Starter/relay issues
03-14-2011, 09:17 AM
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Starter/relay issues
Hi all,
I'd really appreciate any help with some embarrassingly basic questions. I've been searching this site and others for quite a while without resolution.
Recently replaced the starter on a '99 2.4L manual. When I try to start it up, there's nothing- no clicking, no nothing. Checked and rechecked the connections several times and can't find anything wrong. Checked the battery cables/terminal posts and they're good. The battery seems fine- it's fairly new and the headlights etc are strong- but I tried jumping it anyway and still nothing.
With the key turned on and the lights on the dash lit up, I checked the positive lead to the starter from underneath with a non-contact voltage tester and there's no power. So I disconnected everything, checked the connectors themselves and the wires again, then reconnected.
Assuming the connectors/wiring/battery/starter are good, does it sound like this may be the starter relay? I tried to remove the relay but couldn't get it out. There seems to be a tab to be pulled back but the white plastic clips on the sides seem to be holding the relay in place and I didn't want to force it.
Thanks for any help on this.
I'd really appreciate any help with some embarrassingly basic questions. I've been searching this site and others for quite a while without resolution.
Recently replaced the starter on a '99 2.4L manual. When I try to start it up, there's nothing- no clicking, no nothing. Checked and rechecked the connections several times and can't find anything wrong. Checked the battery cables/terminal posts and they're good. The battery seems fine- it's fairly new and the headlights etc are strong- but I tried jumping it anyway and still nothing.
With the key turned on and the lights on the dash lit up, I checked the positive lead to the starter from underneath with a non-contact voltage tester and there's no power. So I disconnected everything, checked the connectors themselves and the wires again, then reconnected.
Assuming the connectors/wiring/battery/starter are good, does it sound like this may be the starter relay? I tried to remove the relay but couldn't get it out. There seems to be a tab to be pulled back but the white plastic clips on the sides seem to be holding the relay in place and I didn't want to force it.
Thanks for any help on this.
03-14-2011, 09:53 AM
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New starter. No power at the starter/positive cable lead connection even though the battery and wiring appear to be sound.
I'm just trying to figure out the next steps. Maybe the clutch switch has gone wonky?
I'm just trying to figure out the next steps. Maybe the clutch switch has gone wonky?
03-14-2011, 10:20 AM
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Probacly just the relay, there shouldnt be any clip (I could be wrong) It should just pull out. My EFI relay is a bear to get out, just wiggle and pull at it and it should eventually come out. May take a couple minutes.
03-15-2011, 02:49 AM
#6
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Hi!
First off...Welcome to Yotatech!
Unless your 99 starting circuit is different then anything I have ever seen, the large positive positive cable that connects to the back of the starter comes directly off of the positive post of the battery and always has battery voltage.
The starter relay controls the solenoid switch on the starter, when you turn the key the relay picks up and completes the circuit to the solenoid switch, which engages the starter drive with the flywheel (Manual) or ring gear (Automatic). It also completes the starter motor circuit causing the starter to rotate. The only time there is power (and voltage) to the (Solenoid) small wire on the starter is when the key is in the start position, if it wasn't designed that way your starter would be engaged when the engine is running and where your truck is a manual with the key in the start position you have the coil side of the starter relay, you have the clutch start switch (to prevent the vehicle from being started in gear) and then the starter solenoid. There is also the Clutch cancel switch on the dash (not sure if the 99s still have these), but it's not really in the circuit until you make use of it. This part of the circuit is generally powered by AM1 (usually 40a.) which is under the hood.
The contact side of the starter relay is powered directly by the 80 or 100 amp (depending on the size of your alternator) circuit breaker. Once the coil side of the relay circuit is complete with the key in the start position, the contact side closes providing power to the starter solenoid, cold start injector and start injector time switch, etc. You said the headlights are working, but they come directly off of the battery, check your tailights, if they are okay then 80a. circuit breaker is okay!
The AC/DC non contact voltage testers that I have seen are non-contact for 0-600Vac, but they are contact for DC. AC (alternating current) as the name suggests reverses 60 times a second (60 cycle frequency) so does the voltage and that is what these testers pick up. DC doesn't reverse so unless you make contact with the conductor you will not detect voltage. Most of them say this in the data sheet or instructions.
What to do!
1) Did you clean the battery terminals and posts of the battery when you had everything apart? Corrision can cause some pretty strange things.
2) Verify battery voltage on the large wire of the starter.
3) When relays fail it is almost always on the coil side. Before you pull the starter relay with everything off radio, buzzers, door chimes, etc. depress the clutch, turn the key to the start position and listen for the click of the relay. Let the clutch out with the key in the on position (vehicle in neutral) push the clutch cancel switch, turn the key to the start position and listen for the click of the relay.
