Problem with my 89 toyota pickup *pics*... please help!
02-04-2007, 06:42 PM
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Problem with my 89 toyota pickup *pics*... please help!
Here's the deal - I just bought an 89 Toyota Pickup 4wd 2.4L 4cyl excab, etc etc...
I took it to service yesterday for a tune-up and to see if they could get the CHECK ENGINE LIGHT to turn off. The guy I bought it from said it was because of a cable that was disconnected because it was missing a VCV valve :confused: (one of the cables that I circled, can't remember which). I had the guys at the shop figure it out and they connected it back on without the so called VCV valve:
CHECK ENGINE LIGHT did not turn off, so they figured out the CEL and it was because ACCORDING TO THEM it was missing an O2 sensor. They said that the previous owner must have cut it out. I got home and checked and there was the sensor so I have no idea what they were talking about.
I used the diagnostic mode and here are the CEL codes:
2, 5, 5, 1, 5, 2 and then it starts again...
I suppose that means - 25, 51, & 52.
I have two problems - one is that the check engine light is on and I'm not sure what needs to be done, and the other problem is that after turning the engine on for a while, if I turn it off and try to start the engine again, it dies. If I get it to last a few seconds before the engine starts to die, I can push the gas pedal a little and get it to idle correctly at about 900 rpm and then it won't die. This won't happen when the car is cold - it'll start right up and idle at about 1,100 rpm. I've also noticed that sometimes when driving around (after it has warmed up) it idles at about 400-600 rpm.
In an attempt to solve this, I just replaced the O2 sensor with a new one, but I'm getting the same CEL codes and now I can also smell something burning down there... (the new O2 sensor?)
I have also noticed that truck lacks power - it annoys people behind me at red lights because it's so slow from a stop. If I floor the throttle it will actually go slower than if I push down on it an inch or two...
Also, the coolant temp. sensor gauge shows the temperature being unusually low - it takes about 25 minutes of driving the truck to get it to show normal temperature, (needle in the center). Now that I think about it, I don't think it's ever made it to the center between cold and hot.
What should I do... I have the Haynes repair manual and have tried to figure it out but I can't and I must admit, I'm a n00b to working on cars... I definitely want to learn!
I took it to service yesterday for a tune-up and to see if they could get the CHECK ENGINE LIGHT to turn off. The guy I bought it from said it was because of a cable that was disconnected because it was missing a VCV valve :confused: (one of the cables that I circled, can't remember which). I had the guys at the shop figure it out and they connected it back on without the so called VCV valve:
CHECK ENGINE LIGHT did not turn off, so they figured out the CEL and it was because ACCORDING TO THEM it was missing an O2 sensor. They said that the previous owner must have cut it out. I got home and checked and there was the sensor so I have no idea what they were talking about.
I used the diagnostic mode and here are the CEL codes:
2, 5, 5, 1, 5, 2 and then it starts again...
I suppose that means - 25, 51, & 52.
Originally Posted by Toyota
25: Air-Fuel Ratio Lean.
51: Switch signal.
52: Knock Sensor signal.
51: Switch signal.
52: Knock Sensor signal.
In an attempt to solve this, I just replaced the O2 sensor with a new one, but I'm getting the same CEL codes and now I can also smell something burning down there... (the new O2 sensor?)
I have also noticed that truck lacks power - it annoys people behind me at red lights because it's so slow from a stop. If I floor the throttle it will actually go slower than if I push down on it an inch or two...
Also, the coolant temp. sensor gauge shows the temperature being unusually low - it takes about 25 minutes of driving the truck to get it to show normal temperature, (needle in the center). Now that I think about it, I don't think it's ever made it to the center between cold and hot.
What should I do... I have the Haynes repair manual and have tried to figure it out but I can't and I must admit, I'm a n00b to working on cars... I definitely want to learn!
Last edited by INFIDEL; 02-04-2007 at 07:27 PM.
02-04-2007, 06:57 PM
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I had a similar problem with my 3.0L (it's since been sold), but definitely not as drastic as yours. It seems to be the warm restart issue, as you had described. I would be interested in knowing how this resolves for you. I could not figure mine out.
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02-04-2007, 06:59 PM
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Well 25 and 52 run hand in hand. If your lean you may knock. Go to advanced auto and get some of the Octane Booster. Run that in your tank for a week and I bet the check light goes off. Either that or it will stop flagging the knock and lean signs.
