intense

Hey folks,
I just picked up a 90 runner w/262K miles. The primary intended use for this vehicle is towing my 3500# boat.

With the age and mileage on my runner, I fear that the little 3VZE might not be quite up to the task of towing. Although, my intention is to wet-slip the boat in season. Meaning I'll only be towing the boat 3-4 times a year. Still, given all the negative comments I've seen about my engine and factoring in age and mileage, I'm starting to think about either a rebuild or a swap.

If I went the rebuild route, I'd plan on getting another engine and tearing it down. And going with this plan:
-slight overbore on the block (maybe)
-p/p head
-cams (focused on added torque)
-ceramic coated headers
-port match intake manifold
-overbore TB

Pros:
Bolt-in installation

Cons:
Notoriously weak 3VZE....could be just throwing $$$ away.

The other option is to do a swap. Either the 3.4 or the UZ. But I have a number of concerns here:
-Having to adapt the tranny
-Wiring headaches
-Cost

I was hoping someone has been in a similar situation to me and can help me guide me one way or the other.

I've read about lots of people pulling their boats with a 3VZE (or a 22RE even) without issues. So, I don't think I'm too far from adequate power with a built 3VZE. But, am I asking too much out of a built engine. Am I just better off biting the bullet and putting in a bigger engine?

thanks for everyones input
mike

dcg9381

How far do you tow your boat?
I've polished my fair share of turds.. Mainly 22R-series, but I did do a 3.0L once.
You've got a rig with 250+k miles.
I think you're going to spend $400-$800 on machine work for your block.
The overbore isn't going to get you much displacement, just assume it's part of the rebuild process.
You'll need a $400 kit to rebuild the motor.
Cams are around $400.
Port match intake for free.
Overbore TB runs $200-$300, not a good use of funds IMHO.
Headers.. $450
You're looking at over $2k, assuming you do all the work yourself. You're probably looking at $3-$4k, if you had it done.


For that kind of money, I'd be shopping for a low mileage 3.4L... I don't know the implications of the auto tranny, I understand it's more complicated.

The other option would be to sell what you've got, get some $$, add another $2-$3k to that sum and see what you can buy... That's where you'll be in terms of money and you've probably saved yourself a lot of hassle.

The high mileage on the tranny is a concern also.

If you purpose is to tow that boat a short distance a few times a year, drive it until it absolutely dies. Otherwise, sell the 3.0 and buy something more suited to towing - like a Ford/Chevy pickup with a v8... I'd certainly consider those options over going to all the trouble of a rebuild for something that I use a couple of times a year.

suprathepeg

dcg pretty much summed it up. Your runner as a tow rig is probably not the best idea. Now if your also gonna use it as a DD then thats a different story.

First myth to debunk 3.0 is not weak engine, asside from HG problems that can have a long list of causes many having little to do with the engine design. FWIW the 3.4 which is quite advanced in comarison to the 3.0 does have its own issues including HG with the early ones.

Second, unless you find a really nice low milage properly maintained 3.4 the cost of the swap won't be less then the cost of a performanc 3.0 build.

Intake boring including the TB probably won't make any difference in towing.

If your gonna port the head then you will want add EB's OS valves for sure. Not much point in porting the head otherwise.

Other then that your rebuild plan seems to be good.

The bad news is that the heavy runner and the auto tranny will probably make it seem somewhat wasted.

The lexus v8 however would make a great engine for your runner and for towing, not that I would ever want to discourage someone from rebuilding their 3.0

intense

Yeah, I'd stumbled across your rebuild thread. Lots of good info in there.

Judging from the responses, I'll probably just look into some headwork and see if that add enough to assuage my fears.

So, here's my current 'mod' list:
-P/P head
-EB OS valves
-Cams (looking for recommendations here)
-Clean all the gunk out of the intake plenums

With that in mind, can someone tell me where I can find out more about these EB OS valves? Do I need to get higher rated valve springs or anything. I'll be (rather, a shop) will be rebuilding the head anyways.

