Winch or lockers?
Oct 18, 2006 | 05:48 AM
#61
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Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Fort Collins, CO
In Moab and Arizona, trails are rated out of 5. Around here, those are 8's 9's and 10's, the 4's and 5's are dirt roads.
I would give up my winch before I gave up my locker.
I would give up my winch before I gave up my locker.
Last edited by Flygtenstein; Oct 18, 2006 at 05:49 AM.
Oct 18, 2006 | 06:26 AM
#63
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From: Idaho
I've wheeled (completed) trails in CO rated 4-5 with street tires, street pressure, no armor, and no lockers. Gone a couple places that people with a locker couldn't or i kept up. Not saying i'm above anyone but the trail rating numbers/requirements are kinda far-fetched.
I bought a 9.5ti winch for a rig that i don't even own yet.
Some of us are forced to roll solo... and SELF recovery is #1 in my book. A locker isn't gonna do anything when your stuck with no way out. Not having one does suck but you can imagine any number of bad scenarios when nobody, including yourself has a winch.
AH64ID, 3 times in 3 years makes my winch purchase sound gravey.
I do think the best answer can go both ways. Driver skill? how far are you going to be from civilization? how long? got cell phone service? Are you prepared to stay awhile?
I bought a 9.5ti winch for a rig that i don't even own yet.
Some of us are forced to roll solo... and SELF recovery is #1 in my book. A locker isn't gonna do anything when your stuck with no way out. Not having one does suck but you can imagine any number of bad scenarios when nobody, including yourself has a winch.
AH64ID, 3 times in 3 years makes my winch purchase sound gravey.
I do think the best answer can go both ways. Driver skill? how far are you going to be from civilization? how long? got cell phone service? Are you prepared to stay awhile?
A lot of you guys are missing the point Homer, Rocket, etc. Recovery is #1 in my book. However, there are other means of recovery than a winch. I carry a couple tow straps, a come-along, and a hi-lift with me, I have been stuck in some pretty nasty areas, but those things always got me through and I have wheeled alone.
Think about this though, recovery is #1 for you guys becuase you wheel alone so you want a winch, ok, I get it, BUT, I have wheeled open/open, harder obstacles require you to hammer it, you are bouncing, spinning, and sliding, so now, while you have your trusty winch to get you out, you are risking breakage...oh yeah, and CV's aren't the only thing to break when you start applying lots of torque to the axles and bouncing and spinning. So unless you have a whole parts truck with you, perhaps this is not a good idea. If you start blowing u-joints, ripping tires off the bead, snapping CV's, blowing hubs, twisting up your d-shafts, snapping leaf springs, tweaking shackles, blowing ring and pinions, etc, you are stuck on the trail and your precious winch won't get you out. Had you had lockers, you would have been able to just crawl the obstacle and you would still be safe and if you happened to get stuck in the mud after that, well, bust out the come-along and hi-lift.
I challenge ANY of you to find me a situation that you have been in where I could not get you out with a couple straps, a hi-lift, a shovel and a come-along. It may take longer, but I would put money on it that I could get you out. However, I also would put money on it that I could find places that I can drive straight through that you cannot due to being open/open.
Myself and a couple other members wheeled down into a steep-sided valley and it had rained the previous day, we turned around and hadn't gone 10 ft before we all got stuck, we got ourselves out, but we could not get 10 ft up the trail we came down on, it was like the hillside was 6" of loose mud. A winch would have been really nice, however, using a come-along, we got all four rigs out, admittedly, it took a while, but we did it.
Similar to what Flyg said earlier, there are ways to imitate a winch that work just as well as a winch, if slower, but there is no way that I am aware of to imitate a locker.
