GeminiFire

hey guys,
so for ever now ive had this little 20r running my truck, but after months of building a motor myself, a 22r with a mid range cam new from engbldr, weber 32/36 and a headers, i destroyed it by overheating it when it ran out of fluid from a water pump gasket bursting.

So there went a lot of money and even more time and energy into cleaning this thing. i was so bummed and i didnt have enough cash to rebuild again, so i bouth a $225 special on craigslist with about 120,000 miles. started right up once i got it in, but it had a little oil in the water and vice versa. i had this performance head i wanted to run from my motor i destroyed the bottom end on, and that cam so i did a head gasket job on the thing to get those things done. it ran for a few days and started to act up one day when i was driving home. i was so pissed that i reved way to high for about 30 seconds and it overheated on me..

I got it home and over the next few days i readjusted the valves(this cam calls for .007 intake and .009 exhaust, straight from Todd's email). it started up but there was a terrible chatter in the upper end. i found out it was the timing chain being EXTREMELY loose. its been sitting for a few months now and i finally got a new double row timing chain in the mail. when i took the front of the motor apart i decided to do a head job and put the old head back on just incase that was bad from previously overheating.. twice. so last night i finally finished it up. the 225 craigslist special lower end, upper end, that new cam i have, and the weber and headers is whats in there. that lower end should have been fine because when i took the old timing gear out the chain tensioner was completely out of its bore or the part that bolts to the block, so the chain wasnt being tentioned.. i thought ok i found my problem. i assumed the lower end was fine because the compression test was fine right before i overheated it last. i know im making some assumptions here about this lower end but i thought the problem was OBVIOUSLY the chain tensioner..

I finally get it started last night and it runs for 5 minutes with a HORRIBLE metal on metal squeaking sound(like no oil but i specifically made sure it was full and i put a little extra over all the upper end parts, chain, everything and rotated by hand.) i let it warm up figuring maybe there was some parts that weren't lubed all the way and didn't rev it until it warmed up.(to test the rpm range and make sure everything is in check not like to be an asshole by revving more than necessary)

AS SOON as i revved it up and i took my foot off the throttle it came back down to idle speed and when it did there was a horrible CLUNK and the whole motor INSTANTLY stopped and seized. i cant move the crank in either direction and when i start it its definitely not going anywhere.

heres my MAIN question:
My friend Brian said it would be a consistent sound through the rpm range if a bearing was what happened or if it was spun. but this sound would go away and come back and sound a little different every couple of seconds. it was speratic at best. so my question is could it be a thrown bearing? i literally almost cried last night because ive been through 3 motors now with this truck and i have NOT abused it. im feeling really low right now and i guess need some ideas/answers/pick me ups from you guys..

That being said while it was running for 5 minutes the oil immediately turned to a milkshake. i was planning on tuning it and shutting if off then changing the oil with a treatment of seafoam today.. but i guess thats not happening anymore. could that be an issue even for 5 minutes? there couldnt have been much water in there because when i checked the oil right before starting it ti wasnt milky at all on the dip stick. and yes i made sure to use a good non leaking or cut into timing cover. i thought i covered everything RAR!!!


my other question is do you guys recomend using this cam because it seems like all ive had is problems with it. im thinking about just getting a stocker from craigslist and using that for the time being.

Thanks guys.. and HAPPY THANKSGIVING!

TylerH

I would not use a "used" thirty year old part from craigslist. I would just buy a reman from caldwells in springfield oregon. a 20r/22r would probably be around a grand.

wyoming9

iTrader: (1)

If you got enough coolant (antifreeze) mixed in with the oil it just destroys the bearing babbit material.

It is really hard to tell without pulling things all apart and inspecting for signs of damage .

Pretty hard to tell what strange knocking noises are but most likely guess is a rod bearing from lack of bearing material

GeminiFire

Ok thanks guys, TylerH i agree with you but im a starving artist. cant really afford a new motor. although now im going to save up for one.

I still havent had the heart to tear it back down its just so disappointing, but if it is a bearing, do you think its too late to swap bearings now that its totally seized up? im sure it is but i have to ask. at this point if i could throw 20 bucks down for new bearings and even get this thing on the road for a few weeks or months until i can find a way to get a new motor would be awesome. what are your thoughts about that? i realize the crank is probably messed up but even if there was some noise from the wear in the crank if it ran i would be happy for now.

GeminiFire

Ok here is the picture of tensioner as i saw it right after i removed the timing cover. see how i thought this was my problem?


I finally went out this morning and took the pan down to see what happened to those bearings. I found out that 2, 3, and 4 pistons are fine, but the #1 bearing is GONE. ive never seen this before in person but ive heard of "spun bearings" my whole life. so my question is how bad does this look? can i clean up the crank, and the piston arm and just buy a new set of bearings and have this thing be OK? or am i screwed? please keep in mind optimism goes a long way here, it wont help me to have someone say "only buy a new motor" thats simply not possible right now. thinking outside the box would be AWESOME. heres the bearings/piston/crank pics of the bad area.
a good lower half of the piston arm vs the bad one.


This is the crank side from underneath.


and this for those of you who are interested, is why the old tensioner went out. the little stopper piece that stops it from over extending(like it did) broke off probably a long time ago.


hope you guys have some good news for me im totally freaking out...

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

My buddies up near Salem and recently picked up a used Crank at a yard for 60$. He then went back and decided since the crank only needed 10-10 grind and looked really good, to buy the block and all, got it prorated and paid 150$ for the entire/decent condition short block, caps to match the crank/block, etc. Spent about 250$ more for some machining and he's got a solid motor for around 400$ now(plus gaskets). I know you're starving, but if you've done quite a bit of damage to the blocks crank/main journals...AND that CRANK? ..... hmmmmm. If the rest of the kit is in decent shape and you can save the rods/rod-caps, then measure everything out VERY WELL, .... you should be fine for under 500$. I suppose you COULD try salvaging whatever you can in the lower end(block, etc.)....but I wouldn't bother, personally... Broke or not, ya know?

I just went through something not so dramatic but where I had to start over with a fresh block after a full rebuild by a well known Machinist who wound up being a KNOBBBBB! lol.... And, well, even broke, I didn't have much choice. It was do the same thing as my buddy, above, or 3RZ/1UZ/WHATEVER swap and start with a whole new set of different possible problems/a motor I know very little about/and most imporantly,.... NOT ENOUGH MONEY to just, "DO IT", lol.

Sorry man... SUX!

ChefYota4x4

iTrader: (5)

PS> Wish you were down here, near L.A. ...... I'd help ya hunt and grab one for ya cheap.......... 50% off till tomorrow-closing.........

http://www.pickyourpart.com/

GeminiFire

i appreciate that. but i will just be buying a remanufactured long block from those guys in springfield if i cant salvage this one. i just figured it was worth a shot. and when i say i cant afford a new motor im talking like i have 10 bucks in my bank account and even the new bearings and an oil change will be a stretch for me. i dont do the credit card thing.

thanks for the info but what i really need to know is how realistic it is for me to try to hand sand or grind that crank down WHILE ITS IN THE BLOCK as i dont have the money even enough for new gaskets to do a tear down. i mean can i get away with "eyeballing it" enough to just get it smooth and put a bearing back in there?

thanks guys!

dropzone

iTrader: (6)

Hand polishing the crank bearings? seems like it's gonna bust again sooner than later. You are having some bad luck..

peow130

Hand polish it maybe, then run some REAAALLY thick oil.
Maybe go look at the crank on the other engines that you have, and swap those in?

GeminiFire

well how soon? if i can get this thing running for close to 6 months or even a year with light driving i would be so happy. that being said, if this IS possible, how should i go about doing the polishing. aka, what do i use? probably not sandpaper right? or if so something ridiculous like 800 grit. i was relieved to find that it was the bearing and not a thrown rod or anything to do with the bore. meaning i might be able to reuse this block if i ended up rebuilding instead of buying a reman motor eventually.

ocd im definately having some bad luck i cant BELIEVE how much actually. and i only keep getting more and more meticulous about it so im atleast going in the right direction and not getting sloppy.. well until now with the hand polishing crank idea. wheres the best place to get CHEAP bearings for the pistons? i think im going to try it.

im super scared to do this so let me know how YOU would do the hand polishing if you were in my shoes(i know the obvious answer is.. DONT do it but lets say you had a gun to your head)

thanks guys!

GeminiFire

peow, didnt see your post,
good idea on the thick oil, ill probably end up trying that here in the next few weeks. i will definitely let you guys know how it goes down. i just thought of something. that upper half of the bearing/crank/ankle of the piston is going to be a royal PITA to get to when the motor is all put together. but im not about to tear it all down again and replace all the gaskets just to experiment on a motor that i realize is probably toast. oh well ill just go super slow and take it step by step.

thanks for the idea. oh and how thick is too thick? i mean what would you use for oil?

peow130

The thickest on the shelf.
Do you still have a crank from your other engines?
Maybe pull the crank and bearings from those and toss it into yours?

peow130

Also, maybe if you can find a coarse file to take down the highs and lows, or use a carbide file block for taking down hardened edge nicks on snowboards, that would certainly tackle the highs, then gradually go up to a fine sandpaper, like 800-1000 grit, using a block of course.
Dont go deeper than the parent material, just take down the highs.
Try not to have any flat spots.

GeminiFire

I dont have any lower ends or anything from them anymore. i have a bunch of heads and pullies and stuff but thats about it. plus i would strongly consider getting the crank polished professionally if i was planning on taking the crank out. i really dont want to have to pull the motor you know? i just did sooo much work im just totally beat. good idea though. i can get a set of bearings from schucks for 22 bucks. the machine shop thats close to my house has some toyota masters in there that really know their stuff. ill be asking them for advice probably on monday. but yeah at this point im not willing to take that motor out again. if im gonna do that im going to buy a reman lol.

peow130

Maybe, just disconnect trans, slide it back, then drop the whole crank, clutch, flywheel, etc etc out.

GeminiFire

lol id rather take the motor out at that point. i HAAAAATE dealing with tansmissions. ill had polish the crank i think and see how far that gets me. hell its 40 bucks that ill have to save up for(22 for the bearings, and about 20 or so for oil maybe less) figuring that its probably not going to work, but the more i think about it the more im just curious so as an experiment and for those of you in the future that have the same or a similar problem, ill let you know if it really is possible to "hand polish" the crank and get away with it.

that being said, what do you think i should use to polish the crank? and what technique if any should i approach. I.E. should i sand it in a circular direction like your waxing a car, or should i try to achieve this by sanding around the crank as if the sand paper or whatever i use "is" the bearing. does that make sense?

peow130

In all honesty, if you could get the crank out, you'd have a MUCH higher success rate. You won't need to replace the other bearings.

Taken from a post over on hotrodders forum:
And i'll add to this. You need something to lubricate it..
Motor oil, soap, water, thinner, kerosene, even diesel would work.

Basically, a 2x8 with two ends with V's cut in them to hold the crank in place..
You could do this to a JY crank, too, and it'd work better than yours. Consider pulling one from a pull n save, then just hand polishing the cranks. It'd be cheaper than getting them turned, and there would be a SIGNIFICANTLY higher success rate.

If i had a spare crank, i'd ship it to ya man.

GeminiFire

that is very helpful! if this fails it will still only be the #1 cylinder and therefore i wont be worse off than i am right now(with a potentially messed up crank, and piston) so i think its in my personal best interest to attempt this while its still in the block. I appreciate the info and i will probably end up using it because i have a feeling that it isnt going to work. where can i get emery cloth? its been years since ive seen the stuff.

haha yeah i wish you had an extra crank too! the problem is i called the local pick a part here in salem and they dont have a good 22r crank. but like i said i cant afford to go that way anyway.

but im confused.. i dont understand where the tape comes in to play with the rawhide string and the emery cloth. couldnt i just leave the crank in the truck, and while laying on the ground i could just put the emery cloth on the other side of crank(the part that would be hard to get to thats not facing you, and put the string over that and pull back and fourth, effectively smoothing out the back side, then doing it by hand in the front?

the problem is theres tons of tiny chunks of the bearing like MELTED to the crank and the piston pieces so i have to take a soft sanding stone or something on my dremel first before i can do anything "finishy" like smoothing it out with emery cloth.

peow130

Check around on craigslist and see if you cant do some trading. You never know what people will trade. You still have the spare head, right?
Might see if you cant trade the machine shop your good head for them to fix your crank..

Anyways, you pull the crank, take down the high spots with like a file, or something to sharpen a knife.
Then, wrap the crank journal with the emery cloth, then tape it so it stays..
Then you use the string like a pully so that it puts even pressure all over the bearing journal. Think about it, your fingers won't put even pressure across.

You can get away with fixing the crank, if you just pull it. And your chances of it lasting a heckuva lot longer go way up if you fix it like i suggest instead of just leaving it in the engine.


Anyways, back to what i suggested. Check craigslist in your area for people selling 22R PARTS. Not necessarily a crank. Call em up and ask if they have a crank, and explain that you have a spare head, etc etc.