It sounds like theres a problem with a sensor somewhere that is giving your ECU false data. False data going to your ECU can cause your fuel ratio tables to get knocked off therefore causing you to run lean. Lean = knocks due to detination. I doubt anything will happen damage wise because if your engine is telling you its knocking it should auto retard your timing to stop it.
After catching your bottom part (missed it first read) about lacking power your timing is definatly being retarded to stop your engine from exploding. Just be glad you've got that ECU. If it was a carb your truck would probably have a blown ring.
What you need it someone who knows what sensors go hand in hand with your fuel table and theres your problem. That I dont know... God you learn alot about compression and detonation when you have draw out 30 plans for supercharged sbc's...
It sounds like theres a problem with a sensor somewhere that is giving your ECU false data. False data going to your ECU can cause your fuel ratio tables to get knocked off therefore causing you to run lean. Lean = knocks due to detination. I doubt anything will happen damage wise because if your engine is telling you its knocking it should auto retard your timing to stop it.
After catching your bottom part (missed it first read) about lacking power your timing is definatly being retarded to stop your engine from exploding. Just be glad you've got that ECU. If it was a carb your truck would probably have a blown ring.
What you need it someone who knows what sensors go hand in hand with your fuel table and theres your problem. That I dont know... God you learn alot about compression and detonation when you have draw out 30 plans for supercharged sbc's...
Last edited by Stomis; 02-04-2007 at 07:02 PM.
02-04-2007, 07:04 PM
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Well 25 and 52 run hand in hand. If your lean you may knock. Go to advanced auto and get some of the Octane Booster. Run that in your tank for a week and I bet the check light goes off. Either that or it will stop flagging the knock and lean signs.
It sounds like theres a problem with a sensor somewhere that is giving your ECU false data. False data going to your ECU can cause your fuel ratio tables to get knocked off therefore causing you to run lean. Lean = knocks due to detination. I doubt anything will happen damage wise because if your engine is telling you its knocking it should auto retard your timing to stop it.
After catching your bottom part (missed it first read) about lacking power your timing is definatly being retarded to stop your engine from exploding. Just be glad you've got that ECU. If it was a carb your truck would probably have a blown ring.
What you need it someone who knows what sensors go hand in hand with your fuel table and theres your problem. That I dont know... God you learn alot about compression and detonation when you have draw out 30 plans for supercharged sbc's...
It sounds like theres a problem with a sensor somewhere that is giving your ECU false data. False data going to your ECU can cause your fuel ratio tables to get knocked off therefore causing you to run lean. Lean = knocks due to detination. I doubt anything will happen damage wise because if your engine is telling you its knocking it should auto retard your timing to stop it.
After catching your bottom part (missed it first read) about lacking power your timing is definatly being retarded to stop your engine from exploding. Just be glad you've got that ECU. If it was a carb your truck would probably have a blown ring.
What you need it someone who knows what sensors go hand in hand with your fuel table and theres your problem. That I dont know... God you learn alot about compression and detonation when you have draw out 30 plans for supercharged sbc's...
thanks for your response!
02-04-2007, 07:11 PM
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Well the octane booster is like a bandaid to the problem if that is the problem... (which it really seems like it is). Basically the computer is saying hey give the engine this much potency of fuel and your engine is gasping for more. When it doest have enough you get premature detonation which detonates the fuel in the cylinder out of sync and incorrectly.
What your truck is doing right now is retarding your timing to allow that amount of fuel potency to satisfy your engine. The result is major decrease in power though and the ECU knowing something is off. By adding an octane booster it makes less gas worth more in the detination process. The added octane will prevent the detonation aka knock therefor allowing the computer to sense the engine running fine. Its basically tricking the truck into thinking its running correctly (because it is just not done the right way).
You could keep feeding it octane booster but in the end it will add up to more that the cost of your bad sensor. You never know it could be such a minor knock that running super gas will fix it.
What your truck is doing right now is retarding your timing to allow that amount of fuel potency to satisfy your engine. The result is major decrease in power though and the ECU knowing something is off. By adding an octane booster it makes less gas worth more in the detination process. The added octane will prevent the detonation aka knock therefor allowing the computer to sense the engine running fine. Its basically tricking the truck into thinking its running correctly (because it is just not done the right way).
You could keep feeding it octane booster but in the end it will add up to more that the cost of your bad sensor. You never know it could be such a minor knock that running super gas will fix it.
