BAH. If you know how to drive, you won't break crap IFS. I ran a lock right up front in IFS for months with zero issues. Worked like a charm, never broke anything.

 

I say skip the lunchbox style locker, throw in a detroit, get used to it, and call it done. I have had the detroit in for about 7 months or so and love it. No ratcheting sounds and you wont have to worry about breaking.

 

No Slips are quiet too, and never had one break or wear (I had front and rear No Slips).

Chances are, the Detroit is stronger than anything else in the axle, which is fine. But unless you upgrade the strength of other componants in the axle (alloy shafts, etc.), the strength of the Detroit is basically a moot point.

So why spend more money for a Detroit and not spend more to upgrade the rest of the drivetrain?

Most people don't need that kind of strength. You will most likely have something else break before a No Slip, Lock Right, or Aussie Locker, or the factory carrier. Lunchbox lockers are usually strong enough for the biggest tires the axle can take and typically will stand up to most anything except the most extreme offroad driving.

Unless you need to change the gears, then the No Slip is a less expensive option. Not only does it cost less than the Detroit, but there's also no labor cost (or the cost of special tools). And the Lock Right or Aussie is even less expensive still than the No Slip. But I would get the No Slip because there's basically no wear.

And by the way, because a locker can send 100% of available torque to the wheel with the most traction (an open differential can send no more than 50% while a limited slip will typically send about 55% to 70%), there is a greater chance of breaking things such as axleshafts and CV joints, regardless of what some people think.

Plus, due to the extra backlash that a locker needs to operate properly, and the effect of the locker "locking" when the vehicle straightens out after a turn, there is shock load.

This can be minimized by controlling the throttle and using the right technique, but it can happen.

 

I've got aussies F&R and haven't regretted it yet. I also haven't driven in snow but like the original poster, my rig isn't daily driven. It sees some street time but that usually to drive to and from the trail if I can't get my hands on a truck and trailer

 

This is not true.

A locker splits the torque between wheels on an axle, each gets "50%" say since percentages are important. It doesn't matter if it is in the air or on pavement.

It is not what I think, it is what I know, thanks.

 

Don't confuse torque with rotation speed.

With a locker, if one tire is in the air and the other on pavement, the one in the air will turn, but since there is nothing for it to push against (no traction for that tire), then there is no nothing resisting that turning to generate torque. No torque on that locker coupler half, axle shaft, etc. ZERO PERCENT TORQUE, PERIOD.

Therefore 100% of the available torque is sent to the tire that's on the ground, and that torque is what provides the motive force for the vehicle.

If both an open differential and locker always split torque 50/50, then how could a locker possibly make both wheels turn the same speed in a situation where the open differential would have one tire spinning and the other tire not spinning?

It's very easy to understand. I've read many magazine articles, website locker FAQs, etc. that say so.

You mean to say that all of those sources are wrong? Below I've supplied 2 links that say so.

Here's a link to House of Thud that explains it almost too simply, but it does talk about lockers transferring up to 100% torque to the wheel with traction:
www.houseofthud.com/differentials.htm

Here's another link to Wikipedia that seems to explain torque transfer better:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_differential

And a quote from the Wikipedia link above:

"A locking differential is designed to overcome the chief limitation of a standard open differential by essentially "locking" both wheels on an axle together as if on a common shaft while still allowing them to rotate at different speeds when it is required (such as when negotiating a turn). This forces both wheels to turn in unison, regardless of the traction (or lack thereof) available to either wheel individually. An open differential will cease the transmission of torque to one wheel if the opposite wheel has little or no traction. This may occur if one wheel comes into contact with mud, snow, or ice, or if the wheel is somehow removed from contact with the road after encountering an obstacle or area of soft ground. In such a situation, an open differential will continue to spin the wheel with the least amount of traction but will transmit little or no power to the wheel that has more solid traction. Basically, it will transmit only as much torque to both wheels as the wheel with the least amount of traction can sustain. This can result in the vehicle failing to deliver enough torque to the drive wheels to keep the vehicle moving forward, at which point it will be stuck. A locking differential solves this problem with its capability of delivering 100% of available torque to the wheel with the most traction."

Now, what was that comment about what you know?

 

I know my ARB's don't really care about rotational inertia and torque or Wikipedia links.

This is horrible.

How does a locker turn both tires if 100% of available torque is at the wheel with the traction? That makes it sound like it is some active computer thing.

How can 100% go to two wheels?

Keep sharing the knowledge.

 

I read House of Stud magazine. The last issue was pretty wicked. The whole issue was dedicated to the taint.

