SoCalWheeler71

Anbody seen this vid yet?

It's 11mb long, so dial ups stay away...

Anyways, that's the kind of output $50K will get you. I don't think you could do lead-acid with a DC motor for $5-6K, I think it's more like 8, and the range wouldn't cut it in an SUV. You'd need to use a NiMh/AC motor setup, at the least, preferably Li-Ion or Li-Polymer with AC.

premirrider

Alt. Fuels? Read this http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18700750/

dcg9381

I don't know what the correct mixuture point is with propane, but to get 40-50mpg, you'd need it to be 28:1 or so.. I don't think it's that lean.

As Fred mentioned, per unit, propane is less volitile and stores less energy than gas. You'll make less power on the same motor tuned the same way..

What you can do with a less volitile fuel is run a lot of timing, a lot of compression, or do forced induction. The last two really improve engine efficiency, but you're talking about 30-40% improvement (best case).

Propane has one big advantage - it's easy to convert a carb'd vehicle.

In terms of an alternative fuel, it is hydrocarbon based.. but the emissions aren't nearly as nasty as gasoline - so that's some progress.

DaveInDenver

Just about any gasoline engine could run on E85 or even straight ethanol and an EFI truck will adapt pretty well. The problem with using it in a system designed for gasoline is that the ethanol can corrode the rubber and plastic parts. So the problem would probably be injector failures. The rubber lines can be worked around, but stuff like the injector o-rings and seals will fail sooner. Hard to say what the fuel pump, fuel filter and injector internals might do with exposure to high concentrations of ethanol. I don't think it's quite as simple as making the engine just run on it, because it will. It's the long term effects and that's just a science experiment. Plus, don't the Flex Fuel cars have stainless fuel tanks and lines? I wonder if there's a reason for that, maybe internal rust or corrosion? I dunno.

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

Unlikely to get that sort of MPG on 100% propane. I converted my old '74 Landcruiser FJ55 and before would get 14MPG and after a steady 10 MPG. Propane has less BTUs per gallon than gas. I ran a total of 50 gallons of storage and could run 450+ miles before looking for a filling station. A little tricky to find some times (for motor fuel stations). Upside is that it is super clean burning, I basically never changed oil in my '55. Ran synthetic and with the normal 1F engine oil leaks, it was changed perhaps every 10-15K miles and after a few years, that oil was still crystal clear. My dad has been running propane in his '70 Chevy pickup since 1974 and that engine (350 V8) has never been rebuilt, aside from a broken timing chain. Probably has close to 700K miles on it, original bearings and piston rings.

yotasavg

so now on the LC for example, was that a kit that you used or was it all custom?

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

It was basically an off-the-shelf system installed at a local propane distributor shop. I had a Holley 350 carb on the truck in place of the stock Aisin and so a regular Impco mixer and what not bolted right up. Driveability was very good and I had at least the same power as on gas, with some engine work. Probably would have been much better if I were to have bumped up the compression ratio to take advantage of the high octane rating of propane. Had to sell it, though, once CA dropped the smog exemption for propane.

dlbrunner

I looked in to propane for my runner a few months ago. I called a place in phoenix that does conversions and they told me their part supply does not support the 3.slo.

4crawler is right, propane gets less milage than regular gas. I have a 2005 F150 4wd for work with dual fuel, propane and gas. The truck gets better milage by 20% on gas, and has more pulling power. The cool thing about propane, there is no delay or split second hesitation when you floor the gas, with the propane the acceleration is right now.

I think the best alternative fuel option would be Veggie oil. There are places in Texas that will install a JDM Diesel right into a second gen easily. the next step would be to fit the Veggie oil tank and associated stuff.

I have been reasearching this heavily, my next vehicle will be a diesel for conversion, I have not made up my mind if I want a mid 90's full size dodge or ford OR get a Toyota chassis and have an import diesel fitted.

For sure I will be hitting up resturants to take their waste oil. Heck you can get clean veggie oil from supply places for less than regular diesel.

Another The veggie oil can be converted to Biodiesel if you have the reactor at home, which you can pour straight into the stock diesel tank.

Hydrogen is a good idea, but it will not be free. I would even venture to say that in the end the Hydrogen system will cost more than the ideas mentioned above. I have no basis for this, but think about it, the more exotic, the more expensive.

yotasavg

that's a bummer....i'd love to do it. but only after college when i can retire this beast from it's primary duties and really hack into it!

thanks for the info 4crawler!