No Click...then;
4) Pull the starter relay you should see 2 large and 2 small spade connectors. The 2 large are the contact side of the relay and the 2 small are the coil side of the relay. Verify battery voltage on one of the large terminals (usually #5) in the socket. None of the other terminals should read battery voltage at this point.
5)Have a helper hold the key in the start position, you should now read battery voltage on a second wire in the socket..one of the smaller terminals (usually #1).
If this checks out the circuit is good to the relay socket.
6)Turn the key off, have the helper depress the clutch, check the other small terminal (usually #2) to battery (-) ground. If you read a ground on this wire with the clutch depressed check it again with the clutch in the normal position the ground should no longer be present. If this is what you find the clutch switch and the rest of the circuit are okay and your relay is toast.
First off...Welcome to Yotatech!
Unless your 99 starting circuit is different then anything I have ever seen, the large positive positive cable that connects to the back of the starter comes directly off of the positive post of the battery and always has battery voltage.
The starter relay controls the solenoid switch on the starter, when you turn the key the relay picks up and completes the circuit to the solenoid switch, which engages the starter drive with the flywheel (Manual) or ring gear (Automatic). It also completes the starter motor circuit causing the starter to rotate. The only time there is power (and voltage) to the (Solenoid) small wire on the starter is when the key is in the start position, if it wasn't designed that way your starter would be engaged when the engine is running and where your truck is a manual with the key in the start position you have the coil side of the starter relay, you have the clutch start switch (to prevent the vehicle from being started in gear) and then the starter solenoid. There is also the Clutch cancel switch on the dash (not sure if the 99s still have these), but it's not really in the circuit until you make use of it. This part of the circuit is generally powered by AM1 (usually 40a.) which is under the hood.
The contact side of the starter relay is powered directly by the 80 or 100 amp (depending on the size of your alternator) circuit breaker. Once the coil side of the relay circuit is complete with the key in the start position, the contact side closes providing power to the starter solenoid, cold start injector and start injector time switch, etc. You said the headlights are working, but they come directly off of the battery, check your tailights, if they are okay then 80a. circuit breaker is okay!
I checked the positive lead to the starter from underneath with a non-contact voltage tester and there's no power
What to do!
1) Did you clean the battery terminals and posts of the battery when you had everything apart? Corrision can cause some pretty strange things.
2) Verify battery voltage on the large wire of the starter.
3) When relays fail it is almost always on the coil side. Before you pull the starter relay with everything off radio, buzzers, door chimes, etc. depress the clutch, turn the key to the start position and listen for the click of the relay. Let the clutch out with the key in the on position (vehicle in neutral) push the clutch cancel switch, turn the key to the start position and listen for the click of the relay.
No Click...then;
4) Pull the starter relay you should see 2 large and 2 small spade connectors. The 2 large are the contact side of the relay and the 2 small are the coil side of the relay. Verify battery voltage on one of the large terminals (usually #5) in the socket. None of the other terminals should read battery voltage at this point.
5)Have a helper hold the key in the start position, you should now read battery voltage on a second wire in the socket..one of the smaller terminals (usually #1).
If this checks out the circuit is good to the relay socket.
6)Turn the key off, have the helper depress the clutch, check the other small terminal (usually #2) to battery (-) ground. If you read a ground on this wire with the clutch depressed check it again with the clutch in the normal position the ground should no longer be present. If this is what you find the clutch switch and the rest of the circuit are okay and your relay is toast.
Last edited by Hadmatt54; 03-15-2011 at 02:56 AM.
03-15-2011, 06:58 AM
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Thanks brother! I really appreciate the help on this.
Ha--- well this is embarrassing. Of course you're right about the futility of using a non-contact tester in this situation.
You, my friend, should be writing manuals. This is exactly the information I've been looking for.
The positive cable post was half-eaten away.
Will do.
Got it. I'll give it a go when my friend gets here.
Dumb question time:
I tried to pull the starter relay and couldn't get it out. I released the tab but the white plastic "clips" on the sides seemed to hold it tight and I didn't want to force it. Do these white clips come out with the relay? Or is the relay only the blue part? From pics online it seems to be the blue part only, but I just want to make sure before I break something, which I'm very good at.
It's very kind of you to take the time to explain all of this. Thanks so much. I'm going to print this out and work on it this afternoon and will update this later. Cheers!
Unless your 99 starting circuit is different then anything I have ever seen, the large positive positive cable that connects to the back of the starter comes directly off of the positive post of the battery and always has battery voltage...
...DC doesn't reverse so unless you make contact with the conductor you will not detect voltage. Most of them say this in the data sheet or instructions.
