Did EGR removal and WoW
10-31-2010, 11:31 AM
#61
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There is no true vacuum in an internal combustion engine. There is only pressure less than atmospheric. Exhaust gas does reduce the chances of detonation. But they also dirty your air fuel mixture. Not good. Not good for power.
10-31-2010, 02:03 PM
#62
So what you're saying is that higher numbers do what?
Overall,
The graph shows higher exhaust temps with the 'red' trace. (upper trace)
The graph shows higher average torque from the 'blue' trace. (middle trace)
The graph shows higher average HP from the 'blue' trace. (bottom trace)
Since blue is with EGR and red is without EGR...
So, you're right- a picture does speak a thousand words.
It says you get more power, on average, with EGR than without.
Then again, who knows what engine that trace was made from?
Overall,
The graph shows higher exhaust temps with the 'red' trace. (upper trace)
The graph shows higher average torque from the 'blue' trace. (middle trace)
The graph shows higher average HP from the 'blue' trace. (bottom trace)
Since blue is with EGR and red is without EGR...
So, you're right- a picture does speak a thousand words.
It says you get more power, on average, with EGR than without.
Then again, who knows what engine that trace was made from?
Waste o' breath...
The automotive engineers figured that they needed to do something to lower the peak combustion temperatures which only occurred under certain high load driving conditions. They figured they could do so at the expense of power and fuel economy but what the heck, ya can't have everything! If they could only add something to the combustion chamber that would act like sort of a fire extinguisher to cool the combustion temperatures that would do it.
Pretty basic principle there. Hinder engine performance to comply with emissions regulations. Man...it's NOT rocket science!
Don't stress on the idiocy prevelant here. Just let them run their mouths...makes no real difference when all's said and done.
10-31-2010, 02:08 PM
#63
Registered User
A properly functioning EGR setup will increase gas mileage. There is no noticeable power difference when removing the EGR if it's working properly. Trust me, I know. I have no EGR on my Pickup- one of the dumber things I've done.
10-31-2010, 02:59 PM
#64
What're you bitching about it for anyway? Put it back on there if you're so dissatisfied with the engine's performance without it. Exactly who's stopping you from doing so?
Last edited by MudHippy; 10-31-2010 at 03:00 PM.
10-31-2010, 04:40 PM
#65
Registered User
Hmmm, a properly functioning EGR setup will increase gas mileage? No it won't, not by design anyway. Functioning properly what exactly do they do again? They lower peak combustion temps, lower NOx emissions, lower power output and lower fuel economy. BY DESIGN! That's the trade-off, plain and simple. Lowering the peak combustion temperature = lower power output and lower fuel economy = lower NOx emissions. Ever heard "there's no such thing as a free lunch"? It's very true you know? Unless you think Toyota makes special "magic" EGR valves that only do good for an engine(please...as if!). They do more damage than that too. All that carbon build-up in the intake does wonders for engine performance. Especially on top of the other performance negating effects of the "properly functioning" EGR system in action(talk about an oxymoron!). If they could just make a device that would lower combustion temps and foul up your intake better than an EGR valve, imagine the power and efficiency gains to be had there! Gee I wonder why nobody's made one of those yet? Where is the "high-performance" EGR valve market anyway. Sounds like somebody could really make a killing there.
What're you bitching about it for anyway? Put it back on there if you're so dissatisfied with the engine's performance without it. Exactly who's stopping you from doing so?
What're you bitching about it for anyway? Put it back on there if you're so dissatisfied with the engine's performance without it. Exactly who's stopping you from doing so?
Here are mine:
Take a few moments to read over the full tech article if you'd like, www.autoshop101.com -> Technical Articles -> 61 Emission#7 - Exhaust Gas Recirculation.pdf file size 227KB. All that information is right on the very first page of the Toyota Tech article.
The EGR's primary function is as you stated, to lower NOx and combustion temps. However, a side beneift of that is increased fuel economy. Hey, I'm not saying that over years of use that carbon build up isn't going to happen, but I will say that when I pulled the manifold off my pickup while doing the headgasket, there wasn't anything out of the ordinary going on there, which brings us back to square one, properly maintained vehicle and proper operation of the EGR.
No need to put it back on, I'm not complaining, that was just a statement. You don't catch me whining about my mileage. I'm dropping a 7M in the truck next summer anyhow, so I'm not concerned as I'll be running a MAFTpro set up with lean burn and will be pushing very close to 30mpg with it.
Edit: forgot to mention that since the ECU takes into account when the EGR will operate (cruising, for example), it lowers injection pulse which means less fuel. Without the inert exhaust gas being routed to the intake, coupled with the decreased fuel (fuel is a coolant, remember that) you have an increased chance at detonation. Especially when cruising up long hills in hot weather. I'm not saying it's definitely going to happen, but the possibility is certainly increased.