 

I understand what William is saying about the torque.

I personally would prefer a LSD up front verses an auto locker. Thats just me. Some people don't mind the steering, I do. I'd save the full locker for a trailered rig.

 

drew, do you have any experience with a lock-rite in the front of any rig at all?

I had ZERO issues with steering in 4wd with the lock rite, on my IFS rig. Hell, I had ZERO issues with the lock-rite, period.

Limited slips are CRAP. Unless your rig came with one stock, don't throw money away on a limited slip.

I don't even like limited slips on cars....the factory (although viscous) was worthless on my 400whp 350z.

 

The fact of the matter is that driveline components are much better able to handle the extra power that can be delivered by a locker since it is applied smoothly and steadily.

You are more likely to break components with an open diff because it allows the wheels to spin up when they break traction and then come slamming to a halt when they get traction. This is unavoidable if you want to make the obstacle.

I have 'wheeled some HARD stuff with ARB's front/rear and haven't broken a CV.

 

Regardless or what your ARBs care about, they always split torque 50/50 when they are unlocked (because they are an open diff when unlocked), and will send 100% of the torque to one wheel when that wheel is on the ground and the other off the ground when locked, and will split the torque when locked somewhere between 50/50 and 100/0 when both wheels have traction.

If you don't understand how I and the links explain it, then that certainly isn't my fault. Don't shoot the messenger.

This is horrible? How? Explain to me how the truth about differential torque transfer is horrible. I provided the links because I figure they would help explain it better than I can, and they also help prove me right, and you still disagree. That's the only horrible thing I see here.

A computer isn't necessary to make torque transfer changes. Torque transfer changes with a locker because the traction that one tire has compared to the other changes. Does that help make it easier to understand?

How can 100% go to 2 wheels? Each wheel won't get 100% at the same time. I never said that. The links never said that. But with a locked locker the total going to both wheels will add up to 100%. It's simple math: 50% + 50% = 100% (when both tires have the exact same amount of traction), 65% + 35% = 100% (one tire has more traction than the other), 100% + 0% = 100% (one tire on the ground, one tire in the air). You do understand simple math, don't you?

All I did here was simply try to clear up a misunderstanding or misconception by explaining the facts and providing links. I'm not here with the intention of offending anyone and I apologize if I did so. But I see no reason why you are responding to me in a negative and seemingly derogatory way.

 

that does not make sense to me. Please explain how my locker knows when a wheel is off the ground or not?


Here is why this makes absolutely no sense to me. I have seen an ARB completely dissassembled and assembled right before my eyes. Therefore, i believe that when i push the button on my dash, and apply air pressure to the carrier, the internal components move, and "lock" causing my rear and front diffs to be come spools. This is effectively like having ONE axle, not two. So, there is no splitting of anything. My driveshaft spins, it turns my pinion gear, which turns my ring gear, which turns my axles, at the same rate, at the same time, with the same speed.

Now, i also see in the wikipedia link, and from your descriptions, that you associate torque with wheels being in contact with the ground. While i agree that there is torque there, i am confused as to why we care about this? I always thought the torque we cared about was the torque from the motor, which is coming down the driveshaft. That torque is the same whether one or two wheels is on the ground. Soo, as i see it, my ARB, when locked, will split the driveshaft torque 50/50, while the torque on my axle shaft from my wheels varies upon terrain.

So, perhaps i am confused, but i see two torques on my axle shafts. One from my locker and my driveshaft, the other from my wheels.

Please explain further, as i'd like to understand this.

 

the idea of a locker is that equal torque is distributed to the wheels in the case that one wheel loses traction it does not steel the torque from the wheel under load.

Percentages don't matter, what matters is lockers equalize the torque distribution.


BTW, with a locker, William, if one wheel loses traction, it will still spin at the same rate of speed as the wheel under load because the locker does not send any extra torque to the wheel under load, it merely equalizes the distribution and nothing more.

 

The only way equal torque is distributed by a locker to both wheels is when both wheels have the exact same amount of traction.

Other than that, lockers don't equalize torque distribution. They equalize speed. An open differential, however, always has equal torque (50/50) transferred to each wheel, even when wheel speed varies.

With an open differential, if one wheel has no traction the torque is the same on both wheels, and that torque amount is zero, which is why the tire with traction cannot produce motive force to move the vehicle.

A locker fixes the problem and allows the wheel with traction to recieve torque so it produces motive force. The wheel with traction produces motive force because it recieves torque.

I know that with a locker the wheel with the load (traction) spins the same speed as the wheel without traction. As a matter of fact, I said in a previous reply "Don't confuse torque with rotation speed." They aren't necessarily proportional.