Think about this though, recovery is #1 for you guys becuase you wheel alone so you want a winch, ok, I get it, BUT, I have wheeled open/open, harder obstacles require you to hammer it, you are bouncing, spinning, and sliding, so now, while you have your trusty winch to get you out, you are risking breakage...oh yeah, and CV's aren't the only thing to break when you start applying lots of torque to the axles and bouncing and spinning. So unless you have a whole parts truck with you, perhaps this is not a good idea. If you start blowing u-joints, ripping tires off the bead, snapping CV's, blowing hubs, twisting up your d-shafts, snapping leaf springs, tweaking shackles, blowing ring and pinions, etc, you are stuck on the trail and your precious winch won't get you out. Had you had lockers, you would have been able to just crawl the obstacle and you would still be safe and if you happened to get stuck in the mud after that, well, bust out the come-along and hi-lift.
I challenge ANY of you to find me a situation that you have been in where I could not get you out with a couple straps, a hi-lift, a shovel and a come-along. It may take longer, but I would put money on it that I could get you out. However, I also would put money on it that I could find places that I can drive straight through that you cannot due to being open/open.
Myself and a couple other members wheeled down into a steep-sided valley and it had rained the previous day, we turned around and hadn't gone 10 ft before we all got stuck, we got ourselves out, but we could not get 10 ft up the trail we came down on, it was like the hillside was 6" of loose mud. A winch would have been really nice, however, using a come-along, we got all four rigs out, admittedly, it took a while, but we did it.
Similar to what Flyg said earlier, there are ways to imitate a winch that work just as well as a winch, if slower, but there is no way that I am aware of to imitate a locker.
Locker is much more useful if you only have one, any situation. My buddys have to winch places I walk thru because of the locker, never has a winch allowed me to go farther. Yes I like having a winch but if I were to only have one it would be a locker, hands down.. much more usefull tool.
Oct 18, 2006 | 07:35 AM
#64
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In response to the question: Which would I give up? For me, its clear - the locker would go well before my winch.
I may be missing the point, but when I go out to set the camera traps, it's usually just my girlfriend and myself. The abandoned logging roads and cut-lines are usually in the middle of grizzly/cougar country and I am very paranoid about having to walk back (so paranoid that I still carry the hi-lift, come-along, pulleys, chains and winch extension cable). Could I do without the winch? Absolutely. But do I want to? Absolutely not. (Hell, my next purchase is a satellite phone in case my both my VHF and HF radios fail to pick up anyone.)
I think it comes down to recognizing that our rigs are not all designed for the same thing. For those guys who travel in groups and are within 20 miles of civilization, a winch may not be a priority. For those of us who a lot of times end up alone and 70 miles back into the interior of BC or the Alberta Rockies, recovery is the key. To assume that all people have the same needs and priorities is missing the point.
I may be missing the point, but when I go out to set the camera traps, it's usually just my girlfriend and myself. The abandoned logging roads and cut-lines are usually in the middle of grizzly/cougar country and I am very paranoid about having to walk back (so paranoid that I still carry the hi-lift, come-along, pulleys, chains and winch extension cable). Could I do without the winch? Absolutely. But do I want to? Absolutely not. (Hell, my next purchase is a satellite phone in case my both my VHF and HF radios fail to pick up anyone.)
I think it comes down to recognizing that our rigs are not all designed for the same thing. For those guys who travel in groups and are within 20 miles of civilization, a winch may not be a priority. For those of us who a lot of times end up alone and 70 miles back into the interior of BC or the Alberta Rockies, recovery is the key. To assume that all people have the same needs and priorities is missing the point.
Last edited by Homer666; Oct 18, 2006 at 07:40 AM.
Oct 18, 2006 | 08:12 AM
#65
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Joined: Apr 2004
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From: Ashburnham, MA
In response to the question: Which would I give up? For me, its clear - the locker would go well before my winch. the middle of grizzly/cougar country and I am very paranoid about having to walk back (so paranoid that I
I may be missing the point, but when I go out to set the camera traps, it's usually just my girlfriend and myself. The abandoned logging roads and cut-lines are usually in still carry the hi-lift, come-along, pulleys, chains and winch extension cable). Could I do without the winch? Absolutely. But do I want to? Absolutely not. (Hell, my next purchase is a satellite phone in case my both my VHF and HF radios fail to pick up anyone.)