I'm not entirely sure what all your attitude is about, this could be a productive discussion.
And about your high performance EGR question, there's no need because it comes factory on your vehicle already. Talk about free lunch!
Last edited by shaeff; 10-31-2010 at 04:44 PM.
11-01-2010, 10:48 AM
#68
Therefor, the ECM is capable of neutralizing the negative performance aspects of EGR by programming additional spark advance and decreased fuel injection duration during periods of high EGR flow. By integrating fuel and spark control, engine performance can actually be enhanced when the EGR system is functioning as designed.
Definition of the word neutralize: to make neutral, counteract, to render ineffective or nullify the effect of.
What's that statement really mean then?
Makes perfect sense to me. The ECM can change certain parameters to effectively make the engine operate as if the EGR system weren't there. It says nothing about increased performance above what the engine could achieve without the EGR system. Instead it states, rather misleadingly, that engine performance can actually be enhanced when the EGR system is functioning as designed. When it's just stated, one sentence prior, that the actions taken by the ECM to enhance performance are to regain(or in their terms neutralize)the performance lost by the functioning of the EGR system.
I can see how one could be confused by that particular explaination though. It's just not worded cleverly enough to fool me. I happen to have a full understanding of what EGR systems do and don't do. Enhancing engine performance via exhaust gas recirculation is a physical impossibility. It will NEVER happen in this universe, period. Physics is my strong suit, and is a solid base from which the understanding of internal combustion engine operation is very simple to grasp I might add. You could try reading up on thermal dynamics. Specifically, how is heat related to pressure? How do those things apply to internal combustion engine operation? When one lowers the temperature of the combustion process, and therefor the positive pressure within the cylinders, what effect does that have on engine power output?
Perhaps the effects of the inert(unburnable)gasses on the combustion process can be alleviated by ECM programming. Big whoop! You're back to square one! And that still doesn't address the issue of contamination. Or the fact that if the ECM were to advance the ignition timing and shorten fuel injection durations without having to do those things to neutralize the performance negating effects of the EGR system, then the net gains of those actions WOULD enhance engine performance beyond what's achievable with the EGR system functioning properly.
My point: remove the EGR and let the ECM run it's EGR related programming. The effects of which will now be truly performance enhancing. Not just "neutralization" of performance negation. Remember that the ECM has NO WAY of knowing whether or not the EGR system is operational or is even installed on many of these engines. This isn't the case on some the newer engines of this era(86-95). But can be easily overcome if you simply apply a 10k ohm resistor to the EGR temp sensor and fool the ECM into believing the system is operational. As many have done and will attest to the effectiveness of. Mine has no such sensor so the performance gains I achieved were as easy to come by as just simply removing the EGR system from the engine. Extra power and no contamination easy as pie(still not a free lunch I'm afraid, but very affordable)! I think it cost me around an hour of my time. Worth every penny!
Get it yet? You guys can't win this one. Sorry.
Keep trying though, if you must...
Last edited by MudHippy; 11-01-2010 at 12:07 PM.
11-01-2010, 11:31 AM
#70
You're free to skip over my posts. No one's forcing you to read them. Being's how many people find them very useful, far more than don't, I'll gladly keep contributing my thoughts in an effort to provide truth and technically accurate information for the masses. Call it civil service, I do. It's my goal to be of help here, by saving people time and money on their vehicular repairs and enhancements. I'm not one for small talk/chit-chat, or as you say "dribble". And if there weren't so many idiotic fallacies being posted on a daily basis here, maybe I'd have less to say. In fact I know I would. Nothing get's my goat more than rampant stupidity and misinformation though. No bull allowed on my watch!
And, BTW, I'd gladly accept your donations to my "dyno evidence" fund. I see such spending as being of little to no value to me personally. What sense is there in doing that when the main goal would be to satisfy the nay-sayers? Which even then it likely wouldn't. What do I get out of the deal? My engine runs great! I'm well aware of the fact! Numbers and lines on a graph chart won't make it run any better. Seems my money is therefor better spent on other things. But, like I said, you buy I'll fly! I've got no objections to that.
Here's the dyno evidence that's already been provided to you in this thread. Not that you have the mental capacity to decipher it. But, if you did it's plain as day what it's telling you. But let's try again anyway, it goes like this:
Blue line represents engine performance WITHOUT an operating EGR system .
Red line represents engine performance WITH the EGR system operational.
No huge difference between both sets of data. But it's never been claimed that there should/would be. Every little bit counts though, and even more so in the long run.