86toysr5

i accidently but e85 in my truck before if had a 20r in it and it ran like crap.....i could make it over 40 and wouldnt idle

Pest

It takes far greater energy to split the whater molecules into Hydrogen and Oxygen. Far more energy than is produced by burning the Hydrogen. So if you have a tank of water, use electricity from the motor runing on Hydrogen, and eventually (or quite quickly) the motor will stop running from lack of fuel. Not enough energy is being generated to split the water anymore.

CJM

Propane is usually equal to about 100-110 octane or thats what I have read/heard.

As far as getting 50mpg, thats what he said, I would guesstimate it was closer to 30mpg. Its all in the tune really..

thefallman

Once again i love the fact that people take info, (propagated by people who dont want clean fuels), as fact. Once again people are confusing ETHANOL with METHANOL. Methanol is what race cares use and is HIGHLY corrosive. on the other hand Ethanol is not any more corrosive then gasoline or damaging for that matter to seals. I mean jeeze whats it doing to your insides, when you drink vodka (pretty much 90% ethanol), if its really that corrosive

Another Gripe wtf is with E85 i mean any FAQ about Ethanol will tell you it doesnt mix naturally, or stay in solution, with Gas. But does mix with water and stays in solution with water. AKA BEER. So from this i can only assume the reason for mixing Ethanol with Gas is to give it a shelf life which it wouldnt have as straight Ethanol.

4Crawler

iTrader: (3)

Why blended fuel?

From: http://www.e85fuel.com/pdf/ethanol_guidebook.pdf

gametom

there's a book coming out about how you can make alcohal to power your auto's. the name of the book is "alcohol can be a gas" i had a look at a advanced copy it seamed very thouro and should be out soon.

dcg9381

Megasquirt guys are already designing "flex" fuel extensions - two fuel maps and the ability for the hardware to identify between them.

E85 has a different stoich from straight gas. That's why your carb'd jobbie got upset. The carb can't adjust.

EFI will attempt to adjust, within the bounds of what it's allowed to do. There is no real technical documentation on toyota EFI, but most systems don't allow more than 10-20% variation from the stock fuel map.

If you really want to run E85 on a stock ECU - try going to an injector that's 10-15% larger in terms of flow rate. It should come closer to zeroing out the difference between the fuel maps.

A good read:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341

FredTJ

Once again I love the fact that people take info as fact.
Methanol is corrosive, however SO IS ETHANOL.
Ethanol is much more corrosive than gasoline.
That's one of the main problems with ethanol. It can't be transported like normal gasoline through existing networks. Part of it is because it absorbs water and part of it is because it's so corrosive. It has to be transported in stainless containers, which means trucked everywhere.
Is also toxic and pretty easily absorbed through the skin.
Any you talk about drinking, yes, you better believe it screws you up.
Ever have a hangover ? You've just poisoned yourself past what your liver can handle.

E85 is a blend of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. It does NOTseparate, contrary to your belief.
There are two main reasons to mix ethanol with gasoline (and more lesser reasons):
1) To make it so you can't drink it, and thus avoid the massive Federal tax that would have to be paid. The ethanol plants produce E95 (95 % ethanol and 5% gasoline) and then additional gasoline is added to make it E85.

2) Ethanol is harder to ignite than gasoline (one of the main reasons that methanol is used in some forms of auto racing) and the addition of gasoline makes it easier to ignite (in the engine) especially for cold starts.

The only time that you'll have problems with ethanol mixing with gasoline is when the ethanol isn't, virtually, 1005 pure, that is it contains some water.

That's one of the problems with "home production" of ethanol, is getting all the water out of it. You can't distill it pure enough and have to use a compound to absorb the remaining water from it.




Fred

FredTJ

Crap, you don't need a book. There is a TON of information on the Internet regarding home production of ethanol.
There is a whole yahoo.groups for it.
You can get plans for stills from this yahoo/groups, buy parts for the stills, and even buy complete stills.
It's relative simply, but takes time and a Federal permit, which involves inspection of the area where the still is going to be.
It's also not really cost effective to make it yourself, unless you have access to free, or darn close to free, stock and energy (to "fire" the still).




Fred

FredTJ

A larger injector won't help you as the ECU will simply decrease the pulse time to the injector to get the mixture "correct".
It's a very, very simply mod. to the O2 sensor that needs to be done and that's pretty much it.





Fred

FredTJ

You can run E85 on most, stock, EFI injected vehicles with no real problems, later model for sure, as they'll be most likely to have ethanol resistant materials through the fuel delivery system.
You'll get less mpg, considerably less, so you'll have to factor that into the cost that you're paying per gallon of E85.

I've run several vehicles of mine on E85 for months with no problems.
Right now, E85 is too expensive here to run, compared to the price of gasoline.



Fred