Just Learning

quaker state 10w-40 change every 2k miles 188k on 22re runs good

rangerruck

I did not know that about Lead; however zddp doesn't sound near as harmful to peeps or the evironment. But you are starting to wear me down; if the oil companies can find a replacement additive, then zddp won't be needed.

lonecountryboy

GM used higher levels of ZDDP in the late 60's I believe to help with the wear on some of there high lift cam's. Since then it has been an effective anti-wear agent in pushrod engines but yes it can damage the cat, for the yota engines you don't need to worry about it use whatever oil you want. On a new engine for the first start up I would probably use it for the break in and then not worry about it. Any modern engine in almost anything doesn't need the same amount that an older push rod engine needs, and if it is not a high lift cam application it probably is ok to run any oil you want. I do know that the engine builders in my area were warned about it by the cam companies a couple of years ago but that was mainly for break ins. Shell rotella T has adequate ZDDP levels as of now but that might change and they make that brand in a wide variety of weights. I used to run the 10-30 in my old chev but since I don't have it anymore I just run Mobil 1 synthentic in all my rigs since they are overhead cams or roller cams. If you have an older vehicle with a pushrod type engine you might want to look into it a little more but if you have a yota don't worry about it.

broncbob

The amount of ZDDP in diesel oils shouldn't effect the cat unless your burning large amounts of oil, in that case your cat is most likely very unhappy any how. I have run it for better than 60K in the bronco and the O2 sensor and after market high flow cat are still happy and passes state emissions test with flying colors.

Oils from the era the that the 20R and 22R-E engines we deal with in these trucks had higher amounts of ZDDP in them. Not tons and tons of it mind you but higher levels of what is in most oils on the shelf at your parts store today. It was in there to help out the flat tappet and lifter set ups like we have.

The result of the lower levels present today is faster lifter wear. How much? That is up for debate. I plan to run the oil that is affordable and has higher levels of ZDDP in my junk. If you chose not to, that is your choice, and I'm not going to lose sleep over my or your choice. Worst case is your lifters wear faster than mine, or my cat get's plugged faster than yours. Or maybe nothing at all, and we all fell good about the choice we make about the oils we dump in out engine.

I can tell you that there has be documented faster wear in motorcycle engines using oils with lower amounts of ZDDP. But the forces on those valve trains is huge, and that they are pushed very hard with RPM ranges into the low 10's to the high 15's before red line.

rangerruck

lonecountry; you seem to be pretty knowledgeable on the subject, with some insight from a car company. Is it also possible, and I am just thinking out loud here, that becuase of the gravity/physics aspect, that zddp is not even needed at all, in a overhead cam setup? Except for maybe break in period?

Not only that , but do the 95 and before engines, whatever size, did they even have overhead cam engines, or did that come later, or to a specific yota engine or three?

shaeff

Hopefully not synthetic... Even for dino oil, 2k mile oil changes are excessive, unless you're really beating the piss out of that pickup.

For what it's worth- I run any decent brand of 5w30 synthetic year round in my '94 22re 4x4, and change my oil every 6-8k miles, filter changes at 4k. (all depending on how the truck was driven during that interval)

Also, something that many people overlook- having a good air filter is a key factor to keeping your oil clean. An no, K&N is NOT the answer.

highway

Think with your dipstick Jimmy ....whack

lonecountryboy

Rangerruck,
I have done a lot of research on the subject and have read quite a few interesting reports and the whys and hows of ZDDP. I wish I would have saved the links for some of those reports but I lost all that when my computer crashed awhile back. And you are correct the forces at play in a pushrod type engine are far different than an overhead cam setup or a roller cam setup. Funny thing is if you have to much ZDDP it is bad for your engine also it will cause galling so there is a fine line there, but like I said you shouldn't have to worry about it with any of the yota engines. Just run a good synthetic oil which is a post all by itself because of a whole bunch of different reasons.

Donsway

I am in the middle of a 22re rebuild so been reading a lot about this. Know from playing with Chevy engs. that non-roller cams are hurting with the new bans on oil. Here is a site I ran across that is up to date on info.