Sidenote: Huckstorf Diesel is the name of the shop that runs that particular dynamometer. NOT the name given to a diesel engine that was tested on the apparatus.
And, BTW, I'd gladly accept your donations to my "dyno evidence" fund. I see such spending as being of little to no value to me personally. What sense is there in doing that when the main goal would be to satisfy the nay-sayers? Which even then it likely wouldn't. What do I get out of the deal? My engine runs great! I'm well aware of the fact! Numbers and lines on a graph chart won't make it run any better. Seems my money is therefor better spent on other things. But, like I said, you buy I'll fly! I've got no objections to that.
Here's the dyno evidence that's already been provided to you in this thread. Not that you have the mental capacity to decipher it. But, if you did it's plain as day what it's telling you. But let's try again anyway, it goes like this:
Blue line represents engine performance WITHOUT an operating EGR system .
Red line represents engine performance WITH the EGR system operational.
No huge difference between both sets of data. But it's never been claimed that there should/would be. Every little bit counts though, and even more so in the long run.
Sidenote: Huckstorf Diesel is the name of the shop that runs that particular dynamometer. NOT the name given to a diesel engine that was tested on the apparatus.
Last edited by MudHippy; 11-01-2010 at 12:03 PM.
11-01-2010, 11:59 AM
#71
Registered User
Proof mud hippy is lying!
Blue line represents engine performance WITHOUT an operating EGR system .
Red line represents engine performance WITH the EGR system operational.
No huge difference between both sets of data. But it's never been claimed that there should/would be. Every little bit counts though, and even more so in the long run.
Sidenote: Huckstorf Diesel is the name of the shop that runs that particular dynamometer. NOT the name given to a diesel engine that was tested on the apparatus.
Red line represents engine performance WITH the EGR system operational.
No huge difference between both sets of data. But it's never been claimed that there should/would be. Every little bit counts though, and even more so in the long run.
Sidenote: Huckstorf Diesel is the name of the shop that runs that particular dynamometer. NOT the name given to a diesel engine that was tested on the apparatus.
HERE IS THE PROOF!
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us
11-01-2010, 12:16 PM
#72
Thanks to Huckstorf Diesel of Franklin, WI for putting on the event.
If you're still meaning to suggest that EGR deletion is only effective on diesel engines, the notion of which has no basis in reality, then it's not me who's telling lies.
Nope! That'd be you hoss!
11-01-2010, 12:54 PM
#73
Registered User
Lying? About what?
Huckstorf Diesel of Franklin, WI is not a diesel engine! It's a diesel performance shop in Franklin Wisconsin.
If you're still meaning to suggest that EGR deletion is only effective on diesel engines, the notion of which has no basis in reality, then it's not me who's telling lies.
Nope! That'd be you hoss!
Huckstorf Diesel of Franklin, WI is not a diesel engine! It's a diesel performance shop in Franklin Wisconsin.
If you're still meaning to suggest that EGR deletion is only effective on diesel engines, the notion of which has no basis in reality, then it's not me who's telling lies.
Nope! That'd be you hoss!
So if you want to talk about EGR on a DIESEL ENGINE, start another thread, do not post a dynograph without telling people that you are talking about a diesel engine since most of them did not notice. You threw many people off by posting that dyno graph which still does not prove anything unless you back it up with the whole story. I can post pictures of dynographs too but that does not prove anything.
James
11-01-2010, 01:41 PM
#74
Registered User
Your posting a dynograph of a DIESEL ENGINE!! What part do you not understand? Gas and diesels are not the same animal. We are talking about a GAS engine. Yes EGR deletion does work on a DIESEL because it is very critical to keep the EGT from going high in a turbo charged diesel. On a gas engine, it is there for emissions and prevent spark knock. So if you EGR is working properly, then removing it will not GAIN performance(gas engine)! Disconnecting it instead of removing it will have the same effect.
So if you want to talk about EGR on a DIESEL ENGINE, start another thread, do not post a dynograph without telling people that you are talking about a diesel engine since most of them did not notice. You threw many people off by posting that dyno graph which still does not prove anything unless you back it up with the whole story. I can post pictures of dynographs too but that does not prove anything.
James
So if you want to talk about EGR on a DIESEL ENGINE, start another thread, do not post a dynograph without telling people that you are talking about a diesel engine since most of them did not notice. You threw many people off by posting that dyno graph which still does not prove anything unless you back it up with the whole story. I can post pictures of dynographs too but that does not prove anything.
James
I noticed it was a diesel performance shop, and the HP/TQ figures are a bit high even for the almighty (lol) 3vze. Therefore those posts deserve no further response from me, as they contain no useful information to add to this thread.
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