How about cams? What are my options if I want to improve low-end?

thanks
mike

dcg9381

You might ask Ted himself about the valves: www.engnbldr.com - I think he prefers email communication.

I can't give you a cam recommendation, other than list vendors.. I'd be wanting dyno runs if I was buying cams.

Welcome to the turd polishing club!

Bumpin' Yota

Weasy2k cams, hands down WITH dyno results.

15 peak hp gain with greater gains over stock farther up the rpm scale and about 30tq peak gain with about a 40tq gain over stock at about 2800rpm. The torque curve is flat as hell with his cams, and the hp and tq lines are above oem at ALL RPMs! Add to this a gain of 10% in fuel economy and you cannot loose. Oh and this was with NO OTHER mods done, so if you have a PNP and larger valves you'll pick up a lot more. Basically this thing will equal or surpass a 3.4 when its done.

Im in the middle of that top end rebuild you are speaking of.

suprathepeg

The headwork did have a noticable effect on the bottom end for me. Lexus v8 is a great idea as well. The truth is there are better options out there then the 3.4 now: Diesels, Lexus v8, rebuild the 3.0 etc. I would explore all options, in hindsight I think I might have been happier with a diesel although I love the 3.0.

For towing you just won't go wrong with a 5spd swap or starting with a 5spd truck. you may find yourself towing in 4th a lot which for this engine is fine especially if you do some seriousl upgrades. One thing the 3.0 doesn't like is being lugged which happens a lot with the auto.

mt_goat

The best mod for the 3.0 is lower axle gearing. Especially the 3.0 auto, you almost can't get too low. Even from the factory with stock gearing and tires its not geared low enough. The only time I felt like the 3.0 auto was good power wise was with 5.71 gearing and 33" tires (worn down to 32's).

MonsterMaxx

The problem is the engine and factory electronics limiting the 3VZE's ability.

I just finished a rebuild. Somewhere between $2.5k & $3k.
Other than oversizing the valves and ceramic I made no upgrades - it's already got them all.

End result, it's fast for a 3.slow, but still a 3.slow.

Do the swap
This from someone who's done it the other way

BearsRunner

5spd- 3.4, Auto- 1uzfe, I rebuilt my 3.0 and I wish I would of done the 3.4 swap. I did not discover this site until I had already started my rebuild, I have the 5spd and I get decent power, my gas mileage is like 16-19 miles per gallon. For light towing it is ok, with a 5spd,I couldn't imagine towing with an auto. I am looking into regearing myself. Need more funds, the rebuild cost me close to 3K. I am going to drive her until she dies again.

intense

It cost you that much to just do cams and ceramic (ceramic what, exactly?) If you just did head work. I don't understand how you spent that much.

I'm planning on doing my own labor. I figure:

Headwork: $300-400
Cams: $200-300
Valves: Have no idea
Labor: Whatever I'm worth on the open market

I really think I can pull this off for less than $1K. I plan on starting another thread when I start the project. I've got a line on a another set of heads from another member, so that should help minimize down time.

I'll try to dyno the truck before I start the work. Unfortunately, I only want to dig into the engine once. So, I won't be able to dyno the truck after each mod is installed. It'll just be a before and after number.

I don't suppose you'd want to drive up from Greenville to help with the labor

thanks
mike

intense

Diesel! that's a great idea.....where can I find more info on this? I've only found info on the 3.4 and 1UZ swaps. This would be much more desirable to me than a petrol engine.

While I'd love to swap in a 5 speed (or just buy a truck with a 5 speed), the GF wants to drive the runner, on occasion. Swapping or upgrading her is not an option, either

Realistically, the towing would be a fairly short distance, anyways. Maybe 20-30 miles, one way.

tc

When my 3.0 dies, a 3.4 is going in. Probably supercharged. But I'm at altitude now, and it seems to have made a HUGE difference on this motor (probably related to the poor breathing).