I think it comes down to recognizing that our rigs are not all designed for the same thing. For those guys who travel in groups and are within 20 miles of civilization, a winch may not be a priority. For those of us who a lot of times end up alone and 70 miles back into the interior of BC or the Alberta Rockies, recovery is the key. To assume that all people have the same needs and priorities is missing the point.
I may be missing the point, but when I go out to set the camera traps, it's usually just my girlfriend and myself. The abandoned logging roads and cut-lines are usually in still carry the hi-lift, come-along, pulleys, chains and winch extension cable). Could I do without the winch? Absolutely. But do I want to? Absolutely not. (Hell, my next purchase is a satellite phone in case my both my VHF and HF radios fail to pick up anyone.)
I think it comes down to recognizing that our rigs are not all designed for the same thing. For those guys who travel in groups and are within 20 miles of civilization, a winch may not be a priority. For those of us who a lot of times end up alone and 70 miles back into the interior of BC or the Alberta Rockies, recovery is the key. To assume that all people have the same needs and priorities is missing the point.
Did you not read any further into my post than "you are missing the point"? Becuase you seriously missed the point...again.
The need, as I see it, is the same for everyone, what varies is how hardcore that need is. You need to be able to get where you are going and get back in one peice with as little risk as possible. Breakage IMO, is worse than being stuck and breakage is gained frequently, from trying to go somewhere that is too hard for your truck, you aren't equipped for it. When you break, if you don't have the part, you are walking home, regardless, however, when you are stuck, you can extract yourself and keep going. That is the key IMO. What you are arguing is not which is more logical, you are arguing what you think. Your opinion is one thing, what makes more sense and is more logical is another.
For example, a lot of people lift their rigs and put big tires on it FIRST, but if you want to wheel, this is not logical, sliders, skids, and a locker will get you farther than a lift and big tires will. So it is more logical and makes more sense to armor and lock first, however, people usually do that last. Their opinion is fine, but it is not the best way. Same thing here, your opinion is fine and obviously works for you, BUT it is not the best way. You won't admit it because you don't want to be wrong, however, you have yet to provide any valid facts to oppose my view.
Oct 18, 2006 | 08:56 AM
#66
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From: Arvada, Colorado
yeah.
So you go 70 miles...Cool. I have been 150 miles back, in the desert, with a truck open at both ends, stock tires, stock pressure, stock suspension, and no damn winch.
There is ALWAYS a way to get unstuck. I got stuck. It took a few hours, but i got out. Is a winch handy? You bet. Nesecary? Not at all. Neither is a locker. A locker is a better modification than a winch. Its just not "street cool" like a winch is.
There is some merit to the arguement of location. Out here, on many trails, there isn't a damn thing to winch off of. In the desert, there are even less. A tree strap and winch do a ton of good when you are above timberline.
If you wheel alone, you should be careful to not get on trails that are over your head, in escence, where you aren't going to surely get stuck. However, i understand piece of mind. If you need to clear trees, or whatever, or just worried about being out there for hours, fine.
In the end, buy what you want, its your truck. Ask yourself one question, though:
Do you want to look cool on the street with a winch, or look cool on the trail with a locker, when you aren't annoying everyone else by having to winch your way up every single obstacle?
So you go 70 miles...Cool. I have been 150 miles back, in the desert, with a truck open at both ends, stock tires, stock pressure, stock suspension, and no damn winch.
There is ALWAYS a way to get unstuck. I got stuck. It took a few hours, but i got out. Is a winch handy? You bet. Nesecary? Not at all. Neither is a locker. A locker is a better modification than a winch. Its just not "street cool" like a winch is.
There is some merit to the arguement of location. Out here, on many trails, there isn't a damn thing to winch off of. In the desert, there are even less. A tree strap and winch do a ton of good when you are above timberline.
If you wheel alone, you should be careful to not get on trails that are over your head, in escence, where you aren't going to surely get stuck. However, i understand piece of mind. If you need to clear trees, or whatever, or just worried about being out there for hours, fine.
