anndel

Awesome, that's exactly what I did to not get lost.

jay4runner

Yes, I did check out 22RE Performance but it doesn't appear that they ship to the great white north.

jay4runner

Can't get the darn timing cover off. Have removed water pump, oil pump and every bolt I can find (as per the diagram) as well as the bolt going down from under the distributor gear and the one going in from the back by the drivers side water pipe. Also, the two front oil pan bolts. But, I just can't get that cover to move. I'm not sure how much I might need to pursuade it. I realize there is a gasket and maybe some silicon but holy moly it won't budge.

wallytoo

iTrader: (1)

don’t forget the bolt under the timing gear at the camshaft, hidden by a pool of oil.

jay4runner

yup, I got that one

arlindsay1992

iTrader: (8)

There's a couple bolts that go into the cover from the backside. They hold various pipes and tubes on and I believe there's one on the driver's side that simply goes through the block into a threaded hole in the back of the cover. I could be wrong on that one. There's a lot of bolts through the timing cover and it wouldn't be surprising if one or two was hidden under years of grime.

If you truly have every bolt out, the silicone sealant from the pan to the cover will be stuck pretty good. You're trying to shear a lot of RTV by pulling the cover straight out. Secondly, gaskets which have been in place a long time usually stick pretty good, you have that happening up both sides of the timing cover. And thirdly, the cylinder head is clamping down on the timing cover from above. So with all that going on, it's probably stuck on there pretty good. Use a big rubber hammer or a block of wood and hammer the backside of the timing cover near the water inlet. There's some good meat there it should be alright as long as you're not going wild on it.

Keep in mind, the head is clamping down on the timing cover through the little loop of head gasket material at the front of the engine. When you remove the timing cover, that material will relax some. When you're putting it all back together, you are now trying to slide the timing cover against that soft graphite material of the head gasket while the head is still clamping down on the whole setup. You need to not tear or displace the head gasket during this maneuver. Simultaneously, the oil pan needs to seal to the bottom of the timing cover with a bit of RTV. But the timing cover is being slid across the RTV bead you applied, not placed directly onto it. So you're going to end up scooping most of the RTV away and plowing it in a big clump towards the block. Some people have claimed to do all this and have no problems, but I generally suggest removing the head.

jay4runner

Thanks. Yes, I did get that extra bolt on the backside of timing cover on drivers side near the water pipe. I plan to replace the oil pan gasket so perhaps it will help a bit if I release the whole pan because as you say the cover is jammed between head and pan which can't be helping. I will try hiting the cover from behind as you suggest. When I eventually get it off and go back to putting cover back on I can then slide the cover up to the bottom of head to meet the gasket (because the pan will be off). When I do so should I try to put some rtv on both sides of that bit of head gasket or just on the bottom part?

arlindsay1992

iTrader: (8)

There is no oil pan gasket on your year 22RE from factory. It's just silicone. This works very well. If your gasket kit comes with a cork oil pan gasket, do not use it. It is meant for earlier year engines and even there it's use is debated. Clean the bottom of the block and the oil pan of the old silicone and make sure there's no oil. A bead roughly 1/8" to 3/16" thick all the way around inboard of the bolt holes will seal it right up. This is all assuming you remove the pan entirely of course.

Removing the pan seems like it would help. You'll have to drop the front differential to get it out so have fun with that. When installing the timing cover, you can slide it up to mate with the head for the most part. There are alignment dowels between the timing cover and block so you do need to slide the timing cover 100% backwards against the head gasket but only for 1/8" or so. If for some reason I was doing this, I'd only apply RTV to the bottom of that loop of head gasket. Pulling it down to apply RTV to the top seems like it would invite damage.

I'll reiterate that I have always removed the head to replace the timing chain. I would always recommend removing the head to do this procedure if you have the means available. Downsides to removing the head are the cost of an OEM head gasket (I'll always recommend OEM), cost of new head bolts (about $100 between these two items), and the time to disconnect the intake and exhaust. Both manifolds can be left on the head if desired. There's a risk of a head bolt snapping, this has happened to some on rare occasions. Upsides are a decreased likelihood of oil leaks, resetting the clock on the head gasket, and resetting the clock on the head bolts being seized (if you don't remove the head, it's more likely that a head bolt will be seized should you HAVE to remove the head in the future). I understand sometimes the budget or time constraints tie your wrists to taking a shortcut. You gotta do what you gotta do to get by. But if you have the extra time and the cost isn't prohibitive, I'd recommend pulling the head.

arlindsay1992

iTrader: (8)

Of course, if you do pull the head because of me and a head bolt snaps off in the block, I'm going to feel really bad.

wallytoo

iTrader: (1)

i’ll echo arlindsay, changing the timing components is very simple when the head is removed. i’ve done it on each of my ‘87s; in fact, did it twice in the span of a few weeks on #1 because i forgot to torque the chain guide bolts properly, and one backed out. it dropped down and got lodged between the chain and crank sprocket, snapping the chain.

even though pulling the head takes some time, i cannot imagine the process being easier to drop the pan, or trying to get the cover wedged in between the pan and head gasket without damaging the gasket. ymmv.

in all three instances, i used osk components with plastic guides and an oem gasket, along with the original cover.