...DC doesn't reverse so unless you make contact with the conductor you will not detect voltage. Most of them say this in the data sheet or instructions.
The contact side of the starter relay is powered directly by the 80 or 100 amp (depending on the size of your alternator) circuit breaker. Once the coil side of the relay circuit is complete with the key in the start position, the contact side closes providing power to the starter solenoid, cold start injector and start injector time switch, etc. You said the headlights are working, but they come directly off of the battery, check your tailights, if they are okay then 80a. circuit breaker is okay!
Will do.
3) When relays fail it is almost always on the coil side. Before you pull the starter relay with everything off radio, buzzers, door chimes, etc. depress the clutch, turn the key to the start position and listen for the click of the relay. Let the clutch out with the key in the on position (vehicle in neutral) push the clutch cancel switch, turn the key to the start position and listen for the click of the relay.
No Click...then;
No Click...then;
4) Pull the starter relay you should see 2 large and 2 small spade connectors. The 2 large are the contact side of the relay and the 2 small are the coil side of the relay. Verify battery voltage on one of the large terminals (usually #5) in the socket. None of the other terminals should read battery voltage at this point.
I tried to pull the starter relay and couldn't get it out. I released the tab but the white plastic "clips" on the sides seemed to hold it tight and I didn't want to force it. Do these white clips come out with the relay? Or is the relay only the blue part? From pics online it seems to be the blue part only, but I just want to make sure before I break something, which I'm very good at.
5)Have a helper hold the key in the start position, you should now read battery voltage on a second wire in the socket..one of the smaller terminals (usually #1).
If this checks out the circuit is good to the relay socket.
6)Turn the key off, have the helper depress the clutch, check the other small terminal (usually #2) to battery (-) ground. If you read a ground on this wire with the clutch depressed check it again with the clutch in the normal position the ground should no longer be present. If this is what you find the clutch switch and the rest of the circuit are okay and your relay is toast.
If this checks out the circuit is good to the relay socket.
6)Turn the key off, have the helper depress the clutch, check the other small terminal (usually #2) to battery (-) ground. If you read a ground on this wire with the clutch depressed check it again with the clutch in the normal position the ground should no longer be present. If this is what you find the clutch switch and the rest of the circuit are okay and your relay is toast.
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03-15-2011, 09:13 AM
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Starter that I have seen only have two wires, constant and trigger. The bolted(8-10mm) down cable is always constant and the one is black molex connector in color black, black/white, or green black is trigger wire send from your key.
I would test two things in this order:
1. w/ a helping hand and the starter trigger wire unplug, test it when the helper turn to START. if it doesn't get 12volt positive, then go on.
2. Test your starter wire, green/black (12-10awg thickness), located at the ignition harness at the steering column. Test to see if you get 12volt positive. If not, replace the switch behind the key cylinder. If yes, check relay.
I would test two things in this order:
1. w/ a helping hand and the starter trigger wire unplug, test it when the helper turn to START. if it doesn't get 12volt positive, then go on.
2. Test your starter wire, green/black (12-10awg thickness), located at the ignition harness at the steering column. Test to see if you get 12volt positive. If not, replace the switch behind the key cylinder. If yes, check relay.
03-16-2011, 10:15 AM
#10
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I tried to pull the starter relay and couldn't get it out. I released the tab but the white plastic "clips" on the sides seemed to hold it tight and I didn't want to force it. Do these white clips come out with the relay? Or is the relay only the blue part? From pics online it seems to be the blue part only, but I just want to make sure before I break something, which I'm very good at.
03-17-2011, 08:24 AM
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Hopefully this is an easy adjustment. I'll try it when I get back home tonight.
Thanks SO MUCH for all of the help. If not for you guys I probably would have started throwing new parts at it (new relay! new battery! new cables!) and the truck would still be sitting there dead in the water.
03-17-2011, 08:30 AM
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It was indeed the blue and white part. Took a lot of wiggling and pulling to get it out, but I suppose it's been in there for going on 12 years now so maybe it's not that surprising that it would be kind of stuck in place.
03-18-2011, 02:10 AM
#13
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Sometimes the problem has the simpliest solution. I remember my son borrowed my 4Runner in the winter and in the morning it wouldn't start. We tried everything, starter fluid, towed it and ended up towing it home. I figured the fuel pump was gone and when I started troubleshooting, somehow the EFI main relay had worked loose from the fuse block and fallen down inside the left kick panel! Live and Learn!
Anyway glad that you found the source of your problem and that clutch switch is easily adjusted.
Anyway glad that you found the source of your problem and that clutch switch is easily adjusted.
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