In the end, buy what you want, its your truck. Ask yourself one question, though:
Do you want to look cool on the street with a winch, or look cool on the trail with a locker, when you aren't annoying everyone else by having to winch your way up every single obstacle?
Oct 18, 2006 | 09:05 AM
#67
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From: Calgary, AB
I agree with Homer. Recovery first.
You may not be able to go as far without lockers, but with lockers you might get stuck far enough and not be able to recover yourself.
And I am not talking about breaking stuff - if you have to go fast to get somewhere - you're probably just not equipped properly to go there. So use the winch to get back home. At least you're not stuck in the woods for days. Or weeks.
You may not be able to go as far without lockers, but with lockers you might get stuck far enough and not be able to recover yourself.
And I am not talking about breaking stuff - if you have to go fast to get somewhere - you're probably just not equipped properly to go there. So use the winch to get back home. At least you're not stuck in the woods for days. Or weeks.
Oct 18, 2006 | 09:33 AM
#68
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From: Fort Collins, CO
I never wheel alone.
Sounds like you are exploring solo. That makes the needs different. The thing is, when you are stuck, alone, recovery IS the focus, not wheeling. In solo situations, a comealong or a Hi-Lift and some straps will replace a winch, just not as easy.
Most people are offended when things are dismissed as street cool. The most important things on my truck, you can't see. It is a trail truck, so that is all right.
I've yet to see someone prove that having a locker gets you stuck in worse places. Most people who try the argument would be safely down the road with only a locker.
Further, the winch encourages you to make bad decisions in this framework, you can afford to be careless because you have an out.
Sounds like you are exploring solo. That makes the needs different. The thing is, when you are stuck, alone, recovery IS the focus, not wheeling. In solo situations, a comealong or a Hi-Lift and some straps will replace a winch, just not as easy.
Most people are offended when things are dismissed as street cool. The most important things on my truck, you can't see. It is a trail truck, so that is all right.
I've yet to see someone prove that having a locker gets you stuck in worse places. Most people who try the argument would be safely down the road with only a locker.
Further, the winch encourages you to make bad decisions in this framework, you can afford to be careless because you have an out.
Oct 18, 2006 | 09:33 AM
#69
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I don't want to leave the impression that my opinion is the best way - but it works me. If you folks think winches are a waste of time and people who have them solely do so for the bling facter, so be it. I am not trying to change your mind only explain my position. It all depends on personal priorities.
Axe - it's great you've been 150 miles intot the desert with a stripped down truck....but please realize that doesn't appeal to ME. I feel better having the recovery equipment.
Intrepid - You state that I am not being logical in my argument - again, if you use my priorities as the foundation, then yes, it is completely logical. If I hold up your opinion to my priorities, then I think your "logic" is irrational.
I'm through with this thread as I can see a risk of it deteriorating into the standard "your an idiot" internet argument.
Axe - it's great you've been 150 miles intot the desert with a stripped down truck....but please realize that doesn't appeal to ME. I feel better having the recovery equipment.
Intrepid - You state that I am not being logical in my argument - again, if you use my priorities as the foundation, then yes, it is completely logical. If I hold up your opinion to my priorities, then I think your "logic" is irrational.
I'm through with this thread as I can see a risk of it deteriorating into the standard "your an idiot" internet argument.
Oct 18, 2006 | 10:02 AM
#70
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From: Arvada, Colorado
Your needs are different. You like to have the safety net. I respect that. I can see where that would be good.
However, if people are looking for a straight wheeling mod, if they're focus is wheeling, then a locker is a must.
Here is the difference. What you do, i would call, exploring. You go out, on your own, into the back country. That is fine. I have done that for years, and i can see where a winch would be a huge priority. What we are refering to is what i think a good portion of folks on this board do, which is to go out and find the gnarliest stuff our trucks can handle (for some this may be a bumpy road, others, an all out rock crawl). So, unless the intended purpose for the truck is an exploration/hunting/solo backwoods truck, a locker is the best bet.