02-04-2007, 07:14 PM
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Well the octane booster is like a bandaid to the problem if that is the problem... (which it really seems like it is). Basically the computer is saying hey give the engine this much potency of fuel and your engine is gasping for more. When it doest have enough you get premature detonation which detonates the fuel in the cylinder out of sync and incorrectly.
What your truck is doing right now is retarding your timing to allow that amount of fuel potency to satisfy your engine. The result is major decrease in power though and the ECU knowing something is off. By adding an octane booster it makes less gas worth more in the detination process. The added octane will prevent the detonation aka knock therefor allowing the computer to sense the engine running fine. Its basically tricking the truck into thinking its running correctly (because it is just not done the right way).
You could keep feeding it octane booster but in the end it will add up to more that the cost of your bad sensor. You never know it could be such a minor knock that running super gas will fix it.
What your truck is doing right now is retarding your timing to allow that amount of fuel potency to satisfy your engine. The result is major decrease in power though and the ECU knowing something is off. By adding an octane booster it makes less gas worth more in the detination process. The added octane will prevent the detonation aka knock therefor allowing the computer to sense the engine running fine. Its basically tricking the truck into thinking its running correctly (because it is just not done the right way).
You could keep feeding it octane booster but in the end it will add up to more that the cost of your bad sensor. You never know it could be such a minor knock that running super gas will fix it.
02-04-2007, 07:19 PM
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My truck ran lean because my mass air was worn out. I went online and did a search and I found a "how to refurbish your mass air " link. Inside your mass air is a hinged baffle that opens up as more air is sucked into your motor. This baffle is connected to a "sweep needle" that rubs against a "sensing pad". The problem is that with age the needle rubs grooves into the sensing pad and messes up the mass air reading to the motor and the truck runs like crap while driving, especially on the highway. I did this 3 years ago and works fine still. Unfortunately, I don't remember the site. This could be your problem as with a bad reading it could make your truck run lean thus trigger your knock sensor because of detonation.
Also, I have the same problem with the warm starting issue but not as bad as you. Theres a cold start injector that feeds extra fuel into your motor to aid in cold starting. When the engine is warm, if the injector is activated, it will bog out your motor because it is flooding out your engine with excess fuel. If your coolant temp. sensor (not the sending unit for the temp guage) is out of wack, it could be sending the wrong temp to the computer thus triggering the cold start injector at too high a temp or worse, screwing up your entire fuel curve and sacrificing power throughout the entire power range.
I hope this helps. Good luck.
Also, I have the same problem with the warm starting issue but not as bad as you. Theres a cold start injector that feeds extra fuel into your motor to aid in cold starting. When the engine is warm, if the injector is activated, it will bog out your motor because it is flooding out your engine with excess fuel. If your coolant temp. sensor (not the sending unit for the temp guage) is out of wack, it could be sending the wrong temp to the computer thus triggering the cold start injector at too high a temp or worse, screwing up your entire fuel curve and sacrificing power throughout the entire power range.
I hope this helps. Good luck.
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02-04-2007, 07:23 PM
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My truck ran lean because my mass air was worn out. I went online and did a search and I found a "how to refurbish your mass air " link. Inside your mass air is a hinged baffle that opens up as more air is sucked into your motor. This baffle is connected to a "sweep needle" that rubs against a "sensing pad". The problem is that with age the needle rubs grooves into the sensing pad and messes up the mass air reading to the motor and the truck runs like crap while driving, especially on the highway. I did this 3 years ago and works fine still. Unfortunately, I don't remember the site. This could be your problem as with a bad reading it could make your truck run lean thus trigger your knock sensor because of detonation.
Also, I have the same problem with the warm starting issue but not as bad as you. Theres a cold start injector that feeds extra fuel into your motor to aid in cold starting. When the engine is warm, if the injector is activated, it will bog out your motor because it is flooding out your engine with excess fuel. If your coolant temp. sensor (not the sending unit for the temp guage) is out of wack, it could be sending the wrong temp to the computer thus triggering the cold start injector at too high a temp or worse, screwing up your entire fuel curve and sacrificing power throughout the entire power range.
I hope this helps. Good luck.
Also, I have the same problem with the warm starting issue but not as bad as you. Theres a cold start injector that feeds extra fuel into your motor to aid in cold starting. When the engine is warm, if the injector is activated, it will bog out your motor because it is flooding out your engine with excess fuel. If your coolant temp. sensor (not the sending unit for the temp guage) is out of wack, it could be sending the wrong temp to the computer thus triggering the cold start injector at too high a temp or worse, screwing up your entire fuel curve and sacrificing power throughout the entire power range.