87-4runner

If my rigs weren't both turbo, I'd probably pull the head, but the turbo adds a whole new dynamic to head removal... it's a BIG deal!
plus the upgrade turbo is about #10 boost so blow by and other internal pressures have made it more difficult to stop leaks...
Not sure that boosted motors aren't prone to leaks... like owning an old Harley
lol

jay4runner

Ok, I got the TC off! Hurray! I removed most of the oil pan bolts and separated the pan at the front a bit (under the TC) and then a good swift tug on the water pipe of the TC separated it. So I can see very clearly that the chain has been doing a total number on the inside of my TC (the guide is nowhere to be seen. I was hoping to see an obvious "hole" where the chain tracks are and didn't see anything obvious. So I was initially disappointed thinking that this wasn't the reasons that coolant was mixing with oil. However, in the bottom edge of the channel that the chain has dug into the TC you can see the every so slight possible crack/discoloration. I can't get water to flow through it but I'm assuming that this is where the compromise is and where water is getting through when it is under pressure. So I will move forward with ordering all my timing chain/cover related parts. While I wait for parts I suppose I should endeavour to get the oil pan removed - not looking forward to that as all I see is a mass of huge parts blocking my way. Not being an expert on these parts it is a little unsettling for me. I have read online that I might be ok with loosening some front bold on the differential and removing a couple on the backside somewhere and then possibly swinging it down a bit. But there are a number of other obstacles down there it seems. Will have to try and figure it out.

On the head removal... $ and time aren't necessarily an issue for me (although the longer I keep this thing apart the more I worry about getting it all back together). My main concern with removing the head is taking more things apart and all that stuff off both sides of the engine. Actually, what do I have to take off? Maybe I only have to remove all that other stuff if I was talking out entire engine? Perhaps removing the cylinder head isn't that difficult? I better have another look and of course welcome any comments. The thing is though there is no real reason for me to think the HG is a problem at all - so the question maybe becomes whether you should replace the factory installed (from japan) HG just because you are almost there. Perhaps it is.

Oh, I do have another question for comment - trying to decide whether to replace the TC with something like an Aisin from Rockauto ($120) or one of the other brands such as ATP ($68) or even ITM ($48). I don't mind spending the extra for the US made Aisin if it is less likely to be problematic in any way. But if the others are absolutely as good and no more likely to be problematic then I would go with one. I am ordering the OSK TC kit along with US Aisin brand pumps (they are really no more expensive than the generic brands).

Thanks for everyone's comments/help - it is very encouraging for a person like me who has never done anything this significant to his vehicle.

jay4runner

if that happens what do you need to do?

arlindsay1992

iTrader: (8)

If the head bolt snaps in the block, hopefully it doesn't break off flush. Some real heat from a torch and some newer Vise Grips with good teeth will hopefully remove it. If it's flush with the deck, you'd likely have to pull the block and have a machine shop mill it out and fix up the threads. With this said, I'd say the odds are in your favor. I've had four or five 22RE's apart and never had any sort of issue with stuck head bolts. You can find a few build threads on here where a head bolt did break and see how they came through it, but more often than not, they don't cause any problems.

As for the timing cover, I'd go for Aisin or a used Toyota cover. I bought a truck which had an aftermarket timing cover installed when the previous owner replaced the chain. The holes for the oil pump were slightly off meaning the oil pump wasn't centered on the crankshaft. This lead to some pretty gnarly wear on the oil pump gears and the oil pump case. Another thing to look out for is the top of the timing cover being above or significantly below the surface of the block. Ideally, the timing cover and block are decked together so their top surfaces are perfectly coplanar. This isn't really practical to do if you're just replacing the cover. It maybe actually be cheaper to find a local welder and have him run a fat bead on the original timing cover to seal it back up. Just an idea.

jay4runner

Many thanks. I think I will go with the Aisin as you suggest. Even though this vehicle is over 30 years old and many many miles I usually do like to put the better stuff on my vehicles. I think this truck deserves it - it has been so good to me - 280k miles (450k km) and this is the first time anything has ever needed replacing (other than a clutch and shocks). Sorry, I do have another question that has crossed my mind having to do with the many bolts I have taken out on the timing cover and oil/water pumps. Is there any merit in replacing all these bolts? Also I see that most if not all of them have a couple washers on them including a lock washer - any need to replace the lock washer at least? Actually, can't seem to get those off anyways so if wanting to replace perhaps the entire bolt replacement would have to be done. Any thoughts on that?

arlindsay1992

iTrader: (8)

I wouldn't bother with that unless the bolts are damaged. I generally clean the bolts up in a small bucket of kerosene to cut the grease. If the threads are really gunked up a wire brush or ideally a wire wheel on a drill or bench grinder will clean them up shiny new. Beware doing this for chassis bolts, though. The wire wheel, if used aggressively, can remove the zinc plating and expose the bare steel. This will lead to rapid rusting and future issues with the fastener. As far as the little captured lock washer, don't worry about it. The bolts aren't going anywhere once installed.

jay4runner

Thanks!

snippits

My water pump bolts were pretty gnarly and rusty when I removed them, so I did replace all the water pump bolts. Ordered a set from 22RE Performance.

Also, consider replacing distributor shaft o-ring and distributor cap o-ring. I bought both from 22RE Performance.

jay4runner

thanks for that reminder. I'm no expert but I think there was some oil ( maybe a fair bit) getting out past that distributor.

87-4runner

Right under/ behind the dizzy is a common place for the timing cover gasket to leak