When you are just wheeling to wheel, to see what you can go up, you bring others. I always do, as i'm likely to break, need a tug, or in the extreme case, might injure myself. That is why i see little need of a winch.
However, if people are looking for a straight wheeling mod, if they're focus is wheeling, then a locker is a must.
Here is the difference. What you do, i would call, exploring. You go out, on your own, into the back country. That is fine. I have done that for years, and i can see where a winch would be a huge priority. What we are refering to is what i think a good portion of folks on this board do, which is to go out and find the gnarliest stuff our trucks can handle (for some this may be a bumpy road, others, an all out rock crawl). So, unless the intended purpose for the truck is an exploration/hunting/solo backwoods truck, a locker is the best bet.
When you are just wheeling to wheel, to see what you can go up, you bring others. I always do, as i'm likely to break, need a tug, or in the extreme case, might injure myself. That is why i see little need of a winch.
Oct 18, 2006 | 01:09 PM
#71
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From: Tampa, Florida
im curious as to when this became about what people think about your truck when its on the street. who cares about bling? sure you may not see them, but i personally think a locker is alot more bling than a winch, perhaps thats because i dont have a locker yet though.
i live in florida, its wet and muddy and swampy here... a winch is a good thing to have when you get stuck half way through a swamp. living out where there are actual rocks (and i hate all of you that do ) lockers are def. a better choice because there is rarely a situation where traction wont allow you to clear an obstacle. i have been stuck overnight in the woods, and it sucks, really bad, esp. when you let your woman use the last of the bug spray! i will admit that a hilift or cum-a-long will work in place of a winch, i am just a lazy person who would rather sit in my air conditioned truck and push a button... one day i will get locker's and then i will get more buttons to press!
so i geuss it all matters on what kind of terrain you wheel on and what your priorities are. but these people that are saying winches are bought because they "look cool" is just outrageous. most people dont even know i have a winch, and i dont care if they do or dont know... i just feel alot better knowing its there
there is some merit to the "i have a winch so im going to try this obstacle that i know im going to get stuck in and then use my winch to get myself out" as i have done that more than once.... of course when i get a locker ill be thinking "lets go try this black trail"...
i live in florida, its wet and muddy and swampy here... a winch is a good thing to have when you get stuck half way through a swamp. living out where there are actual rocks (and i hate all of you that do
) lockers are def. a better choice because there is rarely a situation where traction wont allow you to clear an obstacle. i have been stuck overnight in the woods, and it sucks, really bad, esp. when you let your woman use the last of the bug spray! i will admit that a hilift or cum-a-long will work in place of a winch, i am just a lazy person who would rather sit in my air conditioned truck and push a button... one day i will get locker's and then i will get more buttons to press! so i geuss it all matters on what kind of terrain you wheel on and what your priorities are. but these people that are saying winches are bought because they "look cool" is just outrageous. most people dont even know i have a winch, and i dont care if they do or dont know... i just feel alot better knowing its there
there is some merit to the "i have a winch so im going to try this obstacle that i know im going to get stuck in and then use my winch to get myself out" as i have done that more than once.... of course when i get a locker ill be thinking "lets go try this black trail"...
Oct 18, 2006 | 01:41 PM
#73
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From: Tampa, Florida
hey now... dont use my word
like i said, it has to depend on where you live and what kind of wheeling you do. and im glad that someone finally said the word opinion...
i bought a winch before i bought a locker because i go out to the woods to hunt, i use it for alot more than recovering myself. granted i have only needed to use it prob. about 4 times, and know i would have used a locker much much more.
i dont think anyone here has a right to flat out say that one HAS to be put on/in before the other. it all depends on what you do and how you use it
like i said, it has to depend on where you live and what kind of wheeling you do. and im glad that someone finally said the word opinion...
i bought a winch before i bought a locker because i go out to the woods to hunt, i use it for alot more than recovering myself. granted i have only needed to use it prob. about 4 times, and know i would have used a locker much much more.
i dont think anyone here has a right to flat out say that one HAS to be put on/in before the other. it all depends on what you do and how you use it
Oct 18, 2006 | 01:42 PM
#74
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From: Los Osos, CA (we can't agree on crap!)