I hope this helps. Good luck.
Last edited by INFIDEL; 02-04-2007 at 07:46 PM.
02-04-2007, 07:47 PM
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No, you're talking about the temp. sending unit. The temp SENSOR tells the computer what the coolant temp is so it can adjust the fuel delivery accordingly. Cold air has more density and requires more fuel to compensate then hot air. The temp SENDING UNIT is for the temp guage. Sounds like your guage is working properly. Most pickups i've been in rarely get hotter then halfway.
02-04-2007, 07:51 PM
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No, you're talking about the temp. sending unit. The temp SENSOR tells the computer what the coolant temp is so it can adjust the fuel delivery accordingly. Cold air has more density and requires more fuel to compensate then hot air. The temp SENDING UNIT is for the temp guage. Sounds like your guage is working properly. Most pickups i've been in rarely get hotter then halfway.
02-04-2007, 07:59 PM
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have your timing looked at, your lean air/fuel is what is causing the truck to kick you the code for that and the knock sensor...as for the signal sensor code, maybe it has something to do with what your supposedly missing?
as i said, get your timing checked, sounds to me like its way off, thus causing your loss of power, etc
as i said, get your timing checked, sounds to me like its way off, thus causing your loss of power, etc
02-04-2007, 08:03 PM
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02-05-2007, 09:24 AM
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It could be a number of different things, like everyone is saying, and you'll just have to start tracking it down.
Mentioned, and worth checking:
Timing
ECT (engine coolant temp sensor...not sending unit)
Thermostat
And more:http://www.off-road.com/toyota/tech/codes/index.html
There are two dummy plugs, yellow in color, along side the driver's side wheel well in the engine compartment...up top, behind the AFM. They are side by side and hopefully plugged into two respective dead-end boots. The bigger one you can jump with a paper clip and it will flash your codes as you are tracking this problem down. (Effectively bypassing going to the dealer) You'll need an Ohm/Volt meter to start testing sensors and what not. Look for bad wires and or burnt/rusty plugs. Check any possible related fuses. Keep posting what you find.
Mentioned, and worth checking:
Timing
ECT (engine coolant temp sensor...not sending unit)
Thermostat
And more:http://www.off-road.com/toyota/tech/codes/index.html
There are two dummy plugs, yellow in color, along side the driver's side wheel well in the engine compartment...up top, behind the AFM. They are side by side and hopefully plugged into two respective dead-end boots. The bigger one you can jump with a paper clip and it will flash your codes as you are tracking this problem down. (Effectively bypassing going to the dealer) You'll need an Ohm/Volt meter to start testing sensors and what not. Look for bad wires and or burnt/rusty plugs. Check any possible related fuses. Keep posting what you find.
02-05-2007, 05:10 PM
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UPDATE:
So I just got off the phone with the dealer. He said it's completely missing the KNOCK SENSOR and didn't even know if they could fix this. They will only know tomorrow after asking their shop foreman.
Is this bad news? What do you guys think... am I screwed?
So I just got off the phone with the dealer. He said it's completely missing the KNOCK SENSOR and didn't even know if they could fix this. They will only know tomorrow after asking their shop foreman.
Is this bad news? What do you guys think... am I screwed?
02-05-2007, 08:12 PM
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I'm guessing that the AFM is sticking, but there's no way to know without seeing it in person.
The reason there are so many opinions is that the EFI can do all sorts of strange things when it's sick. You just have to go thru it step-by-step and start eliminating things until you find the problem.
BTW: It looks like someone tried to epoxy the VSV in the picture (3:00 position, top picture). That particular VSV goes to the air resonator system. The blue VSV one controls the fuel pressure regulator.
Finally, just to add another possible item, a weak fuel pump or bad pressure regulator can also cause the engine to run very lean. Isn't fuel injection fun?
The reason there are so many opinions is that the EFI can do all sorts of strange things when it's sick. You just have to go thru it step-by-step and start eliminating things until you find the problem.
BTW: It looks like someone tried to epoxy the VSV in the picture (3:00 position, top picture). That particular VSV goes to the air resonator system. The blue VSV one controls the fuel pressure regulator.
Finally, just to add another possible item, a weak fuel pump or bad pressure regulator can also cause the engine to run very lean. Isn't fuel injection fun?
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