... hysteer well you're gonna NEED to spend the dough there. run stock brakes if you want. You'll need extended brake lines tho but I still suggest the TG kit. It's not the best kit, quality wise but it's a damn good one. and Long's are NOT a neccesity, jesus. You'll also need a front driveline, square for 40-50 bucks if you make it yourself, clearance the IFS CV (double cardan) .. or find another ujoint and run singles (thats what i did) but dont expect to drive with the hubs locked in, on pavement but it works great for wheeling! You'll want gears, but you dont need gears. Lockers, meh, yea you'll want em but wont need em. Theres nothing "CHEAP" about doing things the right way tho. Don't forget that. You want quality, strength, endurance. It costs THOUSANDS.. and overall.. i think the average people invest in their rigs easily clears $10,000 .. Thats a low ball IMO Especially if you make tolerable to be a daily driver. goodluck in your shoes tho, I'd have fun with the IFS. And work towards a SAS. Thats what I did and i think it was the right way to go __________________ 1987 Pickup, single cab, 22R, new head, 260 cam TG 3" SAS, rear disc brakes, chromoly rear axles, Chromoly Birfs, Tcase brake, 37x12.50R15 MT/Rs, 5.29 gears, rear Aussie Locker, front Detroit Truetrac.

09-26-2009, 06:46 AM	#32 (permalink)
waskillywabbit Super Moderator-Sponsoring Member Staff Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Tuscaloosa, AL Posts: 14,559	tc is offering excellent advice...dare I say pearls of wisdom. You should pay attention newb. A "cheap SAS" is a teenager's wet dream and doesn't exist. $3k is still cheap and that is assuming you do all the labor yourself. I got over $5k in my ext cab and that is just the built Toyota axles so I can enjoy the SAS. Only reason this thread is even still here is because I moved it to newbie tech so you "might" learn something and not get flamed. You don't like the answers to your question(s), so might I suggest you go ask it on someplace like Pirate or TTORA and see how quick you can get butthurt there. Access to a fab shop doesn't mean squat. I have access to a piano in my living room and can't play one for crap. There are thousands of SAS Toyotas and dozens of build threads, even supposed "cheap" ones on YT, so quit your whining, click on the search button at the top of the page or and come back when you have some real questions and care to listen to folks like tc who DO have a clue. Now THAT is a rant. Next? __________________ WabFab Off-Road, LLC MySpace Twitter Facebook 7th Annual South East 4Runner Jamboree, 2010 The toughest part of a Jeep is the chick driving it. WabFab Off-Road 4th Anniversary Sale