Maybe an easier way to understand this is to try a simple experiment: Extend one index finger. Rotate that hand so that the tip of the index finger rotates. It took no torque to rotate the finger.

Now take your other hand and grab the tip of the index finger. Now try to rotate that finger. Now it takes torque to rotate the finger because there is resistance to the rotation.

Guess what? You basically just "transferred" torque to your finger tip when you grabbed it. I know it sounds silly, but there's an analogy here.

Now imagine the hand that grabbed the finger tip as being a tire that has traction, with the finger being the axle shaft. Then imagine the finger when it was not being grabbed as being another axle shaft connected to a tire without traction, with a locked locker in between the 2 fingers (shafts).

It takes torque to turn the tire with traction, and no torque to turn the tire without traction.

Again, the tire with traction recieves all of the torque, and the tire without
any recieves none.

I hope that helps ya'll understand.

And one more thing: Percentages DO matter. If that 100% of torque going to the wheel with all of the traction causes it to recieve enough foot pounds of torque to cause an axleshaft to twist in two, then maybe you need to upgrade to a hardened alloy shaft, a larger diameter shaft, etc., that can handle more torque. There's a chance that the factory shaft was designed for an open differential which only transfers 50% of availabe torque.

It helps to know things like this if you want to modify a 4wd vehicle the right way so that it won't suffer breakage off road, doesn't it?

I can understand someone disagreeing because they don't understand, or because they've been fed a bunch of BS. But I found 2 links that explain what I've been trying to explain, so obviously this isn't something that I'm making up. I could probably find more links, but I see no need to.

Goodnight.

 

who cares..percentages schmercentages. do i care if 33.333333% of my torque is going to opposite corners of my truck and the other 66.66% is going to the other? not really no. all i care is that my lockers work.

lockers do what they're supposed to do. spin both wheels at the same time.

oh..btw, open diffs will only have 50/50 split torque if they've got the exact same amount of traction (ie: on flat tarmac) . if one tires in mud and the other on gravel..it may only be 70/30...or was it 69/29. maybe it was 43/57? hmmm...which one? 12/88? 99/1? 44/56? does it matter? does anyone care?


not really...but i do understand where youre coming from...

what he means is that:

when locked, both wheels are theoretically affixed to the same shaft (think spool but with one long straight axle ring geared in the center instead of two with a differentiating carrier between them). one is in the air, one is on the ground. both spin yes, but because they are on the same shaft (theoretically speaking). however, torque is the twisting motion and we all know you cant twist anything without resistance to one end. kinda like holding the tip of your finger with one hand while the other hand is twisting the held finger via rotating wrist.

...but you cant twist something thats already moving along with what youre twisting on (wheel in the air)...THERFORE, its just along for the ride of the affixed axleshaft...which is applying torque to the only thing thats meeting resistance which is...THE OTHER TIRE.

the resistance (ground on the tire) is what provides the traction. so the tire in the air? sure its spinning, but only because its on the same shaft as the one thats on the ground. is it getting torque applied to it? no. why? because that theres no resistance to it.

get it? got it? good.

 

I did not have time to read all this crap but William, your points are simply academic and worthless to real world wheeling and I think you are confusing people and not helping anyone.

Plain and simple. Open sucks off road. Limited slips are a waste of money. For the front go selectable if you can afford it, if not get an auto locker and don't worry about "hard to turn" and enjoy the superior traction you have over unlocked rigs...

geez...

 

Well, i don't understand. I do not understand how my locker decides where the torque goes, i do not understand how we can make the analogy of it being like one solid shaft, yet the differentiate between the two shafts. Its either one shaft or two right? Ah well.

However, the way i see it, we can all sue the living crap out of locker manufactuers who advertise 50/50 torque split with their products. Or not?

 

1 shaft when spooled/locked, and 2 when open. everyone here DOES know what a spool is...right?

simple really...

 

My points explaining how a locker does what it does might help someone understand why a locker could twist an axleshaft in two, which is how the subject came up. I only tried to elaborate further because people started disagreeing with fact, plain and simple.

And if someone can understand and decides to upgrade to stronger shafts or a stronger axle that might not fail, then it's not useless to the real world of wheeling. Why do you think manufacturers make stronger alloy axle shafts? Because there is a need, and that need tends to surface when a locker is installed (among other factors).

If someone is confused, then it's not my fault unless I just didn't speak in the right terms. I tried my best, and even posted links. They most likely are confused because they just don't understand, which isn't my fault.

Apparently some do understand.