If you're going to do any topend mods to the 3.0, you better do headers first, 'cuz it'll be a lot of money wasted if the trapped heat at the crossover still causes burnt valves...

intense

Yeah, I've read the debate between NWOR and Downey. I'm thinking I'll go with the NWOR....they're just uber-pricey....

snap-on

trust me when i say you get what you pay for. IF/when i by my next and future sets they will ONLY be NWOR dispite the high cost.


I say drive the thing as is till it pukes. Then worry about what you want to do.

but for all you know the 4runner in its current form will do fine.

if the rear end hasnt gotten new springs id HIGHLY recomend it for towing.

and you will ABSLOUTLY need an aftermarket cooler for the auto IMO.

intense

Thanks for that data point. That just reinforces my decision.

I've got a set of Downey rear springs on they're way. And I'm looking into a tranny cooler, too. Does my truck not have one stock? Stupid question, I know. I should probably know this already....

CoedNaked

Has Weasy posted a proper dyno sheet yet for his cams where the torque & hp curves cross at 5252 RPM's? His first posted dyno sheet didn't show them crossing, so it had me wondering. Also curious how distribution is going with his cams, etc.

Bumpin' Yota

tc and Intense - actually the first most bang for the buck mod are larger valves. Next are cams. Lastly headers.

headers give you 10 hp for 700+
Cams give you 20+hp for 400

CoedNaked

Who cares about Horsepower. I want Low end & mid range Torque. Torque moves the truck, Torque is more useable offroad, Torque is more useable for towing/hauling, torque is what I use when driving around town, & having torque means you don't need to rev the crap outta your engine to move it, which ultimately sacrifices reliability by having to rev the piss out of it. If you want HP on the 3vze, get an exhaust shop to make you full exhaust system from the manifold back, with 2 1/4" pipe between the manifold & cat, between the cat & muffler, and from the muffler out. I know a guy who had this - basically the exact exhaust system they have on the stock 3.4's as far as sizing goes, with a high flow cat and dynomax muffler, and he said he lost some low end torque but he could rev the crap outta it and all it did was pull hard to redline. I would be pulling my hair out with an exhaust system like this. The more I think about it, the more I Think that the best exhaust system for torque on the 3vze wouldn't be keeping the stock pipe between the manifold & muffler. It would be to have a 2" fully mandrel bent system from the manifold through the cat, through the muffler, & out. Mandrel bends, & the 1/8" size increase alone would make a huge difference I think, plus a higher flow muffler.

Bumpin' Yota

actually its the area under the torque curve that makes it drivable. This is why youll see a 408 LS1 strocker with a mild cam with a lower HP rating pull the snot out of the same engine with a higher tq/hp rating from off line...until the more aggressively cammed LS1 gets into its power band. Also the higher up on the RPM scale the TQ is the higher the resultant horsepower of the engine. But the 3vze is no gen IV block.... The cams are so bad from the factory its crazy. Same with the valves. Working on them will do nothing but help the engine from off idle to redline.

The valves were sized too small from the factory, and the OEM cams blow. imho

With the cams Im getting you have 145ft lbs at 2500rpm. You tell me how thats not more tq than stock? (>40ft lbs over stock) AND with larger valves youll have even more.

Exhuast youll be lucky to see 10ft lbs imo. Ive done a full cat back and free flowing cat...2.25" Another interesting fact. Your auto's torque converter doesnt hit flash until about 2500rpm or so this contributes a lot to the 3grand power band of the 3.slow... Personally I'd rev the 3.0. Its less of a tq load on the transmission (lower gear) and less overall stress on they cylinders, but at the expense of the bearings... To me it's like whats easier, lifting 400lbs 10 feet or 40lbs 100ft? Its easier on your body to do the longer distance lighter weight....

I want to say EGTs go up when you bog a gasser but im not sure on that.....