09-26-2009, 11:21 AM	#35 (permalink)
whokrz Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Suisun City, California Posts: 355	The following is off topic but is good to know about when you are planing to build a truck. Even if you don't use it you had the choice. Longfield axles are really nice to have but they are expensive and not necessary if you are easy on the gas and carry a spare birf and snap ring. I have ran 37" tires on stock birfs for 2 years and haven't broken one yet. I know it is only a matter of time which is why I carry a spare. Body/Transmission lift This will will give you about 4 inches of ground clearance under the vehicle and give your truck a flat belly. This will also keep your center of gravity lower than going with all suspension lift. 4crawlers drive train lift page is a good read http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/CheapTri...ft/index.shtml He also has some good before and after shots. before after You could make a marlin type cross member to raise it. FROR makes plates for doing this but I am not sure if they make them for a G58, not sure what tranny you have. Here is a link to their page http://frontrangeoffroadfab.com Here is a link for 4crawlers body lift http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/ForSale/BodyLiftKit.shtml I was very happy with mine, or you can make your own. Differentials: This page is a good read for differentials http://home.4x4wire.com/erik/diffs/ I would look into a Hi-pinion e-locker for the front. With longs the differential becomes one of the weak points. This differential will stand up to longs better than the 4cyl and V6 differentials. It is stronger because of the reverse-cut gears and it comes with a selectable locker. They are not cheap and will need to be geared, but it is cheaper than $1599 ARB/Hi-pinion from marlin. For the rear I would look into a non-TRD tacoma axle. The 4cyl and V6 differential is about equal in strength to the stock axle shafts. This differential is stronger than the 4cyl and V6 differential because of the trusses and larger pinion. The tacoma's still break axle shafts but rarely break the differential. This differential also goes nicely with FROR full floating kit for toyota rear axles. Your IFS axle is 58" wide as is a SFA with 1.5" wheel spacers. The tacoma axle is 60.75" wide. This means that your rear tires will stick out 1.375" farther in the rear. You could run a wider wheel spacers to even its out but this will make the front axle weaker and in my opinion it is not worth the 1.375" If it was easy to put in I would run this differential in front too, but that would require a lot of modification to the front housing. When you gear and lock your differentials it is going to cost you a lot of money. The extra cost to upgrade to stronger differentials is money well spent, because they are less likely to break and expensive to replace. Lockers: Spool - Not to much fun to drive on the road, but nice in the rear differential off road. Auto locker - read this review http://www.gentryoffroad.com/php/gen...view/lockrite/ Selectable Locker - arb and elocker is the nicest with no bad road manners but is more expensive. __________________ 1990 4runner, 22re, R151, 4.7, 5.29s, E-locker front, Lock-Rite rear, 37" MTRs, 51" rears all around Trail Reviews http://www.gentryoffroad.com Toyota Factory Service Manuals http://ncttora.com/fsm/index.html

09-26-2009, 05:29 PM	#37 (permalink)
91_TOYOTA_4x4 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 274	Man i realy want too sas too and i hav a sfa already but in the last few weeks im leaning toward 33"s and a rear locker and wheel the piss out of it. who know's what will happen. my oppinoin, just dont cut corners and dont be afraid to invest a chunk of change, and hell do the swap regardless of wether u need it or dont need it. Solid front axle looks sweet and you are going to need it eventually so if u hv the time an money do it dude! __________________ 91 std cab,4wd, 22re, 5spd, 31" Dick Cepek mud country's, dimond plate in box. "open diffs SUCK"

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09-25-2009, 06:22 PM	#27 (permalink)
OV Kid Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Orangevale Posts: 11	tc- Well here is CA, their are tons of trails and lost fo them require good flex to be able to get through. My trucks not perfectly clean, and it souldnt be, its a truck. Scratches and dings happen all the time but theirs no shame in trying to avoid massive dents and smashed out windows. From what I can tell, you have no interest in giving me advice. Your just trying to pick a fight and thats not what Yota Tech is about so just chill out and try to understand that their are all kinds of wheelers out there and we should all just get along and help each other.haha

09-26-2009, 01:35 PM	#36 (permalink)
yota_mota Registered User Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 58	Holy Crap! Cant we all just get along, HAHA! I saw some good opinions in there. As far as lockers and gears, sorry to say but you're just gonna have to suck it up (and save up) to get the spendy items. Believe me, I have the same truck and desperately want to do an SAS, but having no job in this awesome economy of ours is just a little hindering. I priced out just the suspension and diff items and I came out to over 5k (well, with bumpers and sliders included, but they aren't that much in comparison to the rest of my shopping cart). That doesn't even include rims and tires or cost of any fab work to be done. I want the same thing, a daily wheeler, and I look at this way.... there are people out there who spend (or finance) trucks that cost over 40k. I'm just looking to spend in between 8-10k on a truck that will waaaayy out perform a brand new stocker. I dont need fancy heated leather seats or a shiny digital dash with all the gadgets and doodads of todays trucks. I want a truck that feels reasonably comfortable on the inside and will go climb Mt. Everest on the outside. So, in other words you and I are in the same shoes. But I'm NOT doing anything AT ALL half-ass, for more reasons than they've mentioned on the above threads. Keepin it stock or close to stock, or restoring your truck is our dad's mentality. My dad had his days of crazy mods and going big, but now he's a couch potato and likes to keep things stock and that's okay. IMHO, go solid or go home.