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums...ad.php?t=80715

Hope to do a write up on my build soon. Took 3 months for the shop to get me back the block the first time. I put the short block together and checked what needed to come off the deck (.012) to give me 0 deck heigth. Took it back apart and the block is back at the shop to get decked. Hope it is faster this time.

MudHippy

Did you know that what are refered to as "break-in" oils all contain higher levels of ZDDP?

Worth considering for someone doing a rebuild.

flyingbrass

Redline sells a "break-in" additive for somewhere around $12 a bottle. From what I've been able to determine so far, 1/4 bottle each oil change (~5 quarts oil) is supposed to be about right to bump ZDDP in SM oils (800ish ppm) up to the 1200 ppm range of the older stuff. Redline's own oils already have adequate ZDDP.

Other break-in additives are available, but Redline's seems to be a good bang for the buck if 1/4 bottle each oil change will do the trick.

I've read that up to 2200 ppm is ideal for initial run-in. 1200 ppm for normal use.

rangerruck

the more I read from the links in the posts above, the more I am convinced , that some zddp is needed; either from some old school or 4 cyl made stp, or from kendall, now called Bob's oil(?), or some good valvoline or castrol.

rhill

ya'll should search for the 200,000+ mile club, and ask them what oil/additives they run.

Teuf

I would think that most quality oils hit the mark, they spend plenty on R&D.

turboboost

Lots of the Gen 1 small block guys use Rotella T in their motors because of the extra zinc content. But to answer your question, no it's not necessary on our motors.

rangerruck

...except I have bought a 1st gen., from the Orig owner, and it has 250 k on it; i want to run the absolute best oil for it I can, and if it needs zinc , i want to make sure it is getting it.

mt_goat

I think that is a good term to use "non-roller cams", well maybe not the "cam" part, but "non-roller lifters" anyway. Our engines are not rollerized, the cam slides on a piece of flat metal. Sure I guess its not as bad as an old flat tappet camshaft in the SBC engines as far as fiction, but I can see where it would require better lubrication than the roller lifters. And because of that is makes sense to me that the HDEOs (heavy duty engine oils) with higher ZDDP additives would help prolong the life of these Toyota engines. I'm not really concerned about cat life, my current cat cost $60 3 years ago LOL. Plus I don't burn oil now anyway. Anyone see a flaw in that theory?

Some of the guys over on "Bob is the oil guy" are pretty high on Rotella Syn 5w40 (RTS).

UOA: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1810014&page=1

UOA: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...91#Post1361791

That 2nd one the guy had better wear numbers @ an 8000 mile OCI with the 5W40 HDEO than he did with M1 5W30 @ a 3000 mile OCI, pretty impressive.

BITOG disscussion about it (including one former Shell guy): http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1730627&page=1

Same retired Shell guy confirms in this quote, from this thread: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1725770&page=1

Here he confirms it is a group III+ formula:

Note the newer formula hasn't been out very long and not many have done UOA on it, but it appears to be basically the same as the older formula but with better shear resistance and better cold temp flow. But it does have an SM rating now so the ZDDP content may have been reduced. UOA will tell for sure.

The new formula is called Rotella T6 Syn, $19.50/gal at Wally world. Yes it is still considered a HDEO (heavy duty engine oil) and is mainly sold as a diesel truck oil. http://www-static.shell.com/static/c...rotella_t6.pdf

I'm trying it for my next fill, I'll pull a sample for a UOA at about 3400 miles.

EDIT: I found a UOA on the new T6: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...1809673&page=1

Looks like from these numbers they didn't reduce the ZDDP:

Donsway

I'm sure it is the cams that are getting wiped out, so non-roller cams would be right on. It is a term used often.

One thing that the 22rs have over the SBCs is that the cams in the 22rs are in a bath of oil. Where the SBCs only get what the crank slings up on them. Have to say, liking the 22rs more everytime I look into something. Great little eng.

rangerruck

What does sbc stand for/ and also is it safe to say, that any Toyota engine built after say about 1978, all use overhead or roller cams, and not flat tappet?

mt_goat

SBC = small block Chevy. None of our engines here are rollerized, even with the dual overhead cams (5ZVFE) the cam still slides on a piece of flat metal (bucket), no roller.

Here's an example pic of a roller lifter: http://www.myrideisme.com/Blog/camsh...pet-vs-roller/