Oct 18, 2006 | 01:44 PM
#75
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From: Idaho
I have both, but built my rig in the order I reccommend.. locker then winch.. By a difference of almost 3 years...
I am selling my rig and my new one will have a locker first (well it will be a TRD), but am also keeping my winch....
I am selling my rig and my new one will have a locker first (well it will be a TRD
), but am also keeping my winch....
Oct 18, 2006 | 06:17 PM
#77
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 8,875
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From: Longmont, CO
I have lockers, no winch. Molly has a rear locker, front trutrac and a winch. I would trade that winch for a front locker in her truck RIGHT NOW (and it's a NICE winch - 9.5ti!)
Locker will get you farther, in more control, with less chance of breakage, and there is NO alternative.
Winch will get you unstuck, but you don't need it if you either don't get stuck, or have enough traction to back off. There are NUMEROUS alternatives to a winch, all of which you should carry even if you DO have a winch...
Just my $0.02
Locker will get you farther, in more control, with less chance of breakage, and there is NO alternative.
Winch will get you unstuck, but you don't need it if you either don't get stuck, or have enough traction to back off. There are NUMEROUS alternatives to a winch, all of which you should carry even if you DO have a winch...
Just my $0.02
Oct 18, 2006 | 06:33 PM
#79
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cheese, you're a nutshell...
to be honest, the question was about NON-selectable lockers or a winch.
i am from the camp that believes that you should do things once, and do them right to begin with.
therefore, when choosing between a set of NON-selectable lockers, front and rear, to be used in Wisconsin, i said that my choice would be a winch first.
the reason was that a winch is the same price as the set of non-selectables. the ARB's are obviously out of the current price range, and therefore aren't an option here.
i then said to save up for DUAL arb's.
i have all three- winch and dual arb's.
i got my rear arb, then my winch, then my front arb. i liked it in that order. i wheeled open, learned the limits, got the rear locker, wheeled more, learned the limits, got a winch cause i wheeled alone and i got a smokin' deal on it anyway, then i immediately followed that with a front arb and a regear. i paid for the install on the rear twice. i don't advise that. however, if you're going to regear, it's silly to NOT put an arb up front while the case is open. it's not cheap, but it's cheaper than doing it over again later.
what would i give up? my winch - definitely. no way i'd give up my lockers. i'd give up 33's and my lift before i'd do that.
to be honest, the question was about NON-selectable lockers or a winch.
i am from the camp that believes that you should do things once, and do them right to begin with.
therefore, when choosing between a set of NON-selectable lockers, front and rear, to be used in Wisconsin, i said that my choice would be a winch first.
the reason was that a winch is the same price as the set of non-selectables. the ARB's are obviously out of the current price range, and therefore aren't an option here.
i then said to save up for DUAL arb's.
i have all three- winch and dual arb's.
i got my rear arb, then my winch, then my front arb. i liked it in that order. i wheeled open, learned the limits, got the rear locker, wheeled more, learned the limits, got a winch cause i wheeled alone and i got a smokin' deal on it anyway, then i immediately followed that with a front arb and a regear. i paid for the install on the rear twice. i don't advise that. however, if you're going to regear, it's silly to NOT put an arb up front while the case is open. it's not cheap, but it's cheaper than doing it over again later.
what would i give up? my winch - definitely. no way i'd give up my lockers. i'd give up 33's and my lift before i'd do that.
Last edited by bamachem; Oct 18, 2006 at 06:43 PM.
Oct 18, 2006 | 07:59 PM
#80
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From: Albuquerque, NM
Order of modification:
Rear Locker
Front True Trac
Winch
Crawler
Front Locker
I would loose the winch before I would give up the locker.
My buddy just bought a new Tundra. Guess what his first mod will be? A front Locker. I figure with a factory LSD in the rear and a front locker he will be able to go anywhere he will ever want to go. The truck will be used mostly for hunting and